Also, because I was originally approval voting several plans that don't actually do what I seem to be being name-voted to do, I'm dropping back to just my original plan - the only other one which comes close to that level of savings is Derpmind's Savings and Tech, and it is a bit broken by virtue of not having anything in the Bureaucracy section.

So,
[X]Plan Save Moneys, with more SCIENCE!

The ones I'm no longer approval voting, for those who would like to add them to their votes:
[] Plan Refugees and Research
[] Plan Security, Navy, Armor and Talons
[] Plan Savings and Tech
[] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago, with security blanket
 
Also, because I was originally approval voting several plans that don't actually do what I seem to be being name-voted to do, I'm dropping back to just my original plan - the only other one which comes close to that level of savings is Derpmind's Savings and Tech, and it is a bit broken by virtue of not having anything in the Bureaucracy section.
That was a proto-plan that I never finished, and @Nottheunmaker posted. If people are still interested, I could try fixing it up? I'm not really that interested in pushing my plan in particular, and would rather just not bother TBH, but I can straighten up the Bureaucracy section at least.
 
That was a proto-plan that I never finished, and @Nottheunmaker posted. If people are still interested, I could try fixing it up? I'm not really that interested in pushing my plan in particular, and would rather just not bother TBH, but I can straighten up the Bureaucracy section at least.
Yeah sorry, I ended up not having time to try fixing it up.

Anyway, Lightwhispers plan doesn't do Liquid Tiberium power, so no vote from me. And I do want Chicago, so-

[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago
 
I don't understand why we aren't doing the Medium Tactical Plasma Weapon Deployment. The Steel Talons are even offering 5 PS for it, so they obviously thing it is really important. And it only needs 80 progress.

If we really want to show Brig Gen Tali Jackson that we appreciate her, we should be delivering a plasma cannon equipped Titan, dressed up like a Christmas tree. Everybody knows that plasma weapons are a mecha-girl's best friend.
 
[X] Lightwhispers
[X] Derpmind

I am super down with Suzuka and Isolinear related projects. This I can get behind.

Originally, I was quite interested in banking. But the arguments have made sense to me how waiting a quarter or two when we are least bottlenecked is much better. I'm not down with banking for at least this plan.

One or two quarters delay for banking does not outweigh the disadvantage on regaining income and dice activation.
 
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Is the Banking Reform's benefits going to be so impactful that it's worth giving up so many dice worth of Treasury projects next turn, just to get the reforms out right now? Shooting ourselves in the foot to help the civilian economy seems a bit counter-productive.
We had this same conversation about timing Phase 2 of the tendril harvesters, only then the scale of the benefit to the Treasury was greater, and the stakes were "rest of government goes through next Plan with 7% lower budget until/unless we transfer funds manually later" instead of "go a year or so without key institution specifically identified by Treasury economists as important to civilian economy's recovery."

Back then we were on opposite sides of that conversation. I was all "we need the +100 RpT to be confident of funding our operations," and other people were all like "no, the rest of GDI needs that money too; it's our duty to get it for them quickly."

Now other people are saying "we need the 100 R to activate all our dice in Q1 like we want to," and I'm all like "no, the civilian sector needs that money too."

...

The economic census was quite specific about the problems impacting the civilian economy. To quote the 2061Q1 Results post:

1) Competition for highly qualified labor.
2) Lack of circulating investment capital.
3) Lack of sufficient access to capital goods for digitalization and automation of systems.
4) Lack of overall liquidity.

We don't have any good way of addressing (1) in the short term, nor is it primarily our job to do so; labor supply is an economic problem but not a Treasury problem. But the Department of Education and presumably the Department of Labor if we have one are about to get a huge budget increase (courtesy of us). And the refugee wave arguably addresses it without government intervention, because we suddenly have a hundred million or so people who are coming into the economy and have skills, but not the kind of easily trusted "we are sure you are not a Nod spy" status that makes it easy for them to get into the public sector.

(2) is a problem we address with grants. And, yes, we just increased our grants by 57%, so that'll help. Grants are investment capital. Note that investment capital is different from liquidity, more on that later.

