Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Kpatrol88
Cloud Hopper
All I really want is to have the IF in a position where we can control them safely, if obnoxiously in our face. Rather than finding out that they somehow golden bb sabotaged an important project later on or caused a war between GDI and the Forgotten via diplomatic incident.
If the IF were self-radicalizing, maybe freezing them out would have a point, but right now its us who are cornering them into this position on purpose. We could at least address the security concerns and maybe they'll reform like the FMP is doing.
And its not like we have to bend over for them forever more if we do give them a bone. We have plenty of political space to manouver.
If the IF were self-radicalizing, maybe freezing them out would have a point, but right now its us who are cornering them into this position on purpose. We could at least address the security concerns and maybe they'll reform like the FMP is doing.
And its not like we have to bend over for them forever more if we do give them a bone. We have plenty of political space to manouver.
[/QUOTE]
my plan,
plan: All Spin-offs, Minimum Extra Promises, IF Version
Doesnt snub IF, and it does the Steel talons dice. E: (Sure it only has 7 votes, but come on...)
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Yeah, those poor oppressed people who lived their entire lives spending their blood sweat and tears trying to make sure humanity isn't eaten by vore rocks. And yes I would say it is a common opinion that yellow zoners and nod is used interchangeably just look at the opening cinematic for tib war 3. Why wouldn't there be propaganda and a decent effort to paint the enemy in a bad light?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think there comes a point at which we just have to accept that we can't please everyone and arguably shouldn't try. It's not inherently evil for a government to fail to please, or even to try to please, everyone.
- Location
- indeterminate, possibly non-existent
- Pronouns
- Any
At some point soon, I believe at the end of this plan, Kane is going turn up with the Tiberium Control Network in hand, and offer to work with GDI to build it. We're almost certainly going to say yes, because it is literally impossible to save the planet and the majority of its population without it. Working with Kane and NOD will immediately cause them to radicalise, and we should be weakening them, not strengthening them before that occurs.
We can't control IF, because their fundamental goal is to see all Yellow Zoners gone, and preferably dead. Compromising and trying to make them feel heard will not change that. If they think their hatred is being heard they'll start yelling louder, because it's working.
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Only a minor part of the population of the Blue Zones lived their entire lives actively spending anything to beat back Tiberium, and I doubt that part is majority IF. More passively suffered some - and during TW3, almost everyone passively suffered a lot - but that does not give them the right to treat other people as their lessers, especially when these people suffered a lot more. And while IF rhetoric certainly likes to equivalate Nod and Yellow Zoners, it is wrong even if it would be popular - and considering IF only makes up a rather minor part of our parliament, it's not very.
- Location
- USA
This isn't actually me arguing with you I just thought of something funny.
However long from now Kane shows up and we make our deal.
IF "They ignored us for years! We followed all the rules and they gave us nothing! They spat on us because we wanted security after <whatever number of years of war>. And now they are reaching out to the alien that killed more people than anyone in history and spread tiberium everywhere and ruined our planet! The leader of Nod! And they wouldn't give us the time of day!!!"
<shattering glass sound>
"FUCK IT! WE'RE CERBURUS NOW! SCREW THE GOVERNMENT AND SCREW ALIENS! EARTH FIRST!"
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...Honestly.
At this point I figure that was probably fated to happen no matter what; all that changes is the details. "Initiative First" to "Earth First" is just too obvious to pass up.
At this point I figure that was probably fated to happen no matter what; all that changes is the details. "Initiative First" to "Earth First" is just too obvious to pass up.
Kpatrol88
Cloud Hopper
I'm failing to see how radicalizing them now will help.
If and whenever Kane decides to gives us his sales pitch, it'll divide GDI regardless. Along what lines I cannot fathom, but I'm sure it won't be pretty and the IF will only be a small fraction of that problem.
