I'm definitely for the Advanced Materials Bay. Honestly I'm not excited about the Station Bay, but it's hard to argue the numbers there. It's just practical. I'm inclined towards the Gravitic shipyard after that, but not by much. I don't really like either yard, but really I just don't care for most of the other Bays at all.

It'll be a fight much, much later. But it's not one I'll have much to say about.
 
The long-term benefit of Advanced Materials is +Capital Goods. Thing is, we have Isolinear tech, which we've been told will scale even higher than Nuuk. Not to say there aren't secondary benefits, but it's mainly for those Cap Goods. And I don't think we're going to lack for those over the next, like, decade or so.
 
The long-term benefit of Advanced Materials is +Capital Goods. Thing is, we have Isolinear tech, which we've been told will scale even higher than Nuuk. Not to say there aren't secondary benefits, but it's mainly for those Cap Goods. And I don't think we're going to lack for those over the next, like, decade or so.

The narrative benefit of having experimental materials is a long term plus to gaining new tech.
 
Advanced Materials bay + Gravitics Shipyard is probably the best way to get more advanced Grav engines.

Personally I'd get the AM bay + both shipyards but that seems unpopular here
 
I think we can at least broadly agree that our first two bays are going to be the station bay as #1 and then prooooobably the Advanced Materials bay as #2. The shipyard that goes in slot #3 is when the knives come out but that's an argument to be had much later, the station bay as #1 is a no-brainer and SV loves a tech option so I'd put really good odds on Advanced Materials filling the second slot, because no matter what goes in slot #3 we're going to want the cool tech tree and any narrative bonuses associated with the AM bay. There's an outside chance we end up with the station bay and both shipyards instead of AM and one shipyard but I doubt it right now.
I'm honestly feeling more like doing both shipyards and the station bay. Like, the purpose of Enterprise isn't to be a bleeding-edge research station, it's an industrial hub. The point is to churn out great quantities of all types of spacecraft and space stations.

EDIT:

I think the best course of action might be that when we finish Enterprise Phase 5, we actually have a binding thread vote on "so, which three bays do you want."

If we want to change our minds after that, but before the bays are actually built, changing one of the three bay options ends up costing us a Bureaucracy action, so it has to be something the thread decides to do for a clear reason.

Because otherwise, we're going to have multiple turns where the giant shitfit argument over which bay to use overshadows everything else that's going on that turn, which is much worse than just having the discussion out once in a single burst.

@Ithillid , what do you think of that?
 
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-[ ] Military Bay
Converting the open slot to military production offers significant developmental potential due to the ability to do large amounts of manufacturing without the stresses of gravity interfering with the process. While not everything will be aided by such a construction, this will make the OSRCT significantly less dependent on massed fusion launches from ground support facilities.
(Progress 0/450: 20 resources per die)

Cheaper OSRCT and less ground support required for the Space Force.

-[ ] Advanced Materials Bay
Across a wide selection of fields within materials science, the ability to make objects in zero gravity has significant implications, ranging from optics and large scale crystals, to alloys and composites. While small scale production as done in such a bay will be of limited overall use, it is likely to heavily inform future projects.
(Progress 0/400: 20 resources per die) (+8 Capital Goods)

There are two benefits here. Firstly the Capital Goods production, which is the best Capital Goods per die investment aside from Nuuk. Second is the 'heavily inform future projects' bit which implies an improved Advanced Materials Factory Station in the future.

-[ ] Satellite Bay
Most satellites are very low density constructions, with much of their bulk composed of materials such as foamed aluminum or layers of foil. By specializing the Enterprise towards building these units, there are significant cost savings due to being able to haul up materials by the ton, rather than having to figure out how to fit them into a launch. Additionally the satellites themselves will be significantly more refined, as they do not need to undergo the difficulties of a chemical or fusion launch.
(Progress 0/400: 20 resources per die) (Discounts Satellites by 20 points)

Satellite cost reductions. The exact scale of how valuable this is depends on the Orbital Power option. We know it effects the Military Support Sats and I believe ASAT phase 5, Tactical Ions, and the Orbital Nuclear Caches.

