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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Lightwhispers said:
I don't feel that "this is something that might be an issue in a couple turns" is a particularly good reason to mass-ping people.

It may well be an issue, and so we should make sure not to wait to the last minute on it, but we have a couple more turns before it would likely affect meeting our plan goals.
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Yes which is why I asked OP directly in that post to tell us how many turns we can wait. Also I mass-pinged planmakers only, not any of the people who are here to only vote on plans.
 
Dmol8 said:
Caloric Reclamation is really important for space development, especially early one, because on Earth we can rely on the cycles of matter to keep things going even on a planet infested with Tiberium, but in space we have to build up mater cycles as part of our infrastructure in order to be able to live there and Caloric Reclamation and technologies derived from it will give us more slack and more flexibility in our synthetic cycles.
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Sure but we already have the technology. If they want to build some in the new stations and mines we build then they can. Us building some on earth doesn't particularly impact that.

Also, it's likely to taste like shit for a long time yet, I don't see us building them changing this whatsoever.

Essentially, I'm pro building a bunch of these for storage where they'll hopefully never get used (especially since the political cost is likely to be reduced once we have more real food in the stockpiles) but building the +food ones? I don't think we need them now and I hope we never get into a position where we need them
 
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Edit 2: @Simon_Jester the Edit button exists precisely so that posters don't have to delete their posts before remaking them.
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I will thank you, Dmol, to find something better to do than to criticize how I shape posts. Sometimes I accidentally hit 'Reply' instead of editing two posts together on the first try. I prefer NOT to be condescended to.

Dmol8 said:
OK so no. Just no. I agree we should get Seo's research options done at some point and scrounging the PS to do so, but for now immediately after the relocations we should be doing all of the Caloric Reclamation actions as soon as we can because while on Earth that is for emergency plan completion only, in space those are going to be a very useful tech for better colonies once they are more developed and don't taste horribly.
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We don't need to build caloric reclamation systems on Earth in order to make the technology available in space. We've already developed it. If anyone wants to use it for space technology, they can continue to develop it for that application. That doesn't require a mass rollout of thousands of units to make food for millions, which is what the remaining Infrastructure/Agriculture projects represent.

Dmol8 said:
Caloric Reclamation is really important for space development, especially early one, because on Earth we can rely on the cycles of matter to keep things going even on a planet infested with Tiberium, but in space we have to build up mater cycles as part of our infrastructure in order to be able to live there and Caloric Reclamation and technologies derived from it will give us more slack and more flexibility in our synthetic cycles.
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The space station Shala is entirely all about finding ways to build matter cycles into our infrastructure. GDI already has other methods, too, such as the fungus farms we've been using since 2050. CRP is available to us, but while it's compact and cheap, the low quality of the products is a major drawback of the process. We shouldn't act as if it's something we must pursue fanatically. Much like how we don't actually need liquid tiberium power when we have fusion power and now ion power as alternatives.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I will thank you, Dmol, to find something better to do than to criticize how I shape posts. Sometimes I accidentally hit 'Reply' instead of editing two posts together on the first try. I prefer NOT to be condescended to.
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Alright. Fair enough. I'll just quote the post next time.

Simon_Jester said:
The space station Shala is entirely all about finding ways to build matter cycles into our infrastructure. GDI already has other methods, too, such as the fungus farms we've been using since 2050. CRP is available to us, but while it's compact and cheap, the low quality of the products is a major drawback of the process. We shouldn't act as if it's something we must pursue fanatically. Much like how we don't actually need liquid tiberium power when we have fusion power and now ion power as alternatives.
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So like Tib power you don't want to develop it because it is too problematic? Got it. I do hope Shala uses it though.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The way I figure it, Phase 8 may very well be the last round of fusion plants we build during the current Four Year Plan. I'll need to reassess the situation and think about that a little (or just watch Doruma slam out that infopost I see but haven't read yet as of this writing). As such, it's likely to be until mid-2062 before we do another round of fusion reactors, which gives us some breathing room to research other desirable techs that are likely to enhance fusion technology before we improve the fusion reactors.
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We might need another Phase for the ZA Factories, Wingman Orca and Hammerhead and the remaining Frigate Yard. Although, considering that it is only three power per factory now it. Phase 9 maybe the last one we need before upgrading to the improved version

It would be really nice though if we are able to finish Bergen Phase 3 before researching to increase the output.
 
