Alright, swap has been made due to a lack of overall objections and a general leaning people have of wanting the S-MARV Fleet done.
@Crazycryodude Given that the original plan has switched the admin die to finishing the MARV fleet, and that the only difference between your plan and mine is that one change, would you consider editing your plan vote to do the same? With the way things have gone so far and the lack of objections, I don't think there are many people, if anyone, voting for your plan specifically because it puts the admin die on OSRCT instead of the MARV fleet.
 
@Crazycryodude Given that the original plan has switched the admin die to finishing the MARV fleet, and that the only difference between your plan and mine is that one change, would you consider editing your plan vote to do the same? With the way things have gone so far and the lack of objections, I don't think there are many people, if anyone, voting for your plan specifically because it puts the admin die on OSRCT instead of the MARV fleet.

Yeah at this point I'm fine changing it, everyone seems pretty universally in favor of finishing the fleet, myself included. So especially since the parent plan got edited too, edit made.

[X] Plan Mass Military and the Mysterious Martian Materials
 
And it may still fail if the dice roll like they did with perennials phase 3 this past turn.

So better to overcommit the die to get it done, than to pray for above average rolls.
It depends.

If we're not in a hurry to complete a project (say, ASAT Phase 4, which we have to do at some point but just aren't feeling the urgency for), then a "slow-roll" is usually the best strategy, because wasting dice is a bad idea.

If we urgently desire to get a project done quickly because its benefits are great, then we talk about investing extra dice to make sure it gets done quickly. Usually you can tell because people are investing more than is required to give the thing a 50% chance of success.

Fixed vote. Prioritizing these two because I want to focus our attention on Karachi rather than spend mil dice on MARVs for the next few turns. Even if incomes suffers for a bit
See, that's the thing. I don't think the MARVs do detract from "attention on Karachi." Karachi isn't just threatened from the direction of India, it's threatened from the opposite direction- that nuke-happy Afghan Nod warlord. Giving him more things to worry about in more directions potentially works to our advantage by splitting his attention away from Karachi, and GDI securing more positions in the Middle Eastern Red Zone definitely has that effect.

What the MARVs mean is that we spend four less Military dice on general projects (which, given how many dice we've already spent, can only have a few-percent effect on total military strength one way or the other)... And instead spend quite a bit more than four dice on projects that specifically strengthen our forces in the Middle East and provide some superheavy, self-sustaining assets our enemies will find it difficult to counter.

1) Even single kiloton explosions are not small things, and Blue Zones are not that big.
Uju, the Blue Zones cover 18.5% of the world's land surface area, and house less than 10% of its current population. In more tightly concentrated population centers than today, with less sprawl.

The Blue Zones are small compared to the entire Earth, but huge compared to the problem of "we need to find a spot where we can plunk down a facility that, if it goes 'kaboom,' will wreck everything within a four kilometer radius."

For instance, the Western US Blue Zone now extends all the way over the Sierra Nevada and out into the deserts. That's the same general region the US government literally nuked the hell out of because it was so desolate and isolated and irrelevant that you could just blast it over and over with atomic weapons without it really mattering.

Alaska and Greenland are Blue Zones. They cannot be that densely populated- even if Greenland has lots of refugees who inexplicably never moved back to Europe after TWII and the reversal of tiberium spread in the 2030s, they'd be concentrated along the coasts in cities easy to supply.

The Empty Quarter in Arabia is becoming a Blue Zone. Fucking Kamchatka is a Blue Zone. If you tell me those are densely populated heartlands where we can't safely plunk down an industrial facility that goes "bang" to the tune of double digit kilotons if Nod hits it just right with a strategic weapon (that is, other than a nuclear weapon which they have hundreds of anyway)... I'm just going to laugh.

5) Nod have to build and maintain their own nukes.
With a liquid T reactor you've done most of the work for them.
And its much harder to gather the political will to retaliate against an industrial accident than a nuking.
Nod can make as much plutonium as they want out of their standard tiberium refining processes, and every warlord of note has done so.

