maybe some industrial applications for processing scrap metal and melting down materials
The thing is, we already know how to do that relatively safely using large amounts of electricity.

And the main application of high temperature scrap processing is metallurgy, where exposing the metal to fire is actually kind of inconvenient and a lot of options for doing so introduce chemical impurities to the metal. Inferno gel may very well not be well suited to ensuring chemical purity.

Okay, but it's still something that should be noted and underlined, as while overly pessimistic assessments are good for creating a lower border of the future plan to use as basis, they are not so good for selling the plan currently on vote.
Yeah, but I did say it, and at this point it's like four pages back and I'm not sure anyone's reading it anymore. I think the vote just divides mostly into two categories:

"I want Chicago and/or banks, so I'm voting for Chicago and banks."
or
"Oh sweet, more money for us to do stuff with! No banks!"

I don't think it's really... about... my budgetary estimates anymore.
 
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@Lightwhispers, is there any chance you could move one Military die, say Modular Rapid Assembly Systems, to either Monitor or Island-class development? We may be about to lose both options permanently with reallocation. Islands might be vital for post-Karachi naval offensives, but Monitors could be out sooner.
I am contemplating doing that, and perhaps also swapping a Vein Mine die to Liquid Tiberium power, but am hesitant to do so if there are people who think that would change the plan sufficiently that their already-existing votes would be problematic.

That said, I also do not believe at all that we are about to lose Islands or Monitor development 1 turn after we were given the warning about that happening.
I'm not proposing to do the banking reforms because I have a complicated profit-loss statement all worked out.

I'm proposing to do the banking reforms because I consider "get the civilian economy up, running, and thriving" to be one of those fundamental overarching objectives that falls under the broad heading of "do your job" for the government agency responsible for managing the economy.
That's not a bad view - but I consider the civilian economy to be already up and running, and thriving only somewhat less than it would with the reforms.
I would like to poke you all regarding starting up [ ] inferno gel next turn and deploying it asap to the Himalayan blue zone I feel that it would synergies fantasticly with zone armor for ruining NODs biomechanical monstrosity's with minimal risk to our troops
Not realy a big plan man but doll I do think this is being heavily slept on

Edit hell after some thought it could be hacked into a stealth detector if airbursted sufficiently far above little bits of flaming gel would stick to stealth tanks and such making them dead meat or forcing a retreat a direct hit is not required
Why do you think inferno gel is some kind of "shut down biomonsters" weapon when our existing weapons are not? The obvious thing to try next would be railgun munitions, preferably the kind that punch deep into a target and detonate in its internals. We haven't even deployed the first phase of railgun munitions yet.
Yeah, if you want an "anti-biomonsters in tunnels" weapon, go for Zone Armor or the GD-3 rifle. Inferno gel is mostly being looked at as an anti-vehicle weapon, and while it might have side uses, I'm not particularly enthused by it.
I don't really see why the Treasury should be trying to influence what the Navy puts in the fleet plan. Are the Navy not the experts here? We could easily be locking in something sub-optimal.
Because the Treasury builds the shipyards. It's how Ithillid designed the system. (Think of it as the Treasury being involved in the procurement process because otherwise the Navy would ask for the sun, moon, and stars because they don't need to pay for it, perhaps?)
 
I don't really see why the Treasury should be trying to influence what the Navy puts in the fleet plan. Are the Navy not the experts here? We could easily be locking in something sub-optimal.
This isn't about the Navy dictating strategy. It's about the Navy sitting for years asking the Treasury to help fund the expensive effort to fully R&D and prototype an entirely new ship class/design, and the Treasury doing literally nothing of the kind. After a certain point of asking someone to do something, and them not doing it, you stop asking. Because if they don't give a single solitary shit, why should you?

[X] Lightwhispers
[X] Shadows
 
Any thoughts on how many Shipyards are there gonna be for Victories and Islands?

I think they're not in such demand as Governors and CVE, so 3 each? Maybe?
 
I don't really see why the Treasury should be trying to influence what the Navy puts in the fleet plan. Are the Navy not the experts here? We could easily be locking in something sub-optimal.
The Treasury inherently gets a say in how military procurement goes.

- Military: We want X, Y, and Z capabilities.
- Treasury: We can afford X, and maybe Y. Z is too expensive.