(3) is a problem we've just addressed with the FMP promise. We may get a chance to do another shot of the same thing, but that's a matter for later. Personal Electric Vehicles, by far the single most likely new Heavy Industry project to be started-and-finished in its entirety during the coming Four Year Plan, is another thing that may specifically help there, because things like pickup trucks are very much "capital" for a business even if our accounting doesn't register them as Capital Goods.

(4) ... Is the the banking reforms' problem. Here's the issue. It's one thing for us to pour money into the co-ops. The problem is that right now, nearly everything is a state owned enterprise. To a large extent, we are effectively just issuing the co-ops IOUs, redeemable in stuff they buy from Treasury... but much of that is just the stuff they need for basic maintenance and raw materials. So it doesn't much matter if we're putting 35 or 55 RpT into the civilian sector; almost all that money just circulates straight back into the books of a state-owned enterprise.

To properly get the civilian economy rolling, we need liquidity: that is, more cash that is not directly in the state's hands. That is what the banking reforms are designed to address. That 100 R is the central reserve of a revitalized GDI banking system, which is going to be in a position to circulate several times the 100 R's nominal value in currency (again, fractional reserve banking).

We've already been spending 35 RpT on the grants for something like five years now- that's 700 R! The banks wouldn't even be on the radar if there weren't a real need for them that ongoing grant programs simply do not address. Which strongly suggests that the extra +20 RpT from the FMP grants, while likely to help, simply isn't going to be relevant on the scale of the problem any time soon, because if it was, the problem would already be solved by the grant money we've already spent.

All the other parts of the problem are things we've started working on, or things that aren't really our job to fix and will probably fix themselves quite nicely soon. The only missing piece of the puzzle now is the banks, and if we delay them a year, I'm pretty sure it's also going to delay any real restart of the civilian economy by... maybe not the full year, but by a significant fraction of that year.

@Ithillid , I know you may not want to comment on this, so if you don't answer, I understand, but... does this align with what the same economists we talked to for the economic census back in 2061Q1 are saying?

Oh, sure, they're not exactly the same. And having both will help more by synergy than each individually, I expect. But the grant expansions will significantly help until we have the reserves to do the banking and keep funding everything the Treasury can do.
As noted above, I don't think the grant expansion will help much, because we've been pouring money into that pipe for years and the civilian economy is still stagnant. We need a new machine. And we just did an economic census specifically to know what machine we need. And they told us... which is how/why we got the banking reforms. It's time to build the machine instead of prioritizing the number we can see (Treasury budget) over the narrative numbers (civilian sector) that we can't count as directly.

As for Agriculture and Aquaponics vs Vertical Farming, I think we need a balance of both, but food-based Consumer Goods are something that is notably lacking in availability, so Vertical Farming and the like are worth doing when we can. The question of "can we", is something where legitimate differences can be seen, I think.
Again, I'm personally happier if we table that discussion for now. I picked aquaponics because I do think there is a legitimate need for it, and it's cheap per die. I agree that more vertical farming will need to be done. The exact balance we take is something we can figure out later.
 
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Anyway, Lightwhispers plan doesn't do Liquid Tiberium power, so no vote from me. And I do want Chicago, so-
It was in an initial version, but then I decided that Visceroid Studies was more urgent, especially with CCF pretty much guaranteed to complete for an Energy boost... so, yeah. Sigh. I'll take another look.
I don't understand why we aren't doing the Medium Tactical Plasma Weapon Deployment. The Steel Talons are even offering 5 PS for it, so they obviously thing it is really important. And it only needs 80 progress.

If we really want to show Brig Gen Tali Jackson that we appreciate her, we should be delivering a plasma cannon equipped Titan, dressed up like a Christmas tree. Everybody knows that plasma weapons are a mecha-girl's best friend.
First, because Sparkle Shields are the top priority due to it giving Improved Fusion a boost.
Second, because we're actually trying to *spend* PS this turn, since we have 117.
Third, it seems like there is a bit more concern about immediate ST spending than there needs to - she's not leaving, she's making noise about looking at the prospect if we don't do more than the absolute minimum like we have been doing so far.
Fourth: we have a lot of shooty options, what would likely be more useful are either logistical or protective. Or so it seems to me.
We had this same conversation about timing Phase 2 of the tendril harvesters, only then the scale of the benefit to the Treasury was greater, and the stakes were "rest of government goes through next Plan with 7% lower budget until/unless we transfer funds manually later" instead of "go a year or so without key institution specifically identified by Treasury economists as important to civilian economy's recovery."