-[ ] Station Bay
The largest limitations on the size of a station are the dimensions of the Leopards and Unions doing the construction. For example, there is significant use of ten meter struts on both stations, rather than longer ones that can take greater loads per kilogram. This in turn means that there are thousands upon thousands of joins, adding hundreds of tons of material that do not need to be there. Building a dedicated bay for building large scale station components will both increase the strength of the stations, and substantially decrease their costs.
(Progress 0/400: 20 resources per die) (-1 Capital Goods) (Discounts stations by 10 points)

Station Discount. There is general agreement that this is a key part for next Plan.

-[ ] Gravitic Shipyard
With the exception of GDIS Pathfinder, GDI cannot effectively reach beyond the moon in a reasonable amount of time. While the throughput of a fusion craft is higher within that boundary, attempts to exploit Martian and belt resources, let alone materials beyond the belt, require the construction and maintenance of dozens of gravitic drive ships capable of long range transits. While still too limited in acceleration to move people and materials off earth, the same problem certainly does not apply to many of the other areas of interest in the solar system.
(Progress 0/450: 30 resources per die) (-2 STU, -1 Capital Goods)

This is the yard that will unlock the rest of the Solar System. Asteroid mining, Ceres, Mars, Venus, etc.

-[ ] Fusion Shipyard
Currently, all GDI fusion craft are designed with the ability to climb out of the Earth's gravity well as a core function. However, with the moon and beyond as goals of GDI's space program, the need for substantial numbers of heavy transit vessels is critical. Large fusion tenders, either in short legged manned, or long legged unmanned designs can serve to fill key niches as part of a complex of transport solutions across the solar system.
(Progress 0/500: 20 resources per die)

This is the yard that enables tying in all of those sites we unlock with the Gravitic Shipyard into our Logistics. It allows us to transport bulk goods across the Solar system. While the Gravitic Shipyard allows us to actually respond rapidly to a situation in one of those locations.

As far as I am aware, we will still have the option of building stations that correspond to these bays once the four jewels are complete. Though I'm unsure on the details on how that will work.

I think we can agree that the Military Bay isn't a priority when compared to the other options. If we need a dedicated facility to supply ORCST we should build one, but we need basic infrastructure first. Also I believe we can agree that the Station Bay is a priority compared to the others as with it reducing the costs, we will save more in the future. Of the remaining four, the Satellite Bay at present is a lower priority, that may change with Orbital Power Stations, but it will be difficult for it to be a higher priority then Advanced Materials or the Shipyards. I'm personally of the opinion that we want both Shipyards over the Advanced Materials. If we need a zero-g materials lab, we should build a facility dedicated to that task in my opinion. If I had to pick between the yards though, I'd pick the Gavitic one, as that is what will allow us to quickly respond to a situation. From the description, the Fusion Yard is all about providing Fusion ships whose purpose is to function as an interplanetary logistics system.
 
As far as I am aware, we will still have the option of building stations that correspond to these bays once the four jewels are complete. Though I'm unsure on the details on how that will work.

I think we can agree that the Military Bay isn't a priority when compared to the other options. If we need a dedicated facility to supply ORCST we should build one, but we need basic infrastructure first. Also I believe we can agree that the Station Bay is a priority compared to the others as with it reducing the costs, we will save more in the future. Of the remaining four, the Satellite Bay at present is a lower priority, that may change with Orbital Power Stations, but it will be difficult for it to be a higher priority then Advanced Materials or the Shipyards. I'm personally of the opinion that we want both Shipyards over the Advanced Materials. If we need a zero-g materials lab, we should build a facility dedicated to that task in my opinion. If I had to pick between the yards though, I'd pick the Gavitic one, as that is what will allow us to quickly respond to a situation. From the description, the Fusion Yard is all about providing Fusion ships whose purpose is to function as an interplanetary logistics system.

We know we have an Asteroid Mining Station called Vulcan in waiting for enough infrastructure to build it. If we do Station Bay, Gravitic Shipyard and Fusion Shipyard we should be able to build it and then do the other three bays on it. Am I getting this right @Ithillid?
 
We know we have an Asteroid Mining Station called Vulcan in waiting for enough infrastructure to build it. If we do Station Bay, Gravitic Shipyard and Fusion Shipyard we should be able to build it and then do the other three bays on it. Am I getting this right @Ithillid?
Vulcan does not have bays in the same way that Enterprise does, because it is a fair bit more specialized, but yes, Vulcan would be moved up to Stage II and unlocked by that combination of platforms.