That is the dynamic. And the military takes what you tell them, and then changes what they are asking for in many cases. And when the two policy platforms meet, that is what gets produced. You deciding "hey we are not going to be able to fund these two projects for the Navy" gets the Navy deciding "well if Treasury thinks those are not things that can get funded, we can ask for other stuff"
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago

Had a tough time deciding between plan save money and plan banking this time. Good points made for both. Ultimately going to side with getting the banking reform ticking immediately, even if there are a few items in that plan I don't feel are huge priorities, such as the Island class ships. Not clear on why Chicago has gotten the love compared with other things, but I'm not unhappy to get that finalised, and don't want to pester people for something they no doubt explained 50 pages ago (like, wow the discussion here moves fast).

I feel that the growth in the civilian economy could conceivably be exponential, which pushes it into priority over the very good thing that saving money would allow us to do. I think the debate between the two is helpful is getting us a the best possible plan so thanks everyone who's been working on proposals.
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks And Walls Of Guns


Updating my vote since the Guns option isn't likely to win and I find the alternative plan more to my liking than waiting to open the bank.
 
Not clear on why Chicago has gotten the love compared with other things

For me it's that it's been years since any work was done on it. It's been so long it's no longer a abatement project and is now going to be a new industrial hub.

I think that Chicago plus banking reforms and the redistribution that's about to happen sends a really strong message that the war is over for now, it's time to deal with our new gains, development is back on the menu boys!

Or something like that.
 
I am contemplating doing that, and perhaps also swapping a Vein Mine die to Liquid Tiberium power, but am hesitant to do so if there are people who think that would change the plan sufficiently that their already-existing votes would be problematic.
If I were you, I'd do it.

Notice that your plan surged in popularity after you pointed out that under your plan, we'd have a much larger reserve fund and in consequence be much more free to activate all dice in 2062Q1 even if we are unable or unwilling to divest ourselves of any budget line items.

(if, to be clear, we postponed the banking reforms until late 2062, didn't bother with Chicago Phase 4 until probably around the same timeframe, and made some other changes on a smaller scale)

Nobody has encouraged me to cut dice from tiberium power and put them on vein mining. I don't think there's much demand for it, frankly, and my sense is that people don't care which we do. If they did, you'd probably be getting more pushback against your plan. I suspect that an option that trades -1 Capital Goods for a bunch of income that we then immediately lose three quarters of isn't as attractive to voters as an option that gives us power plants we get to keep. I could be wrong, but that's my gut instinct.

Yeah, if you want an "anti-biomonsters in tunnels" weapon, go for Zone Armor or the GD-3 rifle. Inferno gel is mostly being looked at as an anti-vehicle weapon, and while it might have side uses, I'm not particularly enthused by it.
In all fairness, antitank weapons get shot at biomonsters a lot, because Nod biomonsters blur the line between "infantry" and "vehicle" in terms of firepower and durability, very much as power armored human troops do.

I won't be surprised if, in the event that we develop inferno gel, it gets used on biomonsters. I just don't expect it to be a "killer app" weapon that shuts them down as a threat significantly better than, say, large caliber SAPHE rounds for railguns designed to be carried by Zone Armor. Because that kind of incendiary mix has disadvantages, which is a big part of why even Nod doesn't use it primarily.

i think there's a tendency among the people with a lot of gaming experience to think "inferno gel is fire, fire damage is best against squishy organic 'meat' opponents, biomonsters are basically just big 'meat' opponents, all squishy-like, so the gel will work on them." But this game seems to run on a more simulationist perspective. And it's not obvious that a splatter of incendiary will stop a heavily engineered cyborg animal whose skin is almost certainly totally deadened to pain and also guarded by armor, when multiple railgun hits won't.

Not clear on why Chicago has gotten the love compared with other things, but I'm not unhappy to get that finalised, and don't want to pester people for something they no doubt explained 50 pages ago (like, wow the discussion here moves fast).
The biggest reasons for me, at least, are:

1) Because it's +6 Capital Goods for 550 Progress, which isn't great but is pretty good by the standards of anything that isn't a Heavy Industry megaproject and we can't afford to do any of those right now anyway.

2) Because we've committed to finishing it now as a Plan commitment, and getting 500-650 or so points of the project out of the way now means we have more room to do other things later.

