Honestly, the IF can sit and spin for their (current) politics.

I'm just worried about our currently ongoing security situation. We really can't afford to buy more trouble on that front if I'm reading all of the recent story posts correctly.

I'd rather have the IF assholes loudly complaining about yellow zoners on GDIOnline, rather than dealing with the news of yet another mass shooting raising tensions between blue and yellow and setting back our overarching agenda of intergration yet again and it not being even Nod's fault this time.
 
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Let's be real, democratic government have the right to ignore your BS if you don't have enough support in Parliament.
Not only because of politics, it's for pragmatic reasons as well - we will not please everyone, and attempting to do so will backfire.

What scares me right now is what will be political landscape after we beat the Tib.
 
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The only "anything at all for IF" plans I've seen have two promises that are literally just us saying "yeah, we're going to do things we were already going to do anyway, we're not doing this for you," plus one promise (fortress towns) that's just "yeah, we'll continue doing a thing we've already done a lot of, for a little longer than we otherwise might have done."
Now I feel attacked. I literally posted a project that had the premise of selecting exactly one option we were 100% going to do anyway just to say we weren't going out of our way to alienate.

I talked about my reason in the post and everything!
 
Honestly, the IF can sit and spin for their (current) politics.

I'm just worried about our currently ongoing security situation. We really can't afford to buy more trouble on that front if I'm reading all of the recent story posts correctly.

I'd rather have the IF assholes loudly complaining about yellow zoners on GDIOnline, rather than dealing with the news of yet another mass shooting raising tensions between blue and yellow and setting back our overarching agenda of intergration yet again and it not being even Nod's fault this time.
I'd agree, but if the Trump years have shown anything it is that giving bigots legitimacy increases hate crimes rather than decreases them. They feel emboldened and protected to act out their desires.

As I see it, depriving them legitimacy makes it more likely that they'll take out their feelings of insignificance and inferiority out on us, rather than on their neighbors. And our institution has a lot more ability to protect itself from their attacks than our citizens do.

I'd rather deal with this now, while Nod is too weak to capitalize on it, than to kick the can down the road at the cost of the well-being of our citizenry.
 
Let's be real, democratic government have the right to ignore your BS if you don't have enough support in Parliament.
Not only because of politics, it's for pragmatic reasons as well - we will not please everyone, and attempting to do so will backfire.
Quite true.

But if we can easily please some of them by doing things they want that we also want, like fortress towns, SADN, and armor factories, that argument loses any value. We can easily meet them halfway on some stuff. We don't have any groups telling us not to do those things.

No, what we're doing is slapping away a handshake. Going out of our way to purposefully reject them and any potential compromise in a insulting way. Because we don't like them even though they are legitimate participants in our system and broken no rules. They don't share our views. So fuck em.

I'd rather deal with this now, while Nod is too weak to capitalize on it, than to kick the can down the road at the cost of the well-being of our citizenry.

...

They are your citizens. They are just ones you don't care about.

Best to purge them I suppose. For the greater good.
 
I get you, but what's the over/under on negotiating with supervillains to save the world from a problem they created and exacerbated, all so they can get pretty much everything they really want and leave you with a barely satisfactory tool for survival in the aftermath?
Because he's holding the future of the earth and most of humanity hostage, and while I'd love to see him dragged in front of a court for crimes against humanity, that won't bring back all the people that have died. (And most of those people were going to die anyway once tiberium fell. That's the Visitors fault, not Kane's. He didn't "create" this problem, though he did make it worse)
Once we build the TCN, Kane will leave and not be our problem anymore. If we work with the IF in the name of moderation, it'll make their hatefulness acceptable political discourse for years and decades to come.
The difference is that we have to work with Kane, we can't tell him to shove off without killing most of the surviving population in the process.
If we tell the IF where they can put their views on Yellow Zoners, there's not much they can do about it, and that is a good thing. In democracy it's important that everyone is heard, but it doesn't mean we have to do what a hateful and extremist minority says. We can do projects like SADN without working with IF, and show voters that are more concerned about security and safety that voting for IF isn't necessary. As for the ones who just hate Yellow Zoners, well. There is a likelyhood of terrorism and other violence, but that's something InOps can deal with, when the alternative is giving them political power to oppress and kill people with.
Quite true.

