Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)
On the grounds of teaching them that we can deal with them if they make reasonable, non-disenfranchising demands.
On the grounds of teaching them that we can deal with them if they make reasonable, non-disenfranchising demands.
BoSPaladin
The Paladin
No, because we're not letting yellow zoners die. IF are outnumbered 2 to 1 by the socialist parties. Then we have the explicitly pro yellow zone party which is competitive. and a bunch of our for UYL voters have made the jump to militarists/devs/socialists.
'Letting yellow zoners die' isn't something we're interested in letting happen. Even the hypothetical of building segregated housing doesn't go so far as letting yellow zoners outright die. And overwhelmingly, even among those who want to acknowledge IF their segregation policies get an overwhelming HELL NO.
Most yellow zoners are in other parties, who we're doing plenty for. Like. It would be fairly easy to create a Developmentalist/militarist/Starbound bloc to force a majority in parliament and screech that the socialists and minor parties can go play hopscotch. But we're not doing that.
Every plan so far we try to make massive supermajorities. IRL governments and populations would kill to have the kind of representation we aim for and casually give out.
The risk of radicalisation from the yellowzoners is slim to nil. Excepting of course any outright nod infiltrators who are already here. And in point of fact several nod attacks have very pointedly attacked the open hand party of former nod and yellowzoners who wish to work with GDI. The people we have, have largely fled nod and want to try and make GDI work. Something we're also trying to do and making our best effort at seeing to their needs and wants.
IF radicalisation is unique, because unlike the free market party who pulled their necks in and are largely trying for actual sensible goals that are workable within the broadly socialist political and economic enviroment of GDI. (still trying to sneak through removing regulations, but honestly there's some problems we've seen in the updates themselves that the regulations are making it hard for regular people to start small businesses so there's possibly some room for some relaxation of the regs)
But meanwhile IF has not done that softening of rhetoric, is still asking for obviously zonist policies. And have been locked out of a ruling mega-coalition for multiple election cycles by now ever since the hawks split, while parties smaller than them have had their needs met. Now, depending on which way this vote goes at best IF has a couple of minor promises for stuff other parties want too and possibly the fortress towns that the treasury and military are interested in, us more so for the green zone tib mining expansions. But at worse, they face being locked out of power for another 4 years.
The biggest factor leading to potential increasing radicalisation for IF, namely being obviously and explicitly locked out of ruling coalitions for years. Is simply not a factor for any other party. Quite the opposite in fact in that we make it a point of pride to try and make promises to small parties.
'Letting yellow zoners die' isn't something we're interested in letting happen. Even the hypothetical of building segregated housing doesn't go so far as letting yellow zoners outright die. And overwhelmingly, even among those who want to acknowledge IF their segregation policies get an overwhelming HELL NO.
Most yellow zoners are in other parties, who we're doing plenty for. Like. It would be fairly easy to create a Developmentalist/militarist/Starbound bloc to force a majority in parliament and screech that the socialists and minor parties can go play hopscotch. But we're not doing that.
Every plan so far we try to make massive supermajorities. IRL governments and populations would kill to have the kind of representation we aim for and casually give out.
The risk of radicalisation from the yellowzoners is slim to nil. Excepting of course any outright nod infiltrators who are already here. And in point of fact several nod attacks have very pointedly attacked the open hand party of former nod and yellowzoners who wish to work with GDI. The people we have, have largely fled nod and want to try and make GDI work. Something we're also trying to do and making our best effort at seeing to their needs and wants.
IF radicalisation is unique, because unlike the free market party who pulled their necks in and are largely trying for actual sensible goals that are workable within the broadly socialist political and economic enviroment of GDI. (still trying to sneak through removing regulations, but honestly there's some problems we've seen in the updates themselves that the regulations are making it hard for regular people to start small businesses so there's possibly some room for some relaxation of the regs)
But meanwhile IF has not done that softening of rhetoric, is still asking for obviously zonist policies. And have been locked out of a ruling mega-coalition for multiple election cycles by now ever since the hawks split, while parties smaller than them have had their needs met. Now, depending on which way this vote goes at best IF has a couple of minor promises for stuff other parties want too and possibly the fortress towns that the treasury and military are interested in, us more so for the green zone tib mining expansions. But at worse, they face being locked out of power for another 4 years.
