I might be wrong about this but isn't expanding Chicago's processing capability practically required for the Super Glacier Mines some are talking about? The plan was to put them on the long stretch of Red Zone that has almost zero Nod presence due to severing the yellow zone in North America. And then shipping all that mined Tiberium to Chicago for processing.
The only other stretch of controlled Red Zone is in Australia. And I think Australia lacks enough local processing capability to support a SGM complex. So that means shipping the surplus out by cargo ship. Right under Bintang's nose. There were some constructed near Adelaide last turn but will that be enough to support an Australian Super Glacier Mine?
And back to Chicago. How much of Chicago's processing capacity is used right now by local mining?

Basically the question is will we have enough local processing for Super Glacier Mines. While we have enough distributed processing capacity across the entire GDI I'm curious if there is enough free local processing capacity near the planned SGM sites.

Because when it comes to refuges and low quality housing (with Chicago blocking another wave of apartments). Those refuges are coming from worse living conditions. They aren't being housed in refuge camps which were a problem at the start of the quest (and were a problem still in canon timeline). Unless I'm missing something we moved everyone who was in low quality housing before the Regency War. So anyone there moved there during the Regency War from Nod territory or decided not to move as housing became available. I think with the trickle from the Bureau of Arcologies (which moves those longest staying low quality housing residents) and us most likely restarting apartments as soon as possible. And even with the current surge we won't run out of low quality housing for 5 turns.
Chicago 'blocking another wave of apartments' is not something I read into it-nor is it's processing capacity required for super glacier mines when we have like 900 processing capacity slack.

Also, I think people are sleeping on alloys because it has a rather ordinary name but it is important to do our major civilian research sooner rather than later.
 
Basically the question is will we have enough local processing for Super Glacier Mines. While we have enough distributed processing capacity across the entire GDI I'm curious if there is enough free local processing capacity near the planned SGM sites.

We just built 600 cap of modern refineries in forward positions, and have another 600 on deck pretty trivially if we need more, not even counting the slack we had before this turn. Australia will be more than capable of processing the Tiberium in-house, it's a whole relatively secure continent with easy access to unmolested Red Zone mining, they're probably going to be our industrial powerhouse of the 2060's. Chicago will provide a convenient processing and manufacturing center all in one for the North American part of the operations, but globally in Australia/Europe they'll have their own local solutions, and the concentration of all the North American eggs into the Chicago basket isn't necessarily 100% good. It's also not 100% bad, there's just tradeoffs versus a more decentralized model, especially somewhere as hot as the North American theater.
 
I might be wrong about this but isn't expanding Chicago's processing capability practically required for the Super Glacier Mines some are talking about? The plan was to put them on the long stretch of Red Zone that has almost zero Nod presence due to severing the yellow zone in North America. And then shipping all that mined Tiberium to Chicago for processing.

The only other stretch of controlled Red Zone is in Australia. And I think Australia lacks enough local processing capability to support a SGM complex. So that means shipping the surplus out by cargo ship. Right under Bintang's nose. There were some constructed near Adelaide last turn but will that be enough to support an Australian Super Glacier Mine?

And back to Chicago. How much of Chicago's processing capacity is used right now by local mining?
I think we'll be all right either way, really. GDI knows how to position refinery complexes, we just built a big set of 'em that expanded our overall global capacity from about 2400 to 3000, there are already refineries in every Blue Zone, and so on. Besides, there are at least four sites for direct pushes into the Red Zones that I can see:

1) Upper Mississippi Valley, roughly Minnesota and Iowa.
2) Great Salt Lake region, roughly Utah.
3) Central Europe, roughly along a line sweeping along the Alps up through Austria and into... Czecho/Slovakia, maybe?
4) As noted, the East Australian Outback.

Tiberium from area (2) would almost have to be processed on the west coast of North America, since we have no well-secured land shipping route from there to Chicago. Tiberium from (3) could go anywhere in multiple Blue Zones that we might use that broadly reduce to "Northern Europe."

Among other things, note that the recent wave of refineries was built entirely after GDI's conquests in Steel Vanguard, so they were probably positioned with the possibility of future direct Red Zone mining in mind.

I'm not too worried about it. While I have a Chicago plan, note that I have totally approval-voted a Chicago-free version of the same plan with no qualms! I think it'll be fine.:)

Because when it comes to refuges and low quality housing (with Chicago blocking another wave of apartments). Those refuges are coming from worse living conditions. They aren't being housed in refuge camps which were a problem at the start of the quest (and were a problem still in canon timeline). Unless I'm missing something we moved everyone who was in low quality housing before the Regency War. So anyone there moved there during the Regency War from Nod territory or decided not to move as housing became available. I think with the trickle from the Bureau of Arcologies (which moves those longest staying low quality housing residents) and us most likely restarting apartments as soon as possible. And even with the current surge we won't run out of low quality housing for 5 turns.
Broadly speaking I agree, but I think Derpmind and others are right to be concerned, and I do want to do my best to improve matters.

