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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
Legitimizing IF is going to make them less anti-government, but it's not going to make them any less rabidly racist. The latter is the issue with them, and frankly I'd rather deal with a bunch of poorly trained racist terrorists for InOps to deal with than a ton of more or less competent racist politicians with access to power and the intention to use it.
 
Ok, thinking about Orbital for a moment and the 20k commitment. We are counting on the cost of Space Pop per die down once Columbia is complete. Columbia gives an average 0.15k per die overall (3.75k / 25* dice), that means we'd need an additional ~102 dice (15.25k / 0.15) to meet the commitment. To put that in perspective we are counting on what ever unlocks being twice as efficient in terms of dice to Space Pop. Now this is possible or even likely, but even if that is the case we would still need ~16 Free Dice in Orbital. If it is not and the Space Pop per die cost doesn't decrease we would need ~67 Free dice. That is technically possible, but it would take about 6 of every 10 of our free dice over the plan. If we take that commitment, that is what we are potentially signing up for, we would likely need to switch over from all free dice on Tiberium to rebuild our income directly into an all on Orbital rush.

*Assuming both Leopard Factory and Station Bay are complete
 
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I'd approval vote 'all the spinoffs', but it doesn't have quite as many Litinov commitments as the leading plan [Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)] (5 vs 6).

Litinov was the integration and de-radicalization candidate for the directorship. I'd really like to give her additional support, so that she can do more behind the scenes work on integrating the YZers into the population (and thus also help defang and de-radicalize the IF). That doing so might also make it easier to continue doing more Mad Science (she currently reduces their PS cost) such as Community housing, Auto-docs, or tib-resilience is a very nice bonus.
 
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Here's the thing about doing the IF promises. As people said it kicks the Can down the road to be dealt with later, but in this case that's kinda good?

Like, a whole bunch of IF issues and propaganda is that we've not returned to pre-tiberium war 3 standards of life(because as they claim, we are focusing on Yellow zoners first). Which fair enough, is correct since we are building more low quality housing instead of Archeolgies as a result of that. (Not to say i agree with IF, i do think we have made the correct choice in caring for everyone)

In the upcoming plan, we are gonna be spending a lot less on military and a lot more on actual civilian stuff, which includes a lot of issues that IF uses to drive voter's to them. By kicking down the problem to be dealt with later, we buy time to make solutions to the problem that IF uses to incentivice people up.

Furthermore, we are a democracy, and it shows that as long as you come up reasonable goals, like SADN, we are willing to you know, actually engage with democracy.

Yes, doing the security stuff for them may legitimize them, but it legitizmie the security part of IF, not the racist part. And with us buying more time to take care of the problem that caused the IF in the first place, i do think that actually enganging with them is the overall better option, both as fufilling our goal of being a democracy and in reducing the overall IF's influence without having to deal with GDI civil war electric bogoloo 2.

There's also the fact that this might be IF actually attempting to engange with us. Because remember last time, all of their relocation demands were racist. This time they've come with some racist and some actually legitimate issues. I think we should encourage them doing actual good stuff, instead of enganging in pointless racism. Because they have reasonable request this time, they didn't have last time. Let's encourage the IF to be more of a security party instead of a racist party, because we are never gonna be fully rid of them.(Unless we start the purge, which uh bad) (Edit: As been pointed out to me, i misread when re-checking, and the IF did in fact have reasonable request last relocation as well, so i messed up with this part)
 
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Exmorri said:
So when someone like @agumentic says "And if they [IF voters] want to vote for a party that wants to fight Nod, Militarists are right there and are much more successful." I find that plausible but also highly speculative. It would be a good reason to marginalize IF if they're basically a worse version of Militarists. But I don't have enough characterization of the Militarists to be confident of that, either.
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We kinda do though. IF and the MIlitarists didn't exist at the start of the game. There was one party, the Hawks, that had both the "build tanks" and "do racism" factions under one roof. I imagine this was supposed to put us in a bit of a pickle between the good ideas for a society living with constant recurring generational world wars vs. the trauma stemming from that.

