- Location
- MSC
Simon, maybe maximise dice on Border Offensives? Get that out of the way and open all deep RZ glaciers?
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Simon, maybe maximise dice on Border Offensives? Get that out of the way and open all deep RZ glaciers?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)
- Location
- Wall Gazing
He has, the way the dice are set up in that plan is such that even if we roll poorly on the Border Offensives and well on the Deep RZ Glaciers we won't have any Glacier's waiting on Border Offensives. Furthermore, splitting the dice like this will give us more immediate income for Q2 then leaning towards Border Offensives would. That then allows us to fund more expensive projects in Q2.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Again, I don't like the 20K pop goal, and I really don't like the lack of guaranteed Steel Talon funding. They're the backbone of our military innovation, and those innovations can and have gotten back into the civilian side. Guaranteeing thier funding is important, and that's before the possibility of losing two Military Dice.
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, I'm getting moderately frustrated at the continued extremely narrow vote between the pro-IF lockout and deplatforming and pro-IF legitimization and (hopefully) moderation, so I'm going to effortpost this bitch. First, my understanding of how the factions expect their solutions to play out:
-IF lockout, 0 IF goals: This continues the policy of "be racist, get nothing" we've ran with before. Expected results are a slightly more difficult to meet plan (thanks to having to take additional goals to replace the IF goals we'll do anyway), as well as IF being presented to the average voter as an ineffective way to achieve any goals - even if they're goals the rest of the government is OK with. This is expected to drive away what few IF voters can find welcome in other, less racist parties from the party, leaving a more committed and radically bigoted core likely to turn to anti-state activities (anything between protests and domestic terrorism) in response.
-IF inclusion, a few goals we probably want to do anyway: a slightly easier plan due to a greater degree of double-counted goals, but also the legitimization of IF as a method through which (bigoted, mostly) voters can get their voices heard. Enables IF to prove their viability as a party and thus attract more loose voters and tells committed IF members that the government isn't actively opposed to them. This will, at the very least, reduce the incidence of anti-state violence by old-blue-zoner supremacists - at the cost of emboldening those bigots and supremacists to act against immigrants with more confidence in their ability to escape justice.
Personally, I prefer the former option because, while it requires a slightly more agressive goal list, I'd much rather have bigoted domestic terrorists than increased incidence of discrimination against immigrants for the simple reason of InOps exists and their literal job is to keep a lid on domestic terrorism and to some extent all other anti-government activity. Yellow/green zone -> blue zone immigrants don't have such an extensive and well-trained bulwark against opposition, so are going to be hurt more by an equal amount of political and violent pressure. We as the GDI bureaucracy can withstand a bunch of nutcases trying to blow stuff up, we deal with that every day in Nod. A bunch of already legally weak immigrants... Less able to.
-IF lockout, 0 IF goals: This continues the policy of "be racist, get nothing" we've ran with before. Expected results are a slightly more difficult to meet plan (thanks to having to take additional goals to replace the IF goals we'll do anyway), as well as IF being presented to the average voter as an ineffective way to achieve any goals - even if they're goals the rest of the government is OK with. This is expected to drive away what few IF voters can find welcome in other, less racist parties from the party, leaving a more committed and radically bigoted core likely to turn to anti-state activities (anything between protests and domestic terrorism) in response.
-IF inclusion, a few goals we probably want to do anyway: a slightly easier plan due to a greater degree of double-counted goals, but also the legitimization of IF as a method through which (bigoted, mostly) voters can get their voices heard. Enables IF to prove their viability as a party and thus attract more loose voters and tells committed IF members that the government isn't actively opposed to them. This will, at the very least, reduce the incidence of anti-state violence by old-blue-zoner supremacists - at the cost of emboldening those bigots and supremacists to act against immigrants with more confidence in their ability to escape justice.
Personally, I prefer the former option because, while it requires a slightly more agressive goal list, I'd much rather have bigoted domestic terrorists than increased incidence of discrimination against immigrants for the simple reason of InOps exists and their literal job is to keep a lid on domestic terrorism and to some extent all other anti-government activity. Yellow/green zone -> blue zone immigrants don't have such an extensive and well-trained bulwark against opposition, so are going to be hurt more by an equal amount of political and violent pressure. We as the GDI bureaucracy can withstand a bunch of nutcases trying to blow stuff up, we deal with that every day in Nod. A bunch of already legally weak immigrants... Less able to.
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
[X] Plan Big Budget + checking 1 IF box
[X] Plan Big Budget + checking 1 IF box
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm almost certain this is in intentional, as an aside. Their policies regarding military matters are incredibly unambitious and have become more so since last reallocation, while their goals towards BZ have become more extreme. The 'generous' interpretation of this is that the % of their party that actually cares about military expansion has begun to fade away, while my personal interpretation is that IF is going for easier policy goals in order to make normalising their ideology more palatable to the treasury. We take these 'easy' goals this time and they'll have more sway to force us into accepting their policies next reallocation, or the time after that.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
From a Watsonian standpoint, the Treasury doing it is considerably more important than the Treasury promising to do it. It's realistically going to get done, so I refuse to angst about whether or not we promised to do it.
Two reasons.
1) Because we need the actual income that comes from the glacier mines themselves. If my reallocation plan succeeds, we have 825 R or so to play with in 2062Q1, but some of that is from spending reserves. if we want next turn to be "good times," we need the raw cash output that comes from glacier mines. So it's better to have 2-3 more border offensives and two super glacier mines than to be absolutely super-duper sure of having four border offensives.
2) Because I don't want to waste dice. Seven dice on the border offensives gives us a 60/40 chance of finishing Stage 4, that is to say, of having rollover onto the final fifth stage. There's just not much advantage in pushing even harder on the border offensives at the cost of not being assured of completing at least two of the lucrative super glacier mines.