Oledoms said:
We might need another Phase for the ZA Factories, Wingman Orca and Hammerhead and the remaining Frigate Yard. Although, considering that it is only three power per factory now it. Phase 9 maybe the last one we need before upgrading to the improved version

It would be really nice though if we are able to finish Bergen Phase 3 before researching to increase the output.
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The thing is, we're not going to get much of the remaining wingman drones or any large number of Zone Armor factories done before the end of 2061, so to a large extent you're talking about things that will happen in 2062 or later. Like, I'll count us lucky if we can find room to do one or two Zone Armor plants, or Orca Wingman Drones Phase 1 just to make sure the drones are immediately available for the first wave of light carriers before they hit the water in early 2062. Rolling out all the drone production lines for both types of VTOL aircraft, or six Zone Armor factories, is just a nonstarter; there isn't time.

Which means we have time in the interim to build up Bergen to Phase 3, and to research some of the technologies that would lead to a significantly improved fusion design: alien alloys, sparkle and buckler shields, and I forget if there's anything else.

Also remember that we will probably be getting at least some additional ion power from Red Zone projects completed in 2061, and definitely getting some more in 2062-63. This may mitigate our immediate needs for more Energy, enabling us to put off Phase 9 of the fusion plants until we're ready to roll out a good and proper improved design.
 
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bigking321 said:
We also need to do the infernium laser refits so our new ships start with the new system.
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Yeah. That's actually my top priority for "big things to do in 'Q3 and 'Q4 that aren't on the list of mandatory projects." Because it's 30 R/die, so if we don't do it this year, it's going to be very painful to get it done any time before 2063. As it stands, we may have some frigates hitting the water with old-style lasers and not disco balls, but it won't be nearly as bad as if we wait until 2063 to do the refits.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Yeah. That's actually my top priority for "big things to do in 'Q3 and 'Q4 that aren't on the list of mandatory projects." Because it's 30 R/die, so if we don't do it this year, it's going to be very painful to get it done any time before 2063. As it stands, we may have some frigates hitting the water with old-style lasers and not disco balls, but it won't be nearly as bad as if we wait until 2063 to do the refits.
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how many free dice do you want to direct to the military over the next three turns to acomplish this? I was kinda hoping to have the Station Bay and the Leopard Mark II factory fitted into our plan at least somewhat to ease the construction of Shala and Colombia!
 
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doruma1920 said:
The leading option for the raw capital goods goal was Nuuk Phase 4, which would possibly need a phase of Fusion to power it (depending on if our energy dropped too low). That would have cost ~13 dice for Nuuk and ~4 dice for the phase of Fusion if it was needed and provided 32 Capital Goods and 8 Energy.
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Yeah, regret about that. If I wasn't offline at the time the discussion of renegotiation was taking place, I would have made a harder push not to do it.
I think we already knew that Chicago was going to change to a HI project in some way before we changed out Goals, and we really did have a decent spread of small Capitol Goods options.
I guess we were just too stuck on seeing Nuuk as the only real option.
 
Vehrec said:
how many free dice do you want to direct to the military over the next three turns to acomplish this? I was kinda hoping to have the Station Bay and the Leopard Mark II factory fitted into our plan at least somewhat to ease the construction of Shala and Colombia!
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I dunno. In fairness, it's kind of a zero-sum game. If it's any consolation, my post-2061Q1 plans are, so far as possible, going to try to avoid and minimize Military dice expenditure on anything that is not a Plan target in 2061Q2 and 'Q3, so that we can clear the decks without having a requirement to spend Free dice on the military in 2061Q4, thus letting us at least get part-way through the projects you mention.

Furthermore, we can segue more or less directly into building those projects before we start Shala and Columbia, even in 2062Q1. Because they're so beneficial to a starting space station that doing them first arguably saves time, even if they're directly taking up dice that could otherwise go to the station projects.

We have a +31 bonus on station construction. Assuming no other bonuses accrue,* our average d100 roll is thus 81.5 Progress per die.

Without the station bay and the new Leopard yard, finishing those stations costs 2610 Progress each, by my count. With those improvements, each station costs 2145 Progress. I'm pretty sure that on net we actively make savings great enough to justify the new infrastructure projects, just from how much it shaves off the construction costs. This is the benefit we get from doing these projects first- it is actively advantageous for us to spend 2062Q1 and Q2 spending dice just building up the station bay and Leopard II yard and doing the odd bit of orbital cleanup here and there, and delaying start of the stations until both projects are finished!