But then al-Jilani rolled like a god just before the 2056 election and the Hawks exploded. Al-Jilani took the "build tanks" folks who were willing to give up on the "do racism" and split the Hawks to form the Militarists. The remaining "Hawks" who were still loyal to Hideo Ozawa and/or the "do racism" policy planks then rebranded to Initiative First. The Militarists proceeded to win a smashing victory despite IF having all the institutional advantages, and they've been like twice the size of IF ever since. The narrative the past 10 years has been that the Militarist platform is wildly popular, enough to attract like 2-3x as many votes as the Hawk platform used to, while the IF diehards just keep losing embarrassingly to these new upstarts that used to be their underlings.

Maybe if the dice had produced the opposite results (struggling Militarists with a strong IF) then "just become a Militarist" would hold less weight. But if you're a former Hawk member who wants electoral success and lots of military spending, the practical lesson of the past 8 years is that you should join the Militarists because they're currently kicking IF's ass and getting their platform through reliably every FYP.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm deliberately pushing it because I think it's our best hope of exerting pressure on Kane, personally, and I think that's worth spending on.

It's sort of like the massive Free dice spending in Military in the Third Four Year Plan, but now directed at a more dual-use set of projects that have direct civilian and species-survivability advantages alongside their impact on our Nod/Kane situation.
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I think 20k is worse for our space development than 10k is the thing. It's a big flashy headline, yes, but it would take SO MUCH effort that it would gut us outside the big flashy headline and give us an overall weaker foundation to work from. Same way that promising 5 industrial capstones to improve the economy would... technically do that, yes, but would the last 2400 progress points really be best used on Nuuk 5 or whatever rather than 2400 points of smaller but arguably more necessary HI projects that got ignored in favor of the first 4 capstones? Probably not, we could use 2400 points of power plants and particle accelerator factories and fancy alien alloys rollout more than we could use the extra robots.

I'm worried about falling into the same trap with space. Yes 20k people is a big headline number, but it's such a big number that it would require sacrificing critical offworld industrial development in favor of just cramming more sardines into the densest Columbia bay available because we gotta hit the big magic number regardless of if it's optimal for development 10 years from now, the target is due in 2. We probably can't even get away with things like medium or low density space residential bays, 20k is the intentionally absurdly high target that's just barely on the edge of possible if we monofocus it and that presumably means no time for luxuries, just more and more sardine cans as fast as we can feed in Free dice.
 
Sa'kage said:
There's also the fact that this might be IF actually attempting to engange with us. Because remember last time, all of their relocation demands were racist. This time they've come with some racist and some actually legitimate issues. I think we should encourage them doing actual good stuff, instead of enganging in pointless racism. Because they have reasonable request this time, they didn't have last time. Let's encourage the IF to be more of a security party instead of a racist party, because we are never gonna be fully rid of them.(Unless we start the purge, which uh bad)
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I feel the need to point out that this is somewhat revisionist history. The IF policy proposals last Reallocation (2057/2058) looked like this:
  • Initiative First (5/9)
    • [ ] Build at least two phases of Blue Zone (Specialized) Arcologies
    • [ ] Remove Yellow Zoners from Blue Zone Universities
    • [ ] Deregulate Blue Zone Businesses
    • [ ] Spend No More than 2 dice or 30 resources (whichever is less) on Yellow Zone Projects every quarter.
    • [ ] Spend No More than 1 die or 15 resources (whichever is less) on Yellow Zone projects every quarter.
    • [ ] Take three of the following projects
    • [ ] Take five of the following projects
    • -[ ] Complete the Hydrofoil Project
    • -[ ] Complete the Point Defense Refits
    • -[ ] Complete at least three more phases of Shell Plants
    • -[ ] Complete at least two more phase of Ablative Armor
    • -[ ] Complete at least two more phases of URLS production
    • [ ] Spend at least three dice or 45 resources (whichever is less) on military projects every quarter
    • [ ] Spend at least four dice or 60 resources (whichever is less) on military projects every quarter
    • [ ] Nominate an Initiative First Deputy and Commit to stepping down after a single term.
You'll recognize the IF Deputy demand and the three Le Racism demands from this go around, as well as capping spending on YZ Projects. But you'll also notice an aggregate of 4 promises on military projects that are, pretty much just like this time, carbon copies of Militarist proposals that happened at the same time.

The idea that IF last time was all bigotry all the time but now has some reasonable policy proposals because there's been a sea change and they're willing to try and work with us in good faith simply isn't true, or if it is true then it was identically true last Reallocation.

Note that I'm not calling you a liar here. I just think you misremembered IF's proposals last plan. But you did misremember.
 