Our best bet to manage dissent is to be in the best position to negotiate from a position of strength (like during the The Forgotten negotiations). Turning the IF from a headache into a sucking wound is counter-productive to that goal.
- Location
- USA
I mean... we could try not antagonizing them every chance we get but, oh well. Ce la vie.
So the US currently has 2.1 million (1.3 active and 800 thousand) military personal which is about 15 percent of the population. I don't have personal numbers for GDI but considering the fact that they are in a forever war all across the globe against a military 'peer' i expect that number to be a lot higher. Taking that into account the attrition numbers fighting nod and with the alien invasion targeting civilians, everyone that lives in the blue zone has lost at least one close family member. IF probably has the second most military active party because their predecessor was 'The' military party.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Nah, there's still gonna be a nucleus who are pissed, violent, and irrational, and GDI as a whole will be super paranoid about aliens after all the shit it's been through anyway.
I think it might be time to just cool it. It's not worth endless saltfights; the game will go on and be fun either way as long as we don't start knifing each other over it.
I've kind of got a foot in both camps, dunno.
- Location
- USA
Yeah, pretty much. I've already vented a bit and there's not really much point in debating it further.
- Location
- The Underdark
Depending on the basedness level of the aliens, there are basically two options. Paranoia and emotional support aliens.
Edit: Also, This is a game, it is meant to be fun. Pls no knifing each other over things.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Aight I guess I throw my five cents into the mix.
IF are just one of many parties. If Parliament would act like real governments they would enter Coalition talks and as soon as one forms with more than 50% of the seats forms, they would yeet their demands for plan goals onto the table. This quest, for mechanical reasons, does not work this way. We as the treasury are given enromeous power into the plan goal making process because enabling player agency in quests is good yes, but it puts us into the awkward position where we have the Intitiative (hehe) in the talks, not Parliament.
If Parliament acted like real multi-party governments do, wether or not IF would get to participate in the governmental process would start and end wether with wether ot not their goals are sensible enough that the other parties form coalitions with them. IF in this position even gets to play Kingmaker between the two big party blocks already on the block, but this is not how this whole thing works. In Germany, where I'm from, we have our very own IF in the form of the AFD. None of the other parties, aside from some of the right wings of the CDU and FDP, like them. If they cannot get into ruling coalitions thats on them and them alone. If they want to get into the boat they can make sensible demand. So I am pretty amused and horrified at the thought that our finance minister gets to play kingmaker and decide what goals of which party to put onto the agenda, instead of the ruling coalition slapping an agenda on his table, and have a discussion wether or not taking up some of the AFDs goals to appease them is nessesary.
I, again, understand that this is the result of giving us the questers agency in the making of plan goals, but it also puts us in this stupid position where we need to needlessly talk and argue on what to do with this situation where there is no good answer, because IF characterization starts and ends with bigots. If we really wanted to have a good dicussion about the merits of appeasing them or not they would have required a more understandable motiavtion and characterization than that, but its too late now and now we sit here faced with this mess.
IF are just one of many parties. If Parliament would act like real governments they would enter Coalition talks and as soon as one forms with more than 50% of the seats forms, they would yeet their demands for plan goals onto the table. This quest, for mechanical reasons, does not work this way. We as the treasury are given enromeous power into the plan goal making process because enabling player agency in quests is good yes, but it puts us into the awkward position where we have the Intitiative (hehe) in the talks, not Parliament.
If Parliament acted like real multi-party governments do, wether or not IF would get to participate in the governmental process would start and end wether with wether ot not their goals are sensible enough that the other parties form coalitions with them. IF in this position even gets to play Kingmaker between the two big party blocks already on the block, but this is not how this whole thing works. In Germany, where I'm from, we have our very own IF in the form of the AFD. None of the other parties, aside from some of the right wings of the CDU and FDP, like them. If they cannot get into ruling coalitions thats on them and them alone. If they want to get into the boat they can make sensible demand. So I am pretty amused and horrified at the thought that our finance minister gets to play kingmaker and decide what goals of which party to put onto the agenda, instead of the ruling coalition slapping an agenda on his table, and have a discussion wether or not taking up some of the AFDs goals to appease them is nessesary.