But if we can easily please some of them by doing things they want that we also want, like fortress towns, SADN, and armor factories, that argument loses any value. We can easily meet them halfway on some stuff. We don't have any groups telling us not to do those things.

No, what we're doing is slapping away a handshake. Going out of our way to purposefully reject them and any potential compromise in a insulting way. Because we don't like them even though they are legitimate participants in our system and broken no rules. They don't share our views. So fuck em.



...

They are your citizens. They are just ones you don't care about.

Best to purge them I suppose. For the greater good.
The only ones that are going to be "purged" are the ones that try to shoot up schools full of Yellow Zoners.
We're not putting them into gulags, just refusing to work with the politicians they elected, which we are absolutely allowed to do.
 
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No, what we're doing is slapping away a handshake. Going out of our way to purposefully reject them and any potential compromise in a insulting way. Because we don't like them even though they are legitimate participants in our system and broken no rules. They don't share our views. So fuck em.

Yes, because those views are opposed to the yellow zoner integrationist platform of our boss, the director of the entire GDI, and to good morals as a whole. Like, to be perfectly honest, this is not a standard difference of opinion, this is saying we won't work with the party whose leader literally ripped off a Hitler speech when talking about Yellow Zoners. If you think we have some sort of obligation to treat them like sane rational people you can go and shake hands with them all you want, but as a government body we should have zero tolerance for that bullshit.

Best to purge them I suppose. For the greater good.

Oh yes, because refusing to work with someone is exactly the same as putting them in a siberian gulag. We're not removing them from existence, we are refusing to work with them even on things we agree with because the things we don't agree with are fundamentally insulting to good morals on a level that makes working with them on anything distastful and liable to get us side eyed by the explicitly idealistic pro-integration director, aka our boss.
 
Yeah, I can see both sides of this issue, but ultimately I'm not going to vote for any plan that has clear intentions of starting a domestic terrorist movement. That's a hard no for me. I don't like IF, but they are GDI citizens. If we can work with Kane, we can work with them.

[X] Plan: Moderation
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)

My main sticking point is the Steel Talons get a die every turn. I want that. I want that very badly.

I'm not crazy about all the space stuff, but I can't and won't argue about it when it's got a lot of advantages.

The rest of the plan... I'll be real, I have a very hard time parsing the plan. I feel like I'm voting much more blindly then I want to be. I haven't seen anything I don't want on just about any plan, but that's the most I can say. If anyone's willing to help me on that, it'd be greatly appreciated.
 
Now I feel attacked. I literally posted a project that had the premise of selecting exactly one option we were 100% going to do anyway just to say we weren't going out of our way to alienate.

I talked about my reason in the post and everything!
Okay, look, I'm sorry. I'm not attacking you, I'm just making a mistake because I overlooked something and I'm not literally an encyclopedia.

With that said, I don't see much functional difference, but I'm not slighting you on purpose for having one of numerous competing plans that I happened to overlook because I was trying to catch up on a lot of stuff.

I'd agree, but if the Trump years have shown anything it is that giving bigots legitimacy increases hate crimes rather than decreases them. They feel emboldened and protected to act out their desires.
I think there's a sizeable difference between what's being proposed here, and the dynamics of the Trump years.

IF isn't getting much more public legitimacy than they'd have anyway, they're not getting a giant propaganda machine dedicated to forming an echo chamber supporting them, they're not getting their man into Litvinov or Hackett or Seo's chair. It's just... I think we're letting Trump-era political trauma color our responses a little more than is appropriate here.

I can understand intentionally starving IF in hopes that they'll become a tiny but violent problem for InOps to squash instead of a medium-sized but nonviolent problem participating in our politics. But I don't think we should assume that the latter course of action means "oh hey we're headed for Trumpism."

I'd rather deal with this now, while Nod is too weak to capitalize on it, than to kick the can down the road at the cost of the well-being of our citizenry.
Bit of a timescale mismatch here. Us snubbing IF now doesn't mean IF is "dealt with." Their parliamentary delegation stays the same size and loudness right up through 2064. Radicalization and rising violence take time and are likely to be happening years from now, not next week.

If Nod's still too beaten up to do much about that then, I'll count us much luckier than I expect.