Apparently, catalyst missiles, by contrast, are hard enough to make that Kane can successfully monopolize the production tooling, at least in principle.

So here is what I am understanding.

Q3
1) Finish Savannah for profit.
2) Start Beirut MARV Hub
Q4
2) Finish Beirut Hub(ideally)
3)Start fleet
Q1
1) Finish fleet(and hub if unlucky)
2) Start Karachi
What I'm planning around is

Q3
1) Finish Savannah for profit.
2) Spend enough on MARV hubs that we get Beirut for sure and hopefully also Istanbul, the next in line.

Q4
1) Finish Istanbul if necessary. This could require a military die if we're unlucky, but that's why my plan throws 2+2 dice to get a median result of well over 250 Progress, enough to get two hubs.
2) Build the fleets in Beirut and Istanbul. Note that it's tiberium dice doing most of the heavy lifting here; we only need two Military dice on the project, just as we only spend two Military dice on the hubs in Q3.

2060Q1+Q2
1) Karachi Karachi Karachi. MAYBE like ONE die finishing some MARVs IF NECESSARY.

In a way, this is a way to spend Tiberium dice fortifying our position in the Middle East (where we have a LOT of stuff to secure, not just Karachi, because of how much of our recent economic growth comes from mining Tib in the massive Middle Eastern and North African Red Zones).
 
To be incredibly blunt about it, if we do Beirut we likely won't be able to do Karachi...
That's not true. Like, it's just not. If we're building MARV hubs in Q3, we build fleets in Q4, then we do Karachi in 2060Q1 and 'Q2 like people have been planning all along. The only thing it forestalls would be a decision to further accelerate the Karachi Sprint and start it in 2059Q4, which is not, to put it mildly, a general thread consensus position. Personally I'm planning to spend Q4 throwing about fourteen dice at the military... of which two, only two, go to MARVs.

and I would really like to get Karachi done. MARV fleets beyond maybe Savannah can wait until Q1 when we're actually pushing Karachi through. The timing is incredibly full of crunch and trying to buff ourselves up as much as possible for whatever's waiting in India, and MARVs in the middle east do not help in India.
There's a major Nod warlord whose only plausible base locations are in either the Arabian peninsula or the bits of Afghanistan-ish land that are still a Yellow Zone. He's the one who's nuke-happy. Either way he is a major threat to Karachi if we actually think about him, even if he historically plays it cagey to avoid being targeted.

I'd like to distract him with more hardened military targets that won't result in tens of thousands of dead if he decides to blow the place up. MARV hubs in Red Zones are a good candidate.

So I don't agree with your position on the subject. I think the MARVs do help lay groundwork, and don't take away anything we critically need for Karachi because we're spending double digit numbers of dice on Military every single turn.

Yeah I am not gonna lie. I'd prefer the compromise option myself. It seems more palatable to me than spending what is up to 6 mil dice minimum on MARVs(even if useful) compared to the War factories being done now which help everyone in the Armed forces.
I'm not planning on six unless we consistently roll badly.

I'm planning on two (plus Tib dice) to get two hubs, then two (plus Tib dice) to do the bulk of the fleet construction. That should get us one MARV fleet and, at worst, a second unfinished fleet that can be pushed over the line later.

Also, the MARVs aren't really competing with the war factory refits for me. I'd stick war factory refits into my plan instead of OSRCT if I were inclined to do them this turn. The reason I'm not is because I'm spending free dice on the ICS (which I think DOES benefit the military even if many people don't seem to look at it that way), and because I'm hesitant and tired about spending Capital Goods we technically don't have yet on the project.

Because our timing on Karachi is very, very, very tight to get as much prep as we can crammed in before Q1 and whatever nightmare we crack open in India? And we don't have the spare dice for multiple MARV fleets?
We've spent dozens of Military dice already during this plan alone, strengthening the overall military' forces.

Four more, especially four more that instead get spent doing something that distracts the other Nod warlord who's in a position to threaten Karachi, aren't somehow the end-all be-all of our requirements.

Karachi has two flanks.

And...