Back then we were on opposite sides of that conversation. I was all "we need the +100 RpT to be confident of funding our operations," and other people were all like "no, the rest of GDI needs that money too; it's our duty to get it for them quickly."

Now other people are saying "we need the 100 R to activate all our dice in Q1 like we want to," and I'm all like "no, the civilian sector needs that money too."

...

The economic census was quite specific about the problems impacting the civilian economy. To quote the 2061Q1 Results post:

1) Competition for highly qualified labor.
2) Lack of circulating investment capital.
3) Lack of sufficient access to capital goods for digitalization and automation of systems.
4) Lack of overall liquidity.

We don't have any good way of addressing (1) in the short term, nor is it primarily our job to do so; labor supply is an economic problem but not a Treasury problem. But the Department of Education and presumably the Department of Labor if we have one are about to get a huge budget increase (courtesy of us). And the refugee wave arguably addresses it without government intervention, because we suddenly have a hundred million or so people who are coming into the economy and have skills, but not the kind of easily trusted "we are sure you are not a Nod spy" status that makes it easy for them to get into the public sector.

(2) is a problem we address with grants. And, yes, we just increased our grants by 57%, so that'll help. Grants are investment capital. Note that investment capital is different from liquidity, more on that later.

(3) is a problem we've just addressed with the FMP promise. We may get a chance to do another shot of the same thing, but that's a matter for later. Personal Electric Vehicles, by far the single most likely new Heavy Industry project to be started-and-finished in its entirety during the coming Four Year Plan, is another thing that may specifically help there, because things like pickup trucks are very much "capital" for a business even if our accounting doesn't register them as Capital Goods.

(4) ... Is the the banking reforms' problem. Here's the issue. It's one thing for us to pour money into the co-ops. The problem is that right now, nearly everything is a state owned enterprise. To a large extent, we are effectively just issuing the co-ops IOUs, redeemable in stuff they buy from Treasury... but much of that is just the stuff they need for basic maintenance and raw materials. So it doesn't much matter if we're putting 35 or 55 RpT into the civilian sector; almost all that money just circulates straight back into the books of a state-owned enterprise.

To properly get the civilian economy rolling, we need liquidity: that is, more cash that is not directly in the state's hands. That is what the banking reforms are designed to address. That 100 R is the central reserve of a revitalized GDI banking system, which is going to be in a position to circulate several times the 100 R's nominal value in currency (again, fractional reserve banking).

We've already been spending 35 RpT on the grants for something like five years now- that's 700 R! The banks wouldn't even be on the radar if there weren't a real need for them that ongoing grant programs simply do not address. Which strongly suggests that the extra +20 RpT from the FMP grants, while likely to help, simply isn't going to be relevant on the scale of the problem any time soon, because if it was, the problem would already be solved by the grant money we've already spent.

All the other parts of the problem are things we've started working on, or things that aren't really our job to fix and will probably fix themselves quite nicely soon. The only missing piece of the puzzle now is the banks, and if we delay them a year, I'm pretty sure it's also going to delay any real restart of the civilian economy by... maybe not the full year, but by a significant fraction of that year.

@Ithillid , I know you may not want to comment on this, so if you don't answer, I understand, but... does this align with what the same economists we talked to for the economic census back in 2061Q1 are saying?

As noted above, I don't think the grant expansion will help much, because we've been pouring money into that pipe for years and the civilian economy is still stagnant. We need a new machine. And we just did an economic census specifically to know what machine we need. And they told us... which is how/why we got the banking reforms. It's time to build the machine instead of prioritizing the number we can see (Treasury budget) over the narrative numbers (civilian sector) that we can't count as directly.