The rest of the plan... I'll be real, I have a very hard time parsing the plan. I feel like I'm voting much more blindly then I want to be. I haven't seen anything I don't want on just about any plan, but that's the most I can say. If anyone's willing to help me on that, it'd be greatly appreciated.
Well, the big points under dispute seem mainly to be:

1) How hard should we lean into finishing industrial capstones?
2) How hard should we lean into space population?
3) What do we promise Litvinov?
4) Most contentiously, to snub IF

What are your thoughts/questions on those issues?
 
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We're not putting them into gulags, just refusing to work with the politicians they elected, which we are absolutely allowed to do.
Of course.

Can't let them feel like the people in charge actually care about them or let them feel like their concerns will be listened to or like they have a voice that might be heard or that their dutifully elected representatives would ever be allowed to represent.

Best to freeze them out of the government process entirely. Let them feel powerless and rejected by those in power. Make it clear that the leaders explicitly do not have their interests in mind. That they are on the bottom rung.

And if they ever lash out... well.... that's on them, isn't it?

Edit: Sorry. I'm just venting a bit.

I'm just getting really annoyed with this kind of stuff. It feels like people are deliberately trying to make a underclass based off of them not having the correct point of view. That rubs me the wrong way. I want GDI to at least try and work with everyone.
 
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From past experience, "people in space" is Orbital projects, and "guns in space" is Military projects. If we're worried about the Visitors, we need to make sure we have space clear in the Military projects tab to build cool shit for fighting space wars, more so than in the Orbital projects tab.
Shipyards to get the "guns in space" to the Visitor base are Orbital.
And that lunar base is likely to be expensive if we don't build the Fusion Shipyard as well, which is more Orbital.
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)
 
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They have spent the last 50+ years fighting the yellow zone.
<...>
When you voice is not heard then what other option do you have? If the government says fuck you then why wouldn't you decide to say fuck you back and make your voice be heard?
No, the GDI spent last 50+ years fighting Nod. People from Yellow Zones just happened to live there, with the GDI of old playing no small role in them having little other choice than to live and work with Nod. And IF is not a party that wants to fight Nod - that's Militarists, one of the biggest parties in our government. They're also not the party that places the return to pre-TW3 life above all else - that's FMP and some of the Developmentalists. The core of IF platform is "We don't want people from Yellow Zones around", and that is very much not a reasonable thing to ask for. If they can't "suck it up" so much they will resort to terrorism instead of trying to launch grassroots movements or peaceful protests or achieving something in the internal political game with other parties, they very much deserve whatever response InOps will give them..
 
IF isn't getting much more public legitimacy than they'd have anyway, they're not getting a giant propaganda machine dedicated to forming an echo chamber supporting them, they're not getting their man into Litvinov or Hackett or Seo's chair. It's just... I think we're letting Trump-era political trauma color our responses a little more than is appropriate here.

I can understand intentionally starving IF in hopes that they'll become a tiny but violent problem for InOps to squash instead of a medium-sized but nonviolent problem participating in our politics. But I don't think we should assume that the latter course of action means "oh hey we're headed for Trumpism."
Working with them is giving them legitimacy, it's saying that a political party whose major planks include "getting that filth out of our cities and universities" is worth working with and making compromises for. Making that acceptable by saying "sure, we can work with you if you don't say that part so loud" is only going to backfire. You can't moderate bigotry away, IF voters won't actually become less racist and classist, they'll just compromise their actions for now until they can push further. It won't lead to something like Trumpism right now, but it'll plant the seeds for it in the future. If some refugee crisis breaks out due to a war between the batarians and some other terminus power in a few decades, do we want "keep those dirty foreigners out of our cities" to still be acceptable political speech?

Of course.

Can't let them feel like the people in charge actually care about them or let them feel like their concerns will be listened to or like they have a voice that might be heard or that their dutifully elected representatives would ever be allowed to represent.

Best to freeze them out of the government process entirely. Let them feel powerless and rejected by those in power. Make it clear that the leaders explicitly do not have their interests in mind. That they are on the bottom rung.

And if they ever lash out... well.... that's on them, isn't it?

Edit: Sorry. I'm just venting a bit.

I'm just getting really annoyed with this kind of stuff. It feels like people are deliberately trying to make a underclass based off of them not having the correct point of view. That rubs me the wrong way. I want GDI to at least try and work with everyone.
Democracy doesn't mean we have to do what everyone wants. If refugees say "I'd like to have rights" and IF say "Send them back to the YZs to die", the correct option is not to let them in but oppress them a bit, to let them know that some people don't want them here. They have a voice, they have representatives in parliament, they're being heard, we're just going "what they're saying is terrible and I don't want to work with them."