I, again, understand that this is the result of giving us the questers agency in the making of plan goals, but it also puts us in this stupid position where we need to needlessly talk and argue on what to do with this situation where there is no good answer, because IF characterization starts and ends with bigots. If we really wanted to have a good dicussion about the merits of appeasing them or not they would have required a more understandable motiavtion and characterization than that, but its too late now and now we sit here faced with this mess.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, the way I see it, during reallocation, we kind of sort of zoom out from the actual limited perspective of Treasury and take on a somewhat broader view of the process of negotiating what the next Four Year Plan looks like.
There's a fairly solid consensus in Parliament up through the 2050s, fueled in large part by the tiberium economy's power to casually deliver miracles like "oh yeah, we're pretty sure we can manage 50% GDP growth in four years, though 60% would be pushing it." It's just not worth knock-down drag-out fights over the goals set by the planned economy, and Treasury has enough public trust that they can issue a plan that sounds good enough to all major parties involved.
Three quarters of the legislature checks it, sees line items thrown into the budget and the Plan that will satisfy their constituents, goes "nice," and votes in favor because why rock the boat as long as the good times roll. The other quarter or so, for various reasons, consists of people who have really extreme expectations. This includes people we wouldn't like, such as Initiative First, but also just people with wild and unrealistic expectations or very specific pet projects we simply don't care enough to pursue on the grounds that it's not worth the trouble (e.g. Salt Lake Planned City back in '58)
But the "we" in this perspective sort of zooms out from being "the Treasury" to "the government and the Treasury." And while there are no doubt conflicts within the government (that is, the prevailing party coalition in Parliament), those conflicts are mostly smoothed over when it comes to centralized economic planning because the economy is going fairly well.
This is probably what WOULD have happened if a different sequence of events had played out. For instance, if we'd gotten unlucky with certain tech rolls or made bad choices at earlier points in the game, and weren't generally managing an economic boom and military successes at the same time. Then the divisions between the major party blocks would be sharper, and IF's votes would be worth more.
...
As it stands, I suspect that the political dynamic is that Development can build very strong coalitions pretty easily by leaning on Treasury to promise the moon, the sun, and the stars to pretty much anyone they want. Anyone else has to figure out what to unite their coalition around, and this is difficult. There's no strong consensus capable of forming a solid majority government in favor of making the economy more centralized (the Socialist agenda) or less centralized (FMP/Market Socialist). UYL and Starbound and Militarists are all single-issue parties that are easily placated by promising to build them lots of things.
We're seeing the beginning of a split where a Militarist-focused coalition might arise to rival the Development-centered one, but that won't fully take shape until the next election cycle actually changes the numbers in the legislature, I suspect.
Basically, Development (and its alliances with other parties) just turned out to be massive winners in the 2055 elections because Granger was able to defuse the building tensions about the failure to properly recover from Tib War III with a massive well-timed Consumer Goods surge, and then did well again in 2059 because things were, quite simply, still going well.
Yeah, frankly, that is a problem; they've been so overtly characterized as the Bad Guy Party that any attempt to engage with them has... no real point to doing it, except for a purely pro forma "we owe it to this abstract principle to try" thing going on.
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs And No Radicalization For You Mr IF
The plan I want (going too far into SPAACE like Simon's plan after several years of doing the middle path look really weird)
but I will also approval vote the plan without IF since has more vote
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
And I think most posters seems to want to be dick just for the sake of it (and probably provoke Troubles MK2 in short order) since we will still do at least 2 of the 3 reasonable demands of IF for other parties.