Again, I'm personally happier if we table that discussion for now. I picked aquaponics because I do think there is a legitimate need for it, and it's cheap per die. I agree that more vertical farming will need to be done. The exact balance we take is something we can figure out later.
I don't think you are wrong, I just feel that the timing is wrong to do it right now. The long-term benefit seems unlikely to outweigh the short-term one (and the long-term benefits we derive from that short-term boost).
 
First, because Sparkle Shields are the top priority due to it giving Improved Fusion a boost.
Second, because we're actually trying to *spend* PS this turn, since we have 117.
Third, it seems like there is a bit more concern about immediate ST spending than there needs to - she's not leaving, she's making noise about looking at the prospect if we don't do more than the absolute minimum like we have been doing so far.
Fourth: we have a lot of shooty options, what would likely be more useful are either logistical or protective. Or so it seems to me.
First: My Plan does both. It wasn't hard.
Second: And I spend the extra PS.
Third: How is leaving a deployment project on the shelf not a continuation of doing the minimum? When are we going to afford 30R/die again?
Forth: I'm going to trust the military when they say they want more shooty options. I feel like they might know what they are talking about.
 
Also to note is that outside of the 5 so far unassigned services dice lightwhisper's Q1 plan is spending the exact same amount of money (625) as Simon's plan, Simon is just spending more on individual projects and so activates less dice.
I'm spending more on a very short list of individual projects. There may, may, be something in Heavy Industry or Military that's worth spending 20 R on a die. If we decide in the future that it's better to spend those same 20 R on two dice doing a different project, we can, because this is a draft, not some kind of locked-in thing.

For instance, is it better to spend 20 R on two Light Industry dice to build some kind of civilian consumer good? Better to spend 20 R on two Agriculture dice for caffeinated kudzu, or on one Orbital die to finish the station bay? Or 20 R on one Military die to research MRASP for the Steel Talons? I don't know. I'm not claiming to know. I tentatively budgeted for a handful of 20 R/die dice, even though we could theoretically activate more total dice otherwise.

Remember that both my plan and Lightwhispers are NOT finalized; they are rough approximations to give a sense of scale. If we have 625 R to throw around either way, we have 625 R to throw around either way. How we throw it around, precisely, is a matter for future discussion.

It's a 720R + 100 reserve plan, but yeah. Spending on less-costly projects is part of what I see as worthwhile - because they are worth doing. But my plan also has 95R more than Simon's for Services, other things that may come up, and probably doing a few slightly more costly projects in other areas (like probably changing the GD-3 to the Island development). And, of course, saves 100R for Q2, to ensure we can keep activating everything while hitting glaciers like they owe us money. (Because they do.)
Again, a big part (not all, but most) of why your plan can do this is because you're not trying to work on Chicago in 2061Q4 (and realistically, it will not be completed until late 2062 at the earliest), and not doing the banking reforms (which, likewise, will have to wait at least a year).

This does, yes, let us spend more money activating dice in 2062Q1 to build subways and isolinear computing peripherals and whatnot.

But it's not just a straightforward case of one plan being more efficient than another; we're going to pay a price.

Speaking of which, Simon why the hell wouldn't we front load the cheapest possible projects in Q1?
Because I'm a fucking idiot, of course.

Please don't put "the hells" into questions like that. It's a great way to anger people by implying that they're just too stupid to have thought of whatever it is you just noticed in thirty seconds' thought.

...

Now, more seriously, as noted above, the reason is that I am tentatively considering maybe possibly spending a few 20 R/die projects.

In Orbital we have almost nothing important to do but 20 R/die projects, so doing only the cheapest possible projects would mean sitting around doing almost nothing in the category, which in turn would probably anger Starbound because they literally just spent considerable political capital making sure we'd have 100 RpT worth of moon mining income on hand in 2062Q1 specifically so we wouldn't have to do that.

In Military, there are a LOT of 20 R/die projects. For instance... (1) ongoing Zone Armor factory construction is going to be important and we'll want to resume as soon as possible. Depending on which plan wins, we may have a third or fourth factory partially completed and just sitting there waiting for one more die, too. And (2) there's the matter of that Shark-class frigate yard; if we finish it by Q2 or Q3 that's 20 more warships ready in time for Karachi. And (3) there's the question of whether we want to spend a die on the Steel Talons, because their cheapest projects they have are 20 R/die.