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Sa'kage said:
Here's the thing about doing the IF promises. As people said it kicks the Can down the road to be dealt with later, but in this case that's kinda good?

Like, a whole bunch of IF issues and propaganda is that we've not returned to pre-tiberium war 3 standards of life(because as they claim, we are focusing on Yellow zoners first). Which fair enough, is correct since we are building more low quality housing instead of Archeolgies as a result of that. (Not to say i agree with IF, i do think we have made the correct choice in caring for everyone)

In the upcoming plan, we are gonna be spending a lot less on military and a lot more on actual civilian stuff, which includes a lot of issues that IF uses to drive voter's to them. By kicking down the problem to be dealt with later, we buy time to make solutions to the problem that IF uses to incentivice people up.

Furthermore, we are a democracy, and it shows that as long as you come up reasonable goals, like SADN, we are willing to you know, actually engage with democracy.

Yes, doing the security stuff for them may legitimize them, but it legitizmie the security part of IF, not the racist part. And with us buying more time to take care of the problem that caused the IF in the first place, i do think that actually enganging with them is the overall better option, both as fufilling our goal of being a democracy and in reducing the overall IF's influence without having to deal with GDI civil war electric bogoloo 2.

There's also the fact that this might be IF actually attempting to engange with us. Because remember last time, all of their relocation demands were racist. This time they've come with some racist and some actually legitimate issues. I think we should encourage them doing actual good stuff, instead of enganging in pointless racism. Because they have reasonable request this time, they didn't have last time. Let's encourage the IF to be more of a security party instead of a racist party, because we are never gonna be fully rid of them.(Unless we start the purge, which uh bad)
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Legitimising any part of IF will be used by their leadership as an indicator of legitimacy for the entirety of IF.
Also, if this is IF trying to engage with us then they're doing a piss poor job of it, demanding Seo's replacement by one of their people (seemingly asked for without care for what any other, better supported party might think) and segregation. They are engaging in pointless racism still, they just have demands that are racism and also some other stuff. There is absolutely no indication that engaging with them will drive them to be any less racist, after all they're coming to us with a racist plan and we're listening to some of it.

As for kicking the can down the road being good, please note that I support reaching out to the more moderate voters by doing the fortresses, SADN and zone armour, I just don't want to give the racist segregationists in the IF leadership any credit for this, something explicitly stated by Ithillid to ensure IF is a pain in our arse for much longer

As Struggle pointed out before, IF hasn't gotten any less racist and any people talking about a possible split in the party due to wanting both racism and other stuff are frankly seeing things that aren't there
 
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EternalStruggle said:
I feel the need to point out that this is somewhat revisionist history. The IF policy proposals last Reallocation (2057/2058) looked like this:
  • Initiative First (5/9)
    • [ ] Build at least two phases of Blue Zone (Specialized) Arcologies
    • [ ] Remove Yellow Zoners from Blue Zone Universities
    • [ ] Deregulate Blue Zone Businesses
    • [ ] Spend No More than 2 dice or 30 resources (whichever is less) on Yellow Zone Projects every quarter.
    • [ ] Spend No More than 1 die or 15 resources (whichever is less) on Yellow Zone projects every quarter.
    • [ ] Take three of the following projects
    • [ ] Take five of the following projects
    • -[ ] Complete the Hydrofoil Project
    • -[ ] Complete the Point Defense Refits
    • -[ ] Complete at least three more phases of Shell Plants
    • -[ ] Complete at least two more phase of Ablative Armor
    • -[ ] Complete at least two more phases of URLS production
    • [ ] Spend at least three dice or 45 resources (whichever is less) on military projects every quarter
    • [ ] Spend at least four dice or 60 resources (whichever is less) on military projects every quarter
    • [ ] Nominate an Initiative First Deputy and Commit to stepping down after a single term.
You'll recognize the IF Deputy demand and the three Le Racism demands from this go around, as well as capping spending on YZ Projects. But you'll also notice an aggregate of 4 promises on military projects that are, pretty much just like this time, carbon copies of Militarist proposals that happened at the same time.

The idea that IF last time was all bigotry all the time but now has some reasonable policy proposals because there's been a sea change and they're willing to try and work with us in good faith simply isn't true, or if it is true then it was identically true last Reallocation.