On the other hand, you're totally right that it would be nice to have some of that ancillary work done in advance, before reapportionment. But in this case, it's not so critical- I'm pretty sure the will will be there to go right on activating all our Orbital dice pretty much right from the start of the Plan, or at least very early IN the Plan. I know I'll be lobbying for it.
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*(And I'm anticipating at least +4 bonuses in the first two years of the next Plan for that area. Kudzu Phase 3 is an obvious target for Agriculture as soon as we're not frantically hammering on the Stored Food target, and we should definitely try to get the Orbital AEVA done early in the next Plan if we can, because Orbital is perfect for AEVA because so many things are huge phased megaprojects where +3 bonuses per die will really add up over time.

HousePet said:
Yeah, regret about that. If I wasn't offline at the time the discussion of renegotiation was taking place, I would have made a harder push not to do it.
I think we already knew that Chicago was going to change to a HI project in some way before we changed out Goals, and we really did have a decent spread of small Capitol Goods options.
I guess we were just too stuck on seeing Nuuk as the only real option.
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Nah, the nanotube option wasn't there, and Bergen is a pretty inefficient Capital Goods source, and Reykjavik Phase 5 is a megaproject in its own right, on the same general level as Nuuk Phase 4.

Given what we knew at the time, it seemed reasonably likely that we were downsizing our commitments and agreeing to something we already wanted to do anyway. Instead, the crystal beam laser rollout turns out to be both bigger and more powerful than I anticipated, so that we wind up doing almost exactly the same amount of work we'd have needed to do anyway, if we weren't already committed to Chicago Phase 4, which to be fair we had made no promise whatsoever to do at the time.


Huh. Okay, Derpmind 's modification of my plan has reached equal popularity with my own version.

(She seems to have one more vote, but @Voidseer 's vote is for some weird reason being counted separately, possibly because Voidseer isn't using the word 'Plan' in the title of their vote?)

I honestly can't claim that my plan is really better than hers.

It gives us a better chance of getting the next fusion phase, but it's also specifically designed to probably not need that fusion phase this turn anyway, so meh whatever.

It gives us a better chance of getting shuttle service to BZ-18, but even with her plan there's a 42% chance of that happening, which is hardly bad.

It gets the fertilizer plants done, but hey, her plan does a Light Industry security review instead, and that's not nothing.

And she does put two more dice on Scrin research, enough that the gacha roll might even finish.

So... yeah.

...

Anyway, I respect her plan enough to vote for it myself, and while I have my reasons for doing things as I did them, and I'm not quite ready to just straight-up concede, I wouldn't feel at all cheated to see the vote declared early in her favor at this point, even if the QM would probably call that premature. Her modified version caught up with mine despite the initial momentum advantage, and that doesn't happen unless you've done something right.
 
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Heh. Okay, and that officially puts Derpmind over the line, unless there's a sudden surge for low-Service low-Scrin old-school Canned Beans.

Which will surprise me; there's a clear trend here.
 
Vehrec said:
I was kinda hoping to have the Station Bay and the Leopard Mark II factory fitted into our plan at least somewhat to ease the construction of Shala and Colombia
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The Leopard II Factory and Station Bay combined save two more dice then it costs to get them. So even if we are doing them after Q4 we would still save dice in the new Plan, though obviously it'd be better if we put some dice on them this plan.

Math:
Leopard II Factory: 0/350 ~5 dice saves 5 Progress compounding
Station Bay: 0/400 ~5 dice saves 10 Progress compounding
Total saved per station = 15 + 30 + 60 + 120 + 240 = 465 Progress
Current Total cost of Shala/Columbia = 80 + 165 + 335 + 675 + 1355 = 2610, ~32 dice each
New Total cost of Shala/Columbia = 65 + 135 + 275 + 555 + 1115 = 2145, ~26 dice each
Total dice saved = (32 - 26) * 2 = ~12 dice
Total dice spent = 5 + 5 = 10 dice

Still I fully support investing some dice into getting Leopard II and the Station Bay online in Q4 if Enterprise is locked up. The only other thing I'd consider is Orbital Clean Up, and that too can wait until our plan goals are locked in.
 
Attempting to fix where my vote appears.

[X] Attempting To Supply The Canned Beans with alloys
[X] Plan: Day of the Tendril, Crystal Beam Industrial Carriers
[X] Plan Space Progress Tendrils and Claws also Carriers
[X] Attempting To Supply The Canned Beans

//Edit: Fixed
 
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