In Heavy Industry, we might hypothetically have any of a number of unfinished projects we might very much want to complete in a timely manner.

So there are several places where we might, MIGHT, maybe possibly decide it's worth spending 20 R on a single die when we could in theory spend 10 R apiece on two dice doing something else. Or we might not. This is a draft, notional plan, and I assure you that no matter what happens, it will undergo significant changes between now and the 2062Q1 turn post.

I don't understand why we aren't doing the Medium Tactical Plasma Weapon Deployment. The Steel Talons are even offering 5 PS for it, so they obviously thing it is really important. And it only needs 80 progress.
Because one die is not necessarily enough to finish it and if you've been listening to the conversation you'll see that the odds of getting a second 30 R/die die on the project in 2062Q1 is ahahano. We're already funding a quite substantial Talons project this turn, and in some variants (my Attempting To Have Banks and Walls of Guns variant) we spend a third die on a different Talons project. We'll get to the plasma cannons, but we're at least funding them and it's on something very likely to have valuable civilian spinoffs.

If we really want to show Brig Gen Tali Jackson that we appreciate her, we should be delivering a plasma cannon equipped Titan, dressed up like a Christmas tree. Everybody knows that plasma weapons are a mecha-girl's best friend.
Her new Titan will instead be equipped with reinforced shield generators. She may be a little disappointed, but given that her last Titan got kneecapped by antitank missiles and would probably have been even worse off with a plasma cannon that couldn't fire beehive rounds in place of a railgun that could, I think she'll understand.

I am super down with Suzuka and Isolinear related projects. This I can get behind.

Originally, I was quite interested in banking. But the arguments have made sense to me how waiting a quarter or two when we are least bottlenecked is much better. I'm not down with banking for at least this plan.
it won't just be a quarter or two, it'll be a year, because shaking loose 100 R worth of surplus to sign away on a banking reform in 2062Q2 or Q3 is going to be a very hard sell. If we're not willing to do it now because it'll force us to skip out on future projects we want, you may be sure we won't do it until we have plenty of money to do everything we pressingly want all at once.

And that won't happen for at least 3-4 turns, because if we're relying on heavy spending of reserve money in 2062Q1-Q2, then as that reserve dries up, our available budget for the subsequent quarters doesn't expand as fast as we'd hoped.

One or two quarters delay for banking does not outweigh the disadvantage on regaining income and dice activation.
I think there's a bias in favor of things that make the numbers we can see go up (number of Treasury projects completed) over the numbers we can't see (overall health of civilian economy).

I think that's making a mistake.

I don't think you are wrong, I just feel that the timing is wrong to do it right now. The long-term benefit seems unlikely to outweigh the short-term one (and the long-term benefits we derive from that short-term boost).
The short-term benefit is that we complete a few more subways, apartments, civilian widget factories, railgun cannonball factories, and so on.

"Activate all our dice" isn't magic. We've activated all our dice for the great majority of turns so far in the game, and it hasn't restored the civilian economy. This option has been around ever since the economic census, because the economic census told us, in so many words, that we have a liquidity crisis. Failing to make a move to solve that crisis, so that we'll have an extra 100 R sitting around to activate dice with in early 2062, doesn't strike me as a good move.
 
Because one die is not necessarily enough to finish it and if you've been listening to the conversation you'll see that the odds of getting a second 30 R/die die on the project in 2062Q1 is ahahano.
I put an AA dice on it too, so the suggestion that I'm even thinking about a second die needed in 2062Q1 is ahahano.
Her new Titan will instead be equipped with reinforced shield generators. She may be a little disappointed, but given that her last Titan got kneecapped by antitank missiles and would probably have been even worse off with a plasma cannon that couldn't fire beehive rounds in place of a railgun that could, I think she'll understand.
Porque no los dos?
We do have enough dice available.
 