The biggest factor leading to potential increasing radicalisation for IF, namely being obviously and explicitly locked out of ruling coalitions for years. Is simply not a factor for any other party. Quite the opposite in fact in that we make it a point of pride to try and make promises to small parties.
The way I see it, Initiative First isn't saying rude things on Twitter or in back rooms. That's just whatever. But they're not just being racist in polite company. They thought long and hard for four years, and the cream of their intellectual crop came back and openly presented to the floor of Parliament Bill #1488 to Bring Back Segregation Except Make It Mandatory and Planet-Wide.
There's basically no comparison in any modern democracy. That is absurdly beyond the pale, even your usual right-wing boogeymen like the Republicans/AfD/RN/UKIP/[insert personal boogeyman here] aren't openly and loudly pushing legistlation that unpersons 20% of the country's citizenry overnight. Or at least, sticking to those demands on Twitter. Not writing them up in legal terminology and submitting them for official legal consideration before state organs.
If a group with ideas and goals like that is anti-government, then the system is working as intended as far as I'm concerned. "We should unperson 20% of my fellow citizens" is not an acceptable idea to propose in a democratic society, especially not for a bunch of bitter Karens that're outnumbered like 4:1 by the people they're trying to shit all over. The government should be anti-them and they should be anti-government. That is deeply antisocial behavior on par with at least robbery, assault, etc. and we're not complaining about the poor oppressed domestic assault committers not being welcome in polite society. Antisocial behavior that's toxic to the body politic needs to be punished, not rewarded.
There's basically no comparison in any modern democracy. That is absurdly beyond the pale, even your usual right-wing boogeymen like the Republicans/AfD/RN/UKIP/[insert personal boogeyman here] aren't openly and loudly pushing legistlation that unpersons 20% of the country's citizenry overnight. Or at least, sticking to those demands on Twitter. Not writing them up in legal terminology and submitting them for official legal consideration before state organs.
If a group with ideas and goals like that is anti-government, then the system is working as intended as far as I'm concerned. "We should unperson 20% of my fellow citizens" is not an acceptable idea to propose in a democratic society, especially not for a bunch of bitter Karens that're outnumbered like 4:1 by the people they're trying to shit all over. The government should be anti-them and they should be anti-government. That is deeply antisocial behavior on par with at least robbery, assault, etc. and we're not complaining about the poor oppressed domestic assault committers not being welcome in polite society. Antisocial behavior that's toxic to the body politic needs to be punished, not rewarded.
- Location
- The Underdark
The range between minimum cost and maximum cost is a few thousand points, But as a midrange estimate, call it 10kish. If you are going all space commieblocks, it is significantly lower. If you are going full bore luxury, it is a fair bit higher.
- Location
- Alaska
I don't think IF has ever been shown as reasonable or open to criticism. They were a reaction to Granger's decision to massively redistribute the wealth of the blue zones to deal with the economic and ecological collapse. Initiative First wants the blue zones locked back down, the yellow zoners out , and more fortress towns and guns and military spending to keep them away. They never tried to hide it , and I think it's dangerous to normalize it.
I was guessing it could lead to radicalization from the yellow zoners because we're also showing that GDI is willing to make concessions to the party that wants them dead.
I was guessing it could lead to radicalization from the yellow zoners because we're also showing that GDI is willing to make concessions to the party that wants them dead.
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Both of you are making assertions unsupported by evidence. We should be getting actual data about IF soon, and until then I will not be continuing an argument where one side refuses to examine their premises.
- Location
- Norway
Staff Notice - Please consider your comparisons more carefully.
Depending on the exact implementation details of the one-line summary we have, there may be a close comparison in several modern democracies: proposals for covid lockdown bills, frequently bipartisan, that would "unperson" (your hyperbole, not mine) a lot more than 20% of the country's citizenry overnight. From a certain point of view, Initiative First is proposing to lockdown people who may be carrying the political equivalent of a plague, not through any fault of their own, but because they might be dangerous to the rest of us.