Seriously, try to game out a strategy that produces better payoff. I'll flip to it if you find it.
The combination of the tech development commitments and lots and lots of people constantly talking about how funding the Talons is Very Important (TM) makes it very unlikely that the Talons will be in any normal sense neglected for funding. I'm not worried about it.
I respect your right to disagree with me on the "20,000 people in space" goal.
I can't imagine a plausible scenario in which they can force Seo (or his non-IF successor) to accept Blue Zone segregationism or something like that. Like... how. I don't think there's a road from them saying "oh yeah, we totally talked the Treasury into fortifying some more border towns" into that.
If that's what Initiative First is planning, then it's a pretty bad plan.
- Location
- MSC
It's mostly completionist in me, I should ignore it more often.
It's more that with them being legitimised they're likely to gain at least some polularity with people as they can now get shit done. They will also then try to leverage that popularity to achieve their goals whether through deals with the treasury or deals with other parties (note that the other parties wanting nothing to do with them might lessen from them being less absolutely radioactive).
While they're unlikely to achieve segregation they are still normalising it as a topic in political discourse and that alone does a huge amount of harm when it comes to integrating YZ refugees
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So, space pop goal talk. Colombia offers us roughly 4.75k space pop. I know from sources the progression is Colombia -> Colombia II -> Moon Prototype City. Assuming all three of these projects are of similar scope, the pop/dice ratio only needs to improve by 36% between projects for us to complete the 20k goal.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I just don't think they're going to accomplish more to normalize it than they already have just by existing and being like 8% of Parliament including at least one of the most prominent and high-status politicians in all of GDI (since Ozawa was a big deal all the way back to the early 2050s)
[blinks owlishly]
Could you expand on your math there? I'm not really questioning you, I'm just curious.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Colombia offers 4.75k, without bays, assuming 36% improvement between generations, and similar project scopes we have:
Columbia II: 4.75k*1.36=6.46k
Moon Prototype City: 4.75*1.36^2=8.786k
Add together to roughly 20.64k.
This is a minimum calculation, I hope the iterative improvement is better than 36%, which would make getting to the 20k goal even easier.
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Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's a strategy that's used rather frequently IRL. Propose moderate policies, gain legitimacy on those policies being deemed acceptable, then slowly push the window on what's deemed acceptable from moderate to the actual goal over a period of decades.
You can see it in their proposed goals; you have the segregationist goals and the military goals, but the YZ fortresses are the odd one out. They're a reasonable goal for helping refugees and securing the yellow zone, but no other militarily-inclined party deems them necessary and I'm doubting IF has had a sudden fit of empathy for refugees, so why would IF prioritise it? Because it promotes the idea that expanding low quality housing in Yellow zones, and therefore keeping more YZers in that housing and out of blue zones, is an acceptable thing for them to ask and receive of the treasury.
I fully acknowledge that I could be completely full of it, btw, this just pattern recognition on my part.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Ahh, I begin to see. Well, nitpick: here, the hope is that the first 2000-ish point megaproject (Columbia) will hold about 3750 people (Shala is a dead end for this purpose), so we'd need a bigger percentage increase, something greater than 50%, I think.
I don't think they have decades; by the time they play that long a game, the whole issue will have become irrelevant. Either we'll be having the debate when everyone, be they from the Red, Blue, Yellow, Green, Cyan, or Pink-and-Purple-Polka-Dot Zone is a refugee in the Black Zones (outer space), or we'll be firing up the TCN.
They have no way of ensuring that meaningful numbers of Yellow Zoners actually wind up living in those fortress towns, and also we have basically terraformed the entirety of the land within the circuit of our border fortresses to Blue anyway.
I'm not saying you're full of it, I just think that it's kind of a pitifully weak strategy on their part, one that is unlikely to get them very far, and thus one that I don't really fear the consequences of.
Strategies like this rely very heavily on having the tacit support of a "silent majority" and the ability to freely propagandize them without pushback. We're very sensitized to strategies like this in real life because real far right groups use them heavily. But real far right groups have specific assets and advantages that Initiative First just... doesn't really enjoy, in my opinion, not in this situation.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh fuck, In that case we need 64%. I have been working with the wrong numbers the entire time. What have I done.
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- Location
- Wall Gazing
I thought we needed Shala to unlock further Station construction. Which would mean the formula is:
20k (Target) = 1.0k Shala + 3.75k Columbia + 3.75k*x Columbia II + 3.75k*x^2 Lunar Base
0 = 3.75*x^2 +3.75*x - 15.25
Solving the quadratic yields roots of 1.578 and -2.578.
Taking the positive root as the one that makes physical sense, means we would need an improvement of 57.8% over generations.
Note that this would still cost us a total of ~100 dice for the lot. I'll also note that we have 96 Orbital dice this plan, and we would likely want to do the Conestoga develop/deploy plus the dice needed for the Station Bay and Leopard IIs. My math puts that at 15 Free Dice needed in Orbital.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't like that this leaves us no flexibility to pursue other projects to support such a buildup - i.e. my thoughts on Lunar water and power stations. Yes we can use Free dice, but that comes at the cost of other departments such as HI.
So you don't see how a party that has been locked out of decision making due to their bigotry has less ability to shape the narrative than one where the bigotry is not seen as a sufficient obstacle to dealing with them?
IRL these groups claim but rarely have the support of a 'silent majority', I hardly see how IF is different there. As for pushback, as the treasury our best method of doing so was not giving them support by making deals with them, including them gets rid of that option
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Hey @Ithillid does the Commit to 20k population in space count as two or as @Simon_Jester claims as three?