I put an AA dice on it too, so the suggestion that I'm even thinking about a second die needed in 2062Q1 is ahahano.
I'm already using the AA die for something else. The obvious way to get that freed up is to take it off ASAT, and in fairness you can do that. Personally I consider the surety of actually finishing the ASAT plan goal to be very important, because (as I've mentioned) I think it's important that Treasury have a reputation for trying really hard to fulfill promises, not just "enough that it should have worked but we got a little unlucky."

Again, the first plan above is still the one I'm primarily voting for, and the 2nd is... a plan. But to try and do some proper co-operative Plan Consolidation, may I present the totally-not-rushed Plan Chicago, But Cheap! I made an effort to mostly stick to similar choices as Simon's plan, while saving enough for 300R in Reserve for Q1. @Simon_Jester This is pretty much a variant of your plan, I think? But I cut 170R. Somehow. Not really sure exactly how I got that extra 70R right now. May I have your thoughts, please?
... Well.

-[] Heavy Industry 4/4 +1 free dice 75R
--[] Advanced Alloys Development 0/120 1 die 15R 30%
--[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 9) 236/300 1 die 20R 81%
--[] Suzuka Prototype Hover Chassis Factory 0/175 2 dice 40R 50%
--[] Chicago Planned City Phase 4 1 die (see above)
You moved a Free die off Advanced Alloys and onto something else. We'll see what.

--[] Vertical Farming Projects (Stage 2) 65/240 2 dice 30R 40%
You took a Free die off Agriculture, cutting our chance of getting the vertical farms phase here from 89% to 40%. That's... significant for those of us concerned with improving civilian food quality, but replacing that with a security review did save 15 R.

-[] Orbital 6/6 +1 free dice 130R
--[] Station Bay 0/400 4 dice 80R 9%
--[] Orbital Cleanup (Stage 11) 32/85 1 die 10R 89% (Stage 12 4%)
--[] Leopard II Factory 0/350 2 dice 40R (2/4.5 median)
Ah. The Heavy Industry die effectively got moved to orbital cleanup. Saves 5 R.

-[] Military 8/8 +2 free 190R
--[] ASAT Defense System (Phase 4) 36/220 3 dice 60R 93%
--[] OSRCT Station (Phase 4) 319/395 2 dice 40R 100%
--[] Ground Forces Zone Armor (London) 121/180 2 dice 40R 100%
--[] Island Class Assault Ships 0/40 1 die 20R 100%
--[] Sparkle Shield Module 0/120 1 die 30R 27%
--[] Security Review 1 die
Aaaand you cut the military budget by 50 R. You turned a Sparkle Shields die I had budgeted for the Talons into a security review, which means we probably won't finish Sparkle Shields under this plan but does save 30 R. And you took out the AA die and reshuffled, effectively accepting a 7% chance of not hitting the ASAT plan target to save 20 R more.

I disagree with your changes to Vertical Farming and Sparkle Shields, and of course to the lack of banking reforms which I consider critical for the civilian economy recovery we're trying to manage.

But yeah, that's how you did it. Cut ASAT funding, Talons funding, luxury food funding, and banking reforms.
 
I think there's a bias in favor of things that make the numbers we can see go up (number of Treasury projects completed) over the numbers we can't see (overall health of civilian economy).

I think that's making a mistake.

I disagree that this is a mistake in this particular case do to us having prior voted to turn over 5 cap goods and 20 RpT just the turn before, which feel is sufficient as a stopgap for the next several quarters. And your argument of "bias in favor of things that make the numbers we can see go up" has insufficient data points for or against.
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Have Banks In Chicago

Offensive naval development is non-negotiable. We are going to lose the option soon if the development project (both projects)? is not funded.
 
I disagree that this is a mistake in this particular case do to us having prior voted to turn over 5 cap goods and 20 RpT just the turn before, which feel is sufficient as a stopgap for the next several quarters. And your argument of "bias in favor of things that make the numbers we can see go up" has insufficient data points for or against.
We were narratively told we have a liquidity crisis when we did an economic census.

Basic arithmetic tells us that our grants have added up to somewhere between 500 and 1000 R (I forget when we started the grants).