There have been some hints in the narrative, by the way, that Yellow Zone refugees may like communal housing better than we think if we play our cards right. There were remarks about them having trouble getting used to transitioning from big clannish extended family lifestyles to GDI's more atomized way of life... Well... communal housing. Maybe. If we're careful.

There are a couple other projects that I'd do the same to (especially with Chicago potentially taking up some of the slack for ZOCOM in NA), but c'est la vie.
Hm. How do you see Chicago helping in that way?

Also, I think people are sleeping on alloys because it has a rather ordinary name but it is important to do our major civilian research sooner rather than later.
The way I see it, it's low-cost enough that we can finish it off with a single die in 2062Q1, and any major deployment project based on it would have to wait for Personal Electric Vehicles anyway.

Unless said deployment project were itself a 10 R/die project, which... Well, my experiences with Heavy Industry projects in the game to date suggest to me that this is unlikely.
 
Plan Save Moneys, with more SCIENCE! is now only five votes behind Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago. Can we find six voters to bring Save Moneys to the top, if you are a lurker then its your time to shine now! :)
 
Hm. How do you see Chicago helping in that way?
It's relatively close to the Red Zone that we'll be mining as part of the Red Zone Border Offensives. From past experience, we know that building up Chicago also involves building up our military assets in the area.

So by building up Chicago, we'll have more military assets to 1) observe the area, 2) respond if the local warlords try something funny. Both of which combine to increase the security of the local red zone mining ops and transport to/from the mines (including some that were pre-existing), reducing the strain on ZOCOM. It's pretty much the best reason to be trying to complete it this turn, instead of waiting for alloys to finish and diverting the free dice to other HI projects.

I do think we want a second die on ZOCOM this turn, but there's an 83% chance that it will do nothing for them at all if it is placed on London. If it's placed on a different ZOCOM factory/platform/tech, that has a very high chance of having them even better prepared for red zone operations next turn. And I suspect that means that ZOCOM would be happier with us for doing so.

edit:
That said, I still think HQ housing is a priority for us more so than Chicago. But if we are going for it, it has a silver lining in letting us reduce our investments in ZOCOM.
 
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@Simon_Jester You probably need to remove the "X" in the plan-name line from posts prior to your latest one to fix the vote tallier.
Thank you.

Plan Save Moneys, with more SCIENCE! is now only five votes behind Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago. Can we find six voters to bring Save Moneys to the top, if you are a lurker then its your time to shine now! :)
On the other hand, if you're a lurker who wants banks, Chicago, and/or going into reallocation with so much Political Support we practically HAVE to spend some of it on cushier Plan goals... now could also be your time to shine! ;)

It's relatively close to the Red Zone that we'll be mining as part of the Red Zone Border Offensives. From past experience, we know that building up Chicago also involves building up our military assets in the area.

So by building up Chicago, we'll have more military assets to 1) observe the area, 2) respond if the local warlords try something funny. Both of which combine to increase the security of the local red zone mining ops and transport to/from the mines (including some that were pre-existing), reducing the strain on ZOCOM. It's pretty much the best reason to be trying to complete it this turn, instead of waiting for alloys to finish and diverting the free dice to other HI projects.
That's a fair point.

I do think we want a second die on ZOCOM this turn, but there's an 83% chance that it will do nothing for them at all if it is placed on London. If it's placed on a different ZOCOM factory/platform/tech, that has a very high chance of having them even better prepared for red zone operations next turn. And I suspect that means that ZOCOM would be happier with us for doing so.
Ehhh. I think in this case, the specific need to actually have those Zone Suits is very high. ZOCOM didn't try to make a special deal with us because they want better guns- not that they don't want them, but that's nto the reason. No, they want whole-ass regiments of Ground Force troops in power armor and trained to use it, as soon as possible.

I think we need to make very sure we deliver on that specific promise, because that's the thing they most strongly say that they need, and it's the thing we promised to deliver on a tight timeframe.
 
Ehhh. I think in this case, the specific need to actually have those Zone Suits is very high. ZOCOM didn't try to make a special deal with us because they want better guns- not that they don't want them, but that's nto the reason. No, they want whole-ass regiments of Ground Force troops in power armor and trained to use it, as soon as possible.

I think we need to make very sure we deliver on that specific promise, because that's the thing they most strongly say that they need, and it's the thing we promised to deliver on a tight timeframe.
Keep in mind that they understand and accept that the timeframe may extend past the end of this quarter, considering the very short notice they gave us. The important thing was that we made a good faith effort to complete the projects*, we're good to go.

It's not like they are going to have the people to train enough troops for the second factory this turn, they are already stripping their bases bare supporting the current cohort. So even if the second factory doesn't complete this turn, it's unlikely to seriously move back their timeframes.

(Also made an edit to be clear that I prefer apartments to Chicago, but that is fairly unimportant this late in the stage).