Note that I'm not calling you a liar here. I just think you misremembered IF's proposals last plan. But you did misremember.
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Huh yea, that's my bad. I did go back to check the reloccation, but i guess i overshoot and ended up going to the wrong one, since it was mostly racist proposols in the one i found/I misunderstood and misread what i saw. So sorry, that's definintly my bad. In which case, yea. I'm wrong about the change in reasonable policies
 
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I see little reason to break bread with IF. It's clear theyre not gonna stop being the racist party and I'd rather deal with a bunch of suburbanites being a less competent version of nod than someone with the power to mess with our political agenda if the dice roll the right way.

[X] Plan Plowshares
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
 
MightbeaMimic said:
Option A is the one that splits up IF and makes it smaller, option B legitimises and strengthens them long term but makes them less anti-government (Notably not less racist)
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That is not the full quote:

Ithillid said:
A/N2: These answers also need to be in the thread.
1. Dealing with the Initiative First: There are multiple viable strategies, each with their own upsides and downsides.
Option A: The Full Lockout. This will ensure radicalization of some fraction of the base, but make sure that it is smaller and less capable of achieving its overall aims, barring obvious failures of the Initiative.
Option B: Taking less obnoxious goals: This will make the Initiative First party somewhat less actively anti-government, but at the same time comes with the cost of legitimizing them and making them someone that you will have to continue dealing with.

There are other options with delineations between them being more or less fuzzy.

2. The Parties and how they relate to public opinion. Party opinions track only generally with public opinion. It is not some kind of strict "20 Strongly Opposed means X percent of the population is strongly opposed" it is more along the lines of X+/-Y percent of the population is strongly opposed for whatever reason. And in many cases, there is more going on with that than gets caught in the political tracker.
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The two most common outcomes are A we get a fifth column in our own society NOD can agitate with terrorist actions to get us worse results and B we get a political party that is going to push for racist/xenophobic actions but also serve as a flawed measuring stick for how much of our own population is racist/xenophobic.

I'd rather take the measuring stick. Keep one's friends close and one's enemies closer and all that comes with that.
 
[X] Plan Big Budget + Maximum Litvinov
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
[X] Plan: All Spin-offs, Minimum Extra Promises

In hindsight 20k in space is a lot more than necessary
 
Keep in mind that IF radicalization is defined as pro/anti- violence against the government. Not pro/anti- violence against others. Giving them more power might make them not use violence to overthrow the government (or at least put us to the back of their "list"), but it doesn't actually protect individuals against hate crimes.

I don't want the IF to think that they make kicking tens of millions of students out of school for the crime of being born on the wrong side of an imaginary line as part of their official party platform, and not even pay a political cost for doing so. And if their politicians didn't agree with the official party platform, they could either join a different party, split, or at the very least propose a separate platform that didn't include segregation and creating a permanent, un-educated, underclass.

I don't want to legitimize the idea that it is acceptable to work with people who demand to do incalculable harm to the present and futures of others based on the circumstances of their birth. Heck, even if you ignore the morality of it, it would have been one of the greatest recruiting advertisements for their supposed mortal enemies! People that are either that short-sighted, or that sadistic, should not be anywhere near the levers of power. We don't want to give them the legitimacy that they need to gain more influence over the military, local governments, or businesses.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
I'm worried about falling into the same trap with space. Yes 20k people is a big headline number, but it's such a big number that it would require sacrificing critical offworld industrial development in favor of just cramming more sardines into the densest Columbia bay available because we gotta hit the big magic number regardless of if it's optimal for development 10 years from now, the target is due in 2. We probably can't even get away with things like medium or low density space residential bays, 20k is the intentionally absurdly high target that's just barely on the edge of possible if we monofocus it and that presumably means no time for luxuries, just more and more sardine cans as fast as we can feed in Free dice.
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We have enough dice to make this happen without going maximum squeeze. Yes it will probably consume most of our free dice, but who said it would be easy.
 
Rakuhn said:
I don't want to legitimize the idea that it is acceptable to work with people who demand to do incalculable harm to the present and futures of others based on the circumstances of their birth. Heck, even if you ignore the morality of it, it would have been one of the greatest recruiting advertisements for their supposed mortal enemies! People that are either that short-sighted, or that sadistic, should not be anywhere near the levers of power. We don't want to give them the legitimacy that they need to gain more influence over the military, local governments, or businesses.
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Any ideas so as not make them home grown terrorists? That's the sticking point for me.
 
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