If the grants haven't already solved the liquidity crisis, then expanding them, even increasing them from 35 RpT to 55 RpT as we did, won't solve them in any reasonable amount of time.

We were, by the way, also narratively told why the grants don't address the liquidity crisis. It's because while the grants do provide starting capital for various co-ops, the bulk of the money just flows right back to the state-owned enterprises to buy the things the co-ops need. The cash doesn't stay in the civilian sector to circulate, so said civilian sector remains largely stagnant- metaphorically, it's being supported from outside by an "iron lung," not by its own respiratory processes.

Meanwhile, banking does address the liquidity problem, because it allows for large scale fractional reserve banking to inject very large amounts of currency into the economy. Money that isn't specifically flowing back and forth to state-owned enterprises that make Stuff directly out of tiberium.

...

But because of the nature of the indicators that are visible to us (internal Treasury stuff) and invisible to us (civilian economy stuff), all the arguments for how the banking boosts the civilian economy are narrative. From a Treasury number perspective, we get "well, +20 RpT times five is 100, so five turns of the FMP grant promises is as good as doing the banking reforms!"

It's not. It's not remotely the same, and it's not a stopgap. It's good, it's important, but without the banking reforms, the civilian sector will continue to have problems only slightly less bad than they would be without the extra grant money. Because the grants are fundamentally pouring money into an open loop- that money doesn't stay in the civilian sector. The banks can help fix that, and that's the one remaining major component of the "restart the civilian economy" report we got from the economic census in 2061Q1. It's the only part left that we haven't done something about, except the labor issues we can't do anything about. It's not something we should be putting off.

But the reasons to do it now are narrative, while the reasons to put it off are numbers that are easily counted up on the budget for Treasury's internal operations.
 
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I've removed the previous two plan posts. They weren't really well thought out, and I just threw them together in a hurry. Sorry for the bother.

@Simon At some point we have to stop giving away money and actually save some for ourselves, too. Two turns ago, I chose doing the Harvesting Tendrils to give more money to the rest of GDI's government, who we know sometimes do Treasury-scale projects even if we don't often see them. The Banking Reforms helps the civilian economy, which... doesn't do that. Likely the benefits of the Banking Reforms is a small amount of increased +RpT from taxes, and nothing much else. (At least, not without waiting years more.) Maybe you disagree, and we should have done Banking Reforms a couple turns ago and saved the Harvesting Tendrils for next plan. But doing both this year clearly and obviously hurts our ability to do Treasury projects, of which even the cheap ones have huge impacts on the entire population of GDI, civilian economy included. I don't see why you'd value another +5 RpT from taxes over having one or two turns where we're able to activate all our dice next year.
 
I was reading the vote options and the turn itself, and while it says glacier mines, I did not see super glacier mines.
did I missread it? or was it on a different page?
 
-Is PS FIFO? (I.e. if we spend 20 ps this turn, but also gain enough to put us back over 100 does it decay prior to reallocation)
PS is First in First Out. So if you spend 20 PS this turn, and then go over 100 again, It will not decay until after Reallocation.

-(in thread) are interdeparmental favors/political promises exclusionary with reallocation or inclusionary (double-dipping)
Interdepartmental Favors/Political Promises are inclusionary. You can double or even triple dip on a single action if there are multiple parties that want it.

- what quality of Housing does Chicago provide?
Chicago provides low quality housing at least for now. Edit: Basically, the housing itself is perfectly fine. Is apartment blocks of decent standard quality. The issue is that they are built in and around giant tiberium industrial plants.
 
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@Simon At some point we have to stop giving away money and actually save some for ourselves, too. Two turns ago, I chose doing the Harvesting Tendrils to give more money to the rest of GDI's government, who we know sometimes do Treasury-scale projects even if we don't often see them. The Banking Reforms helps the civilian economy, which... doesn't do that. Likely the benefits of the Banking Reforms is a small amount of increased +RpT from taxes, and nothing much else. (At least, not without waiting years more.)
The reason the civilian economy doesn't do things that are relevant on the Treasury scale (well, apart from raising our Consumer Goods metric by +3 to +5 per turn, which would take us an investment of several dice per turn to match)...