Basically, Vulcan is a pure asteroid mining station. It is a bunch of processors and refineries, with bolted on living quarters and docking arrangements. It does not do general industrial fabrication, or, for that matter most things more complicated than could come out of a factory in 1914.

Edit: Basically, the way to get all six is to speed run Shala and Columbia, and then the dedicated hab stations that follow them. Not trying to go Enterprise straight to more industry.
 
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Yeah.

We really do need to do Shala and Columbia immediately after whatever basic infrastructure we construct for the express purpose of building Shala and Columbia.

Our space industrial base is about as developed as it reasonably can be without us successfully solving the problem of keeping large populations of specialists up in space full-time in comfortable and safe accommodations. We've built a whole lot of space infrastructure that is more or less equivalent to remote oil drilling rigs and mining outposts, but no cities in space, and you can only do so much factory construction with no cities.

The original plan was for you to do one bay, and then do Enterprise V and then the other two bays. But since it looks like you are going to go EntV and then any bays, I am probably going to do that as part of Reallocation.
Well, we kind of got stuck with the way the plan commitments work; we're incentivized, as I understand it, to finish the stations, rather than just make progress on them, because we got extra points for promising to do specific stations, not for just a bulk commitment of "do X thousand points no matter what they are."

If you want people to complete a bay before moving on to phase five of the station, then you probably want there to be incentives to do that, or at least no disincentives to discourage that.

With that said, I strongly, strongly recommend making the station bay vote its own minivote. That way, we can avoid having a knock-down drag-out debate on this one issue that overshadows the other very important choices we need to make during reallocation. After all, the point of the exercise here is to take a decision that would otherwise suck all the oxygen out of the room during another important decision-making process, and separate it out to where it can be given the attention it deserves.

The minivote would also give you an opportunity to make a separate, official and canonical post explaining everything we should, in-character, know about the different bay choices and what they would enable us to do. As it stands, a fair amount of that information is scattered or Discord-only, and formalizing it before we actually go through with the bay selection sounds like a good move.

...

This is all reminding me of a situation we have over in Xantalos' Lizardman Quest, where the players will eventually have to decide what to do with the sub-sapient hive-minded species that lives on the planet they've been transported to, and where decisions about what to do on that front were becoming very distracting because we couldn't really take ANY of the options until another ongoing crisis had been resolved. Xantalos finally decreed that the whole issue of "so which choice will we take" was being taken entirely off the table so that plan votes could focus on the crisis, and that the issue would be strictly academic until the crisis was over, at which point we'd have a separate binding vote on the matter.

I think that was a good choice.
 
Edit: Basically, the way to get all six is to speed run Shala and Columbia, and then the dedicated hab stations that follow them. Not trying to go Enterprise straight to more industry.

Advanced Materials Bay it is for me then. If we have to build so many stations first I want the bay that is basically the materials equivalent of our plant genetic engineering program in Agriculture.
 
[X] Plan Canned Beans + Scrin Research

So I'll leave that here and for my part on the Ent bays discussion. I definitely want both the fusion and gravitic shipyards as those will synergise nicely, not just when we're getting people off Earth but after as well. Not to mention that it'll give us an easier time scraping some eezo from Mars and looting whatever the (not)Scrin left behind in the outer system.

The only bay I'm not too fussed on is the third bay where I'd happily take the station, advanced materials or military bay options wince each one has its upsides and its downsides.
 
With that said, I strongly, strongly recommend making the station bay vote its own minivote. That way, we can avoid having a knock-down drag-out debate on this one issue that overshadows the other very important choices we need to make during reallocation. After all, the point of the exercise here is to take a decision that would otherwise suck all the oxygen out of the room during another important decision-making process, and separate it out to where it can be given the attention it deserves.
I agree with Simon here. It'll avoid the problem of '10 identical plans with different bay combos'
 
We really do need to do Shala and Columbia immediately after whatever basic infrastructure we construct for the express purpose of building Shala and Columbia.
I think everyone is in agreement more or less on this.

Finish Enterprise, build station bay and leo2s, build Shala and Columbia to level 3, build each to 4 one at a time, build to 5 one at a time, the rest of the bays.

Or at least that makes sense to me.
 