And yeah it legitimatize IF but they are already an official party and from my POV the faster way to radicalize part of the population is to never listen to them, just because 90% they are wrong it doesn't change than it still means 10% of the times they are right. Without going too much into IRL it's at least part of why there is rise of far-right parties and thinking in Europe and America : years (or decade) of the governement stopping to listening to part of the population for one reason or another.
And the longer without the IF going full terrorist the more time for InOps to catch the Nod's one we currently have and integrate the newer yellow population because they could easily going back to Nod (openly or not) if IF start targetting them with not just words.
The plan I want (going too far into SPAACE like Simon's plan after several years of doing the middle path look really weird)
but I will also approval vote the plan without IF since has more vote
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
And I think most posters seems to want to be dick just for the sake of it (and probably provoke Troubles MK2 in short order) since we will still do at least 2 of the 3 reasonable demands of IF for other parties.
And yeah it legitimatize IF but they are already an official party and from my POV the faster way to radicalize part of the population is to never listen to them, just because 90% they are wrong it doesn't change than it still means 10% of the times they are right. Without going too much into IRL it's at least part of why there is rise of far-right parties and thinking in Europe and America : years (or decade) of the governement stopping to listening to part of the population for one reason or another.
And the longer without the IF going full terrorist the more time for InOps to catch the Nod's one we currently have and integrate the newer yellow population because they could easily going back to Nod (openly or not) if IF start targetting them with not just words.
Huh? No, it isn't, unless US went through some great catastrophe I missed and lost 95% of its population. Even considering the TW3 draft that probably happened, I doubt more than 10% of the GDI population was in the military. But anyway, even if some IF members lost their relatives to Nod's actions, that doesn't give them them right to be racist against Yellow Zoners. At best, it makes their anger and fear understandable but misguided, not justified. And if they want to vote for a party that wants to fight Nod, Militarists are right there and are much more successful.
If initiative first want us to deal with them then they need a plan that doesn't include apartheid
[x] Plan All The Spinoffs
[x] Plan Plowshares
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space But Slower (without Initiative First)
[x] Plan All The Spinoffs
[x] Plan Plowshares
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space But Slower (without Initiative First)
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Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Alright I'm not able to vote yet because this is where the voters decided multiple plans are a good idea again. So on that Initiative First problem:
These are two different political goals in a single party. The first four goals here are your Apartheid racists, the second four are your defensive paranoids. One is one of those racist/zoning assholes that show up in turn results from time to time to be extra despicable, the other is GDI Wife.
If we only take the lower four of the security goals we will cause a split in Initiative First where we can get it split into a Security Party and an Apartheid Party. Which will dilute it's political power even more. We can literally take:
and that one free die on Military per turn with all remaining Fortress Towns, which we need to do to take as much of the population away from NOD as we can and the Four Ground Forces Armor Factories, which we need for this plan to get at the Red Zones properly and get that rolling. Next plan the same do security we would anyways like to do at some point and leave the Apartheid assholes to go play hopscotch in a minefield.
These are two different political goals in a single party. The first four goals here are your Apartheid racists, the second four are your defensive paranoids. One is one of those racist/zoning assholes that show up in turn results from time to time to be extra despicable, the other is GDI Wife.
If we only take the lower four of the security goals we will cause a split in Initiative First where we can get it split into a Security Party and an Apartheid Party. Which will dilute it's political power even more. We can literally take:
and that one free die on Military per turn with all remaining Fortress Towns, which we need to do to take as much of the population away from NOD as we can and the Four Ground Forces Armor Factories, which we need for this plan to get at the Red Zones properly and get that rolling. Next plan the same do security we would anyways like to do at some point and leave the Apartheid assholes to go play hopscotch in a minefield.
Well that's just not true, IFs core did split from a Militarist root but they have pretty divergent positions on how much pain the core territory should go though to facilitate GDI expansion. If I was deeply concerned about maintaining quality of life and national security for existing citizens over backing large offensives then I am actually quite opposed to the Militarist line.