BoSPaladin
The Paladin
While the result, unquestioningly is segregation, the reasoning in between GDIonline and what intel we can get from the updates. Is, for a lot of Initiative first, it's not so much "Segregate the yellow zoners." As it is "If are promising me specifically priority for nice housing." Along with "Nod committing terrorist attacks, I want to be able to go to/send my kids to school without worrying about whether or not a random student will explode into a cloud of knives and kill everyone they can reach."
In a vacuum. Wanting to be safe, and wanting to have a nice home are reasonable asks. The kicker that drives them into the uncacceptable category is that they're asking for these things at the expense of others. All of the other parties who want arcologies? We can and will do our best. But it's when they demand specifically for 'native' blue zoners anyway that we flip to nope.
But quite honestly, for most, it's ordinary selfish behaviour, not necessarily a far right extremist platform of hating 'others'.
There's racists we can safely ignore. But the ordinary swing voters I do believe we can reach by promising them security in the form of forts and InOps funding and creating regular arcologies for better housing and we'll be able to consistently keep noping the actual racist policies. Because for better or worse IF did come from a split in the Hawks who were a major, popular mainstream party and have a bunch of ordinary legacy voters as a result of that.
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
So, this is my primary preferred plan because it does provide the most number of spinoffs and it's a plan that's making me deride the word flexibility because making it too flexible is just too tyrannical and authoritarian for my tastes that wants to reduce the democratic mandate. It's also because I'm always perplexed at Simon's insistence that the Division of Alternative Energy is the great Satan which really isn't and will help offload dice to produce consistent and tangible effects such as more energy and is politically good sense to provide more leadership positions in the bureaucracy to prevent accusations of the Treasury trying to do fief building and suborning the rest of the government. Because aside from politicians, bureaucrats can be extremely petty if they don't have a lot of methods for promotion.
But if I must...
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
I don't really feel the need to promote Initiative First from their political exile when the cordon sanitaire is still strong because their zonist philosophy if normalized in political discourse may turn us to Denmark whose Islamophobia became an entrenched and wildly popular discourse in political circles where even stripping a person of citizenship to eventually lead him to the death penalty in Morocco does not bring me confidence that the other departments of the GDI will be much more lenient to the Yellow Zoners if they need parliamentary support and the swinging vpte happened to be from Initiative First. Like I could see Security and Services having to do some projects that will be seen as discriminatory in its implementation even if it is more subtle than what Initiative First wanted since they can spin it as something relevant to the security of GDI as a whole.
I don't really see why we would do this because handing them a win shows that their ideology is relevant to the government and the concerns of zonists is actually a concern founded in that even our security state is not enough to fend off Noddist hordes that want conquer, loot, and rape the blue zones since they can clearly say Europe has been experiencing a large spate of terrorist attacks that can't be thrawted with how InOps is also forced to administer millions of background checks of millions of the unwashed yellow zoner masses entering our borders because of the risks to security they are.
Sure, I'm certain the Treasury won't be discriminatory but the other departments are not us and the healthcare system shows the difference of expectations a blue zoner and a yellow zoner have on many things. Which may lead to like how the Danes did the unintentional or mask on intentional discriminatory practices that will certainly hinder yellow zoner parity and form an underclass that we might internally exile to some of the more less hospitable areas under GDI civilian control to prevent ghettosization of important tier 1 areas that are necessary for the continued survival of GDI.
So, this is my primary preferred plan because it does provide the most number of spinoffs and it's a plan that's making me deride the word flexibility because making it too flexible is just too tyrannical and authoritarian for my tastes that wants to reduce the democratic mandate. It's also because I'm always perplexed at Simon's insistence that the Division of Alternative Energy is the great Satan which really isn't and will help offload dice to produce consistent and tangible effects such as more energy and is politically good sense to provide more leadership positions in the bureaucracy to prevent accusations of the Treasury trying to do fief building and suborning the rest of the government. Because aside from politicians, bureaucrats can be extremely petty if they don't have a lot of methods for promotion.