We are democratically accountable, that's why we have to get enough votes to set our plan goals. We don't and shouldn't have to please literally everyone. Democracy ideally means everyone gets heard. It doesn't mean everyone gets what they want.
 
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I mean. The actual proposals under discussion are not "let the IF oppress Yellow Zoners a bit." They're along the lines of "build some forts that the IF actively wants and the other parties don't care about, but that might well be a good idea anyway even if nobody was asking for them."

Remember, we've done a LOT of stuff that NO party extracted promises from us to do, purely because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Promising to do something that is not inherently harmful to Yellow Zoners, in terms of physically pouring physical concrete and building bunkers, simply cannot plausibly be seen as "letting IF hurt Yellow Zoners." Even if IF asked us to do it and the other parties were like "sure whatever you do you," the way they've been with the last several phases of fortress towns we built.

Edit: Sorry. I'm just venting a bit.

I'm just getting really annoyed with this kind of stuff. It feels like people are deliberately trying to make a underclass based off of them not having the correct point of view. That rubs me the wrong way. I want GDI to at least try and work with everyone.
"Underclass" isn't really the word, I think, because there's no proposal to economically exploit them or anything.

"Group of people who never get what they want and whose representatives never get anyone to answer their calls" would be more accurate, but I'm not sure there's a concise word for that.

...

Then again, consider this. Imagine you're a voter for a fringe party in a multiparty parliamentary system. A faction that makes up less than 10% of the electorate, that has few interests in common with any other major party, and whose leaders regularly make demands no likely majority coalition will want to grant, given how few supporters you are.

Being frozen out of the electoral process is pretty normal in that situation. Realistically, in a multiparty system, a party generally gets entirely ignored unless it can muster at least 20% or so of the vote, or unless its demands are modest enough that it can "play nice with others" and integrate into a coalition built around larger, typically more moderate parties.

Initiative First is in precisely the situation where if they complain about their political impotence, one is tempted to look at them and go "yeah, well what the fuck did you expect to happen?"

...

I'm frankly sympathetic to both sides of the actual OOC argument here.

I can respect the desire to just totally shun IF and let them do whatever they do in isolation as long as we're not responsible, because they're disgusting.

I can also respect the desire to engage with whatever residual non-toxic desires and tendencies they have, which we can grant without actually doing anything wrong, in hopes of figuring out some kind of path to reconciliation and a better world that doesn't involve InOps putting on the counterinsurgency boots again. Because IF is disgusting, but importantly, simply too weak to be a realistic threat, and us building some forts won't change that.
 
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I would like to bring up a point that has been somewhat glossed over, not completely snubbing IF will give them more legitimacy and make it easier for them to convince people to join them, and that is being used as a major reason to completely snub them. Because more people in IF means more Terrorists when the group inevitably splits in some form or another when we negotiate with Kane. I don't think that's true, or atleast, I don't think its true enough to matter.

Mainly because I believe most everyone who would radicalize to the point of becoming a terrorist in Support of IF goals already have joined IF, meaning that the vast majority of people who do join and vote IF because we accepted the proposals we were already going to do regardless are not going to radicalize themselves to the point of becoming terrorists. Therefor, I think it's best to not completely snub them, not only because of what I mentioned above, but because completely snubbing them will hasten their radicalization and split from being a racist political party into a terror group.

Like, sure, I understand why people are nervous and want to shut them out, but if they are going to have a split and have some of their members become terrorists no matter what why shouldn't we do what we can to delay that until we can better handle it and lower the number of them that do become terrorists?
 
Not going to lie, I find this whope IF discussion stupid and worthless, because I don't see anything useful being gained from the whole story path existing. The topic understandably is loaded with a lot of emotion about how to handle right wing groups from the real world, but when I see the discussion it has generated I feel strongly to just return into the void I retreated to before Simon lured me back with a space focused plan.
No idea what went through Ithillids head with this one. I don't have the energy for this vote, I am out, please just don't try to get the thread locked. Will probably return, but right now I feel less inclined to do so than ever.
 