*ithillid's given example had ZOCOM accepting of the following outcomes:
-[0.61^3]=~22.7% probability of no factories
-[3x (.61^2x.39)=~43.5% probability of one factory
-[3x (.61x.39^2)]= ~27.9% probability of two factories
-[.39^3]= ~5.9% probability of three factories
And we have a 83% chance of completing a second factory, I think we are doing far better than ZOCOM expected when we made the deal.
 
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Keep in mind that they understand and accept that the timeframe may extend past the end of this quarter, considering the very short notice they gave us. The important thing was that we made a good faith effort to complete the projects*, we're good to go.

It's not like they are going to have the people to train enough troops for the second factory this turn, they are already stripping their bases bare supporting the current cohort. So even if the second factory doesn't complete this turn, it's unlikely to seriously move back their timeframes.
Hm. I don't mean to be argumentative, but my reading is that they actually do need the output of the second factory, hence them asking for it on the timeline originally discussed.

It may well be that they're actually training like... I don't know, 40,000 people, and they know the factories only produce 10,000 suits per quarter each, so if they want to have 40,000 suits ready by some time in Q2 (by which point those troops have gone through six months' training), then they might then actually need both factories producing starting this quarter. I made those numbers up, to be clear, but it's an example.

So I suspect that they might understand and not blame us... But it'd still mess up their plans somewhat, and that messing up of plans would then chain directly back around and impact our own plans for the Red Zones.

...

The way I figure it, the thing ZOCOM asked for is probably the thing they want most in all the world. The thing they're willing to exert most or all of their available leverage for- notice that they didn't come back this turn to offer us a second deal; that's probably because they have little more political capital to burn at the moment.

So I want to make very sure I give them specifically what they asked for, given the high stakes of getting ZOCOM stuff right, and that the commanding generals of both ZOCOM and Ground Force have made a plan that revolves around ZOCOM getting that specific thing.

And what they asked for was two factories, not one factory, probably a second, and half of a third.

Once we get into the new plan, mind you, I am going to be all about trickling dice into Zone Armor plants rather than overspending on any one plant. All over that. But then we won't be under a tight schedule deadline where we have a huge-deal planning issue coming up at us like a flyswatter. For now, I prefer to take no chances.
 
Say guys, how would you feel about Karachi VI, the 2080 progress City Of Peace? :D (this is not a discord thing, but rather my own creation)
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago

Mostly because I want the civilian economy to tick up more so we get sweet, sweet taxes. +5 a turn is nice, anything more would be better.
 
The way I figure it, the thing ZOCOM asked for is probably the thing they want most in all the world. The thing they're willing to exert most or all of their available leverage for- notice that they didn't come back this turn to offer us a second deal; that's probably because they have little more political capital to burn at the moment.
They did not come back this turn to offer you a second deal because you already have a deal outstanding. They have political capital to spend, they are just not doing it directly with you because they already made a deal with you and are waiting for you to finish carrying through.
 
I actually really like that the ground forces and Zocom went out of their way to figure out a plan to allow red zone work Asap BECAUSE it feels like the other half interdepartmental favor we did rushing the Zone Armor Factories is being fulfilled beyond simply +PS.

If its not and building the armor would have resulted in the same situation even if we hadn't promised don't tell me as it will spoil something special.
 
Say guys, how would you feel about Karachi VI, the 2080 progress City Of Peace? :D (this is not a discord thing, but rather my own creation)
So long as it is half populated by sentient Gana citizens, I see very little problem.

That said, I still think HQ housing is a priority for us more so than Chicago. But if we are going for it, it has a silver lining in letting us reduce our investments in ZOCOM.
I'm not really sure Chicago would do much for ZOCOM, probably less than giving them new sonic weapons.
--brought to you by the Department of Shameless Plan-Shilling
 
Say guys, how would you feel about Karachi VI, the 2080 progress City Of Peace? :D (this is not a discord thing, but rather my own creation)
As long as you're not trying to figure out how to fit it in by 2065Q4, I'll give it a look. :p

[ahh my aching head]

They did not come back this turn to offer you a second deal because you already have a deal outstanding. They have political capital to spend, they are just not doing it directly with you because they already made a deal with you and are waiting for you to finish carrying through.
A fair point. Sorry for accidentally bothering you.

With that said, I feel a strong desire to actually carry through on this particular deal in specifics and in full. ZOCOM goes through a lot of shit for us, and this is important to them.
 
I actually really like that the ground forces and Zocom went out of their way to figure out a plan to allow red zone work Asap BECAUSE it feels like the other half interdepartmental favor we did rushing the Zone Armor Factories is being fulfilled beyond simply +PS.

If its not and building the armor would have resulted in the same situation even if we hadn't promised don't tell me as it will spoil something special.
It's more that the QM-confirmed plan had a 78% chance that we'd have at least one Zone Armor factory up and running by the end of the year, making red zone operations possible in Q1 and Q2. We got that factory out a turn early, so we're starting the operations up now.

The second factory needs to be out by the end of Q1 if we want to be able to do additional red zone operations in Q3 and Q4. One die has an 83% chance of completing it this turn, and a second next turn would basically guarantee its completion in the small chance that it fails this turn.
 
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