But if I must...
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
I don't really feel the need to promote Initiative First from their political exile when the cordon sanitaire is still strong because their zonist philosophy if normalized in political discourse may turn us to Denmark whose Islamophobia became an entrenched and wildly popular discourse in political circles where even stripping a person of citizenship to eventually lead him to the death penalty in Morocco does not bring me confidence that the other departments of the GDI will be much more lenient to the Yellow Zoners if they need parliamentary support and the swinging vpte happened to be from Initiative First. Like I could see Security and Services having to do some projects that will be seen as discriminatory in its implementation even if it is more subtle than what Initiative First wanted since they can spin it as something relevant to the security of GDI as a whole.
I don't really see why we would do this because handing them a win shows that their ideology is relevant to the government and the concerns of zonists is actually a concern founded in that even our security state is not enough to fend off Noddist hordes that want conquer, loot, and rape the blue zones since they can clearly say Europe has been experiencing a large spate of terrorist attacks that can't be thrawted with how InOps is also forced to administer millions of background checks of millions of the unwashed yellow zoner masses entering our borders because of the risks to security they are.
Sure, I'm certain the Treasury won't be discriminatory but the other departments are not us and the healthcare system shows the difference of expectations a blue zoner and a yellow zoner have on many things. Which may lead to like how the Danes did the unintentional or mask on intentional discriminatory practices that will certainly hinder yellow zoner parity and form an underclass that we might internally exile to some of the more less hospitable areas under GDI civilian control to prevent ghettosization of important tier 1 areas that are necessary for the continued survival of GDI.
To slightly break my promise, but addressing an issue of fact:
Arguably, Initiative First is being less extreme than the United States was during WW2. (Japanese internment camps)
- Location
- ?????????
By the way, I didn't comment on this before but god the audacity of this shit. 50% of their proposal are Zonist garbage. Specialized(read: segregated) Argologies, Removing YZs from higher education, deregulation(read: Create an underclass of YZers), and of course, let IF be in charge to do all manner of shit.
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BoSPaladin
The Paladin
We could go one further and note that the United states is putting unaccompanied migrant children in 'camps' right now.
I will point out, Notably we can pick the successor from among IF. So if we were to pick one of the only mildly opposed 25 who is happy with for example stepping down and any other 2 of this list we could shake up Initiative firsts internal politics by placing a moderate in a place of power.
- [ ] Nominate an Initiative First Deputy and Commit to stepping down after this term
- [ ] Complete all remaining phases of Fortress Towns
- [ ] Complete four phases of SADN
- [ ] Complete at least four Ground Forces Zone Armor Factories
- [ ] Spend at least one free die on Military every turn
They literally made demands to disenfranchise a significant portion of the population
You have been making assertions unsupported by any evidence when you and others have stated here and on the discord that IF is close to a split and can be broken apart by doing some of the stuff they want
This is all the evidence I need, they showed up and put this absolute garbage in writing on our desk 🤷♂️
5% of the population doesn't get to decide that 20% of the population should be excluded entirely from all higher education (which is, of course, a hard prerequisite to any sort of power or influence in the GDI). If it was 70% of the population terrified of the political contagion of the other 20% then maybe there would be a leg to stand on but IF are a tiny minority far outnumbered by the actual minority they're trying to oppress, much less the rest of the GDI body politic.
IF holds 8% of the Parliamentary seats, and that's from the election cycle before we got over a hundred MILLION Yellow Zone refugees joining the GDI. There's no way they represent more than about 5% of the current voting population, and probably less. IF is a small minority of privledged Blue Zoners, they don't deserve special consideration over the huge majority of Blue Zoners that don't vote IF or the YZ refugees who outnumber IF members multiple times over.
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BoSPaladin
The Paladin
This is in point of fact my exact argument for why we *should* grant them if not even 3 of their goals, but at least 1 that being the zone armour since it costs us literally nothing as we've promised more to other parties and could prevent the IF from going further hardline.
But they're about 8% of parliament now. Can safely be ignored. (or at least their zonist demands can be) And our demographics are still trending yellow as we continue to take in more people from Nod.