...Is because they're stagnant, and at this point the main remaining reason they're stagnant is the lack of banks. This isn't an exotic bells-and-whistles blue-sky project. This is a basic, practical component of getting the civilian economy on its feet, we're out of time in which to do it before we're forced to accept a major delay, and I think it's time to do it. If it means we finish a few less projects in early 2062, that's okay to me. I'm hoping to avoid that by spinning off line items and taking the 25% GDP option or even the 30% option, personally.

Maybe you disagree, and we should have done Banking Reforms a couple turns ago and saved the Harvesting Tendrils for next plan. But doing both this year clearly and obviously hurts our ability to do Treasury projects, of which even the cheap ones have huge impacts on the entire population of GDI, civilian economy included.
We're well past the point where most single small Treasury projects (as opposed to the big expensive megaprojects that cost 100 R to do) is going to have that kind of radical effect on GDI's population. This isn't the old days, when we could restart an entire major industry for 150 Progress at 10 R/die.

Meanwhile, the banking reforms are a project that will have a radical effect on GDI's population. They're a big deal. Because they fundamentally alter how GDI's citizens engage with their currency and with the civilian economy. This is an important project, not a luxury item.

I don't see why you'd value another +5 RpT from taxes over having one or two turns where we're able to activate all our dice next year.
I reject this mode of analysis.

The narrative didn't tell us "the rest of the government needs that +75 RpT of government budget during reallocation to function," and basic arithmetic could tell us this wouldn't be a huge difference-maker for them. Some difference. Not a lot, not on net, not split among all the various departments.

But we decided that they needed it.

The narrative IS telling us that the stagnation of the civilian economy is a problem, that we're going to be under increasing political pressure to get the job done, and that the banking reforms are a critical component of fixing the stagnation and getting the civilian economy to grow rapidly again.

So I decided that they need it.

I was reading the vote options and the turn itself, and while it says glacier mines, I did not see super glacier mines.
did I missread it? or was it on a different page?
'Super glacier mines' refers to a project that is gated behind the Red Zone Border Offensive project. To access it, we must first complete at least one stage/phase of RZBO, which we have not done yet.

Basically, a normal glacier mine's ability to haul tiberium out of the Red Zones is limited by the fact that GDI was setting them up in places where it had no land connection to the Red Zones. Everything had to pass through a specially constructed port or be airlifted to and from the mine site. That's why they mostly involve a giant -5 Logistics penalty per mine, except a handful we built clustered around the big new refinery complexes at Medina-Jeddah, which cost -2 or -3 each.

A "super" glacier mine is set up in a location where GDI's territory has a land connection to a Red Zone and is already eating into the Red Zone. Here, we can truck or train our mining equipment right up to the site and likewise carry back the mined tiberium very efficiently. We don't know the parameters of the project in terms of Progress, cost per die, or expected rate of return in RpT... but we're hoping they'll be pretty darn good.
 
-Is PS FIFO? (I.e. if we spend 20 ps this turn, but also gain enough to put us back over 100 does it decay prior to reallocation)
PS is First in First Out. So if you spend 20 PS this turn, and then go over 100 again, It will not decay until after Reallocation.

-(in thread) are interdeparmental favors/political promises exclusionary with reallocation or inclusionary (double-dipping)
Interdepartmental Favors/Political Promises are inclusionary. You can double or even triple dip on a single action if there are multiple parties that want it.

- what quality of Housing does Chicago provide?
Chicago provides low quality housing at least for now.
If you have time tonight/today, we could really use any available clarification on the role of the banking reforms, which is central to a lot of discussion that's been going on in the past few pages.

Basically, a lot of people are switching rapidly to a plan that doesn't do the banking reforms this turn, figuring that it's worth it if we can spend those 100 R on activating more dice in 2062Q1-Q2. Getting a sense for how important the banking reforms are to the overall 'restart civilian economy' agenda, especially in light of the recent grant increases we gave out because of the promise to the FMP, would really help.

How important do our economists on payroll think the banking reforms are for that issue, in light of the grant increases?
 
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