Well, I'm not feeling locked into the Station Bay.
Depending on what our next Plan Goals are, we might not want that one.
Or we might be under time pressure to get Shala/Columbia done earlier, in which case a 400 progress project first isn't feasible.

Total saved per station = 15 + 30 + 60 + 120 + 240 = 465 Progress
Incidentally, why is this doubling for every step? The discounts being applied four times to Phase 3 sounds wrong.
Shouldn't it be: Total saved per station = 15 + 30 + 45 + 60 + 75 = 225 Progress
 
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Would there be any benefits to building the Station Bay and Satellite Bay together? It would make sense to me, since they're both about building machines to put into orbit. In orbit. A station is certainly a great deal larger, but they probably need smaller components that the bay could manufacture, or just support satellites that could aid in construction.

I ask because I ultimately agree that Fusion yards and Gravitic yards synergize, but I don't want either over the Advanced Materials Bay, and everyone agrees the Station Bay should be first. So I'm trying to think of, first, a way to boost station construction further. Then I want to figure out what station would likely support shipyards. My guess would be Comubia, but that's a guess and nothing more.

On a related note, are Fusion and Gravity ships always going to be separate things? I don't think I fully appreciate the difference, but surely there's benefits to a ship running both, or to just pick one and focus on it. Trying to build both seems like putting in twice the effort for a lesser benefit. Or do we need to develop both more because the technology just isn't there yet?
 
On a related note, are Fusion and Gravity ships always going to be separate things? I don't think I fully appreciate the difference, but surely there's benefits to a ship running both, or to just pick one and focus on it. Trying to build both seems like putting in twice the effort for a lesser benefit. Or do we need to develop both more because the technology just isn't there yet?

Fusion ships are Human technology and Gravity ships are not-Scrin tech. We don't have a way to bridge the engineering between the two yet. As both technologies develop we will reach a point of fusion where we only have to build one type of ship, but we are not there yet.
 
Incidentally, why is this doubling for every step? The discounts being applied four times to Phase 3 sounds wrong.
Shouldn't it be: Total saved per station = 15 + 30 + 45 + 60 + 75 = 225 Progress

I was under the impression that was how it worked, with the progress cost reduction doubling for each phase. This is supported with how the progress requirement for each phase doubles. @Ithillid could you clarify this? How exactly does the station progress discount from the Station Bay and the Leopard II Factory work?
 
Would there be any benefits to building the Station Bay and Satellite Bay together? It would make sense to me, since they're both about building machines to put into orbit. In orbit. A station is certainly a great deal larger, but they probably need smaller components that the bay could manufacture, or just support satellites that could aid in construction.
Maybe we'd be able to build new stations earlier/cheaper? Maybe at different Lagrange points?

I was under the impression that was how it worked, with the progress cost reduction doubling for each phase.
I thought the discount applied separately to each Phase. So 0->1 has the discount applied once. But 0->2 has the discount applied twice. But then 0->3 only applies the discount thrice.

Edit! Actually that is still less than the numbers I put before. I am feeling confused as well.
 
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Would there be any benefits to building the Station Bay and Satellite Bay together? It would make sense to me, since they're both about building machines to put into orbit. In orbit. A station is certainly a great deal larger, but they probably need smaller components that the bay could manufacture, or just support satellites that could aid in construction
There are lots of synergies we can get from different combos and this would almost certainly be one of them. That being said I personally would prefer shipyards, especially since without the g-drive shipyard we're likely to have to build more than the 1 ship we have with dice
 
Another drawback of station and satellite bays - early or lately we will finish building orbital infrastructure. After that those bays will probably become useless.

That point is probably way too far in the future, but Shipyards will be useful for way longer than even that.
 
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Meh. There's probably more satellites and stations we can build.

I imagine eventually we can build all of the bays and get the synergies.

It just might take a while and which we build first will probably influence how well we do at certain space stuff till we expand more.
 
It just might take a while and which we build first will probably influence how well we do at certain space stuff till we expand more.
Yeah, I think that this might be how we should be approaching our Bay options.
Yes, the Station Bay helps with an immediate obvious need. But it also locks in a Bay slot, and therefore a synergy.
If the synergies are actually a big deal, then we should think more about what we want to achieve in a slightly longer timeframe than the couple of years it will take to build the remaining stations.
 
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