IF isn't going to become a massive party overnight. Even growing they'll remain small enough that we can ignore their odious requests precisely because they represent a small fraction of the population. And even assuming they grow by vote share, the widespread enfranchisement of yellowzoners into GDI politics as represented by the United Yellow List along with yellowzoners drifting towards devs/socialists/militarists/other parties means that parliament might soon expand by several hundred more seats. so even if IF gains seats, their total share might even fall further.
And sure. If we do the 'easy' promises for IF there is a risk that the hardcore use that, and not so much gain control of the party,(they're already in control of the party) but it's a very different situation to IRL politics. Republicans for example, and their far right, used metaphors because the explicitly racist parts of their proposals were A, illegal, and B unpalatable to moderate voters. Now, the far right did put their candidate in charge, but that would be under a 2 party system which emphasises party loyalty, as opposed to GDI's system wherein coalition building rules the day and transferring your vote to another party happens quite often. Point being, even assuming IF grows to a major size, as they are right now, they're using coded language in the case of 'specialised arcologies' because I assume calls for segregation explicitly would be offputting to at least some of their voters, and if it wasn't they would have no need to censor and use codes/metaphors. The ban from blue zone universities is more open, but comes as a result of multiple terror attacks from nod. It's a panic demand.
If you'll allow me to again propose a method to keep with it as written while undermining the spirit. It would be entirely possible for treasury to accept the removal of yellowzoners from blue zone universities. after building them entirely new universities with the latest tech and the best teachers we have available in order to help those yellowzoners who need extra educational support. Completing undermining the zonist wing of the IF, now, I'm not saying we should do that. But my point is this. IF is trapped using metaphors. But metaphors, inherently lack specificity they can say 'build arcologies for existing local residents' within the metaphor of 'specialist arcologies' they cannot say 'and deport the yellowzoners back to nod' within that metaphor. The only way they're going to be able to get the actually zonist demands fulfilled in the way that they want them is to go mask off and say it plainly.
And saying these things explicitly can work in the context of a two party system where there's little other choice. But IF as it is now, and likely even for a long while. Won't ever be able to say those things explicitly within a democratic system, as between the devs, militarists and other fairly 'right' parties IF voters can and will change their votes to other options.
Say for example if the devs decided to add some explictly zonist demands even they, the single largest party have no ability to force us to take it. Case in point, we can pick and choose whichever demands from them we wish. Or even if we tried, we'd be able to make a functioning plan/gov without them.
If the Devs cannot force us into take specific projects then the IF has no chance, even if they theoretically swallow all of the devs whole something astoundingly unlikely they still wouldn't be able to force us.
But yeah. That's my position. taking reasonable goals now will probably not lock us in to a situation later where we're forced into taking zonist goals.
That's fair. I agree with you here. That being said, I do not believe the treasury should be essentially saying that it's perfectly fine to come to us with a bunch of horrifically racist bullshit because we'll still do everything else they want.
Why would IF have any incentive to change things and become less racist? Why would the moderates (or at least somewhat less racist people) split from the radicalists in charge of the party? They're getting what they want anyway
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
Alright new vote. Voting for both the Spinoffs and Go To Space (without IF) because I want no IF promises at this point. @Simon_Jester we are finishing the Green Border this plan and if I have to become like you to do so I will.
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
Alright new vote. Voting for both the Spinoffs and Go To Space (without IF) because I want no IF promises at this point. @Simon_Jester we are finishing the Green Border this plan and if I have to become like you to do so I will.
- Location
- USA
This is very hyperbolic.
Their ask is garbage, but it's not what you're saying. They want yellow zoners excluded from blue zone universities, not excluded from higher education. Every other university type is fine.
It's still braindead but not anywhere near as bad as what you are saying it is.
Unless of course the only universities after all our education improvement actions are exclusively in blue zones instead of being more widespread in which case I retract my statement and apologize.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)
I think this is an excellent opportunity for other GDI politicians to potentially further split the IF
I think this is an excellent opportunity for other GDI politicians to potentially further split the IF