3) It's also a civilian production center, and a sizeable one, which helps a lot.
 
i think there's a tendency among the people with a lot of gaming experience to think "inferno gel is fire, fire damage is best against squishy organic 'meat' opponents, biomonsters are basically just big 'meat' opponents, all squishy-like, so the gel will work on them." But this game seems to run on a more simulationist perspective. And it's not obvious that a splatter of incendiary will stop a heavily engineered cyborg animal whose skin is almost certainly totally deadened to pain and also guarded by armor, when multiple railgun hits won't.
Well, lets be fair here. Outside of the lower velocity infantry railguns, pretty much any railgun hit splatters a gana hard. The thing is that even now, railguns are not hugely common.
 
I'm a little nervous about the "double dipping" guarantee wording. During past reapportionments we regularly "double dipped" in the sense of promising the same thing to two parties and getting credit from both of them for doing it because they both wanted the same thing. I'm sure we'll get to do that again, so if (for instance) the Market Socialists and the Developmentalists both want us to promise +1200 RpT of GDP growth, we can get support from both for promising it.

What I'm not so sure about is whether we can promise the Developmentalists +1200 RpT now and still get extra credit from the Socialists for promising it to them later when they know we're already committed to doing it whether they vote for our Plan outline or not. And I'm not sure the QM's comment on that subject really clears that up? Clearly simultaneous double dipping is allowed, but I'm not sure that means double dipping in separate quarters is allowed. The second party you negotiate with should already know what you've agreed to do, after all, and baked that into their decision-making.
Since you are in the thread @Ithillid, would you mind offering a bit more clarification on whether/how promises to parties prior to reallocation effect our ability to make those promises again in reallocation?
 
For the record, I do remain enthused by Inferno Gel, and want to at least do development, if not deployment.


To be fair. the threads Inferno Gel facination is probably a combination of a few things.

1) We all want our selves some Forbidden Weapons and Inferno Gel has the right combination of being cheap and complete awesome despite being impractical.
2) Any Tiberium Wars Players want to pay back against the matches we lost thanks to Avatars with Flame Throwers
3) It has a cool name /s
 
To be fair. the threads Inferno Gel facination is probably a combination of a few things.

1) We all want our selves some Forbidden Weapons and Inferno Gel has the right combination of being cheap and complete awesome despite being impractical.
2) Any Tiberium Wars Players want to pay back against the matches we lost thanks to Avatars with Flame Throwers
3) It has a cool name /s
It's more like (for me at least) wanting to see what we would get from researching it.

Now, most likely, we will gain more insights into chemical combustion and one or two new weapon projects, or maybe just a remixing of current weapons to automatically improve performance.

Regardless, I just want to know. Maybe it ends up being something really useful for industrial applications.

And if it's a new weapon deployment we don't like, super human igniter fluid or something as terrible, we don't have to deploy it.

I want to research ALL the tech projects just to we know what our options are and potential really cool stuff isn't just hidden under <inferno gel (tech)>.
 
The biggest reasons for me, at least, are:
Personally I am approval voting your chicago plan due to non-chicago based issues.

I haven't seen a plan I consider perfect and with the glut of plans was demotivated to make my own. So far I still consider Simon's chicago less plan the best and I would still prefer swapping the MSRP thing for the Plasma deployment as the most obvious change.

Mostly the other non-simon plans seem to accept what I consider too low a percentage on plan requirements like most have ASAT with 93% completion. Thats why non have earned the approval vote from me.
 
I can understand and respect why some people are willing to take that 7% chance, really. I just personally have a strong aversion to doing that. Especially since I am in no small part responsible for the current situation regarding ASAT, since back in Q3 it was my plan that won, and my plan deliberately ignored ASAT in order to build the New York Zone Armor factory. Back then, I said "no problem, we'll just overspend on ASAT in Q4 to be really sure it completes now that the rest of our Plan goals are mostly out of the way." And I feel kind of obliged to put my money where my mouth is, just as I started my first planned Zone Armor factory in 2061Q3 because I had said that I would do so in 2061Q2 (my plan lost that quarter). I know @BoSPaladin , who I made the promise to, didn't believe me at the time, but I still felt an obligation to fit it in rather than doing what some of us wanted and waiting until 2061Q4 to do Zone Armor and try to fit more ASAT in during Q3.
 
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