Best to freeze them out of the government process entirely. Let them feel powerless and rejected by those in power. Make it clear that the leaders explicitly do not have their interests in mind. That they are on the bottom rung.
Yeah, those poor oppressed people who lived their entire lives in the Blue Zones to the point their main concern is not letting Yellow Zoners live near them. It is perhaps understandable that they feel fear - but that fear is not reasonable. The proper response to that fear is not to compromise with the political party whose entire relevancy depends on that unreasonable fear, it's to reach out to their voters directly and help them overcome it. IF is never going to do so, because that will take away their entire raison d'etre, but perhaps we can. Or at least we can fund and work with people who can.
 
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I'm just getting really annoyed with this kind of stuff. It feels like people are deliberately trying to make a underclass based off of them not having the correct point of view. That rubs me the wrong way. I want GDI to at least try and work with everyone.
My guy, IF is (the remains of) the privileged elite in many cases. Even on the low end, many of them are de facto in a place of privilege compared to the newly-arriving Yellow Zoners they want to marginalize, being broadly 'better' educated (at least more comprehensively, according to GDI's criteria for educational standards), better positioned to pass screening for upper-echelon jobs (due to GDI records making such checks simpler), and so on and so forth.
 
My guy, IF is (the remains of) the privileged elite in many cases. Even on the low end, many of them are de facto in a place of privilege compared to the newly-arriving Yellow Zoners they want to marginalize, being broadly 'better' educated (at least more comprehensively, according to GDI's criteria for educational standards), better positioned to pass screening for upper-echelon jobs (due to GDI records making such checks simpler), and so on and so forth.
What does that have to do with the government deciding that their concerns are on the bottom of the pile? At least as far as the priorities the government cares about.

I'm sure everything you said is true but I have no idea why it's relevant.
 
Like, sure, I understand why people are nervous and want to shut them out, but if they are going to have a split and have some of their members become terrorists no matter what why shouldn't we do what we can to delay that until we can better handle it and lower the number of them that do become terrorists?
There are plenty of people who don't like yellow zoners but see other issues as more important, or think IF goes too far. If we work with IF, accepting plan goals they proposed, they'll get credit when we accomplish them and be seen as a party that can get things done, allowing them to recruit people who aren't single issue "Screw Yellow Zoners" voters. And as has been well demonstrated in recent years, getting sucked into that sort of radicalisation pipeline can rapidly change relatively normal people into absolute lunatics 100% onboard with terrorism and extremism.

Working with IF will only strengthen them and make it harder to deal with them in the long term. The way to deal with them is to marginalise them and peel of the less extreme voters to parties that actually get things done, not compromise with them to try to delay violence and only make things worse.
 
@Ithillid , if we promise the Militarists to take, say, ten military development projects, do we have to specify which ten? Because that just feels like Plan clutter to me.
You need to specify which ten, but that is primarily because the ones that you don't take are highly likely to show up in future political promises packages. "Develop X, Y, Z, +AdB steps" type deals.
 
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs And No Radicalization For You Mr IF
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)
[X]plan: All Spin-offs, Minimum Extra Promises, IF Version

I don't like the IF. I like the idea of setting a precedent that the Treasury can in-effect ban a major political party - because it does count as a major political party seeing as it's got more than 5% of the vote share - as even more problematic.
 
What does that have to do with the government deciding that their concerns are on the bottom of the pile? At least as far as the priorities the government cares about.

I'm sure everything you said is true but I have no idea why it's relevant.
"Making a underclass" is what I was addressing. Your words.

The point of a democracy is arguably to satisfy the greatest number of people, and we as the government have an obligation to do that and keep our people safe. Deplatforming IF means yes, they are denied a voice in government so long as IF's ideals are what they cling to, but the nature of a democracy is people need not be joined at the hip with a political affiliation. If they (either the politicians or the voters) want they can jump ship to any other party affiliation. On the flip-side, giving them a voice may well embolden them and is only going to mean they stick around and continue calling for us to continually marginalize and segregate former Yellow-Zoners, which is going to be both unsatisfactory and unsafe for the latter. And people coming in from the Yellow Zones are an ever-increasing voice and proportion of our population.

If it comes down to shunting one group or the other aside - and let's be honest, it will, they're too diametrically opposed and the political landscape there is only going to get more polarized - I'd prefer to shunt out the people who decided bigotry was their hill to die on.
 
[X] Plan All The Spinoffs
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (without Initiative First)
[X] Plan Attempting To Go To Space (grudgingly with Initiative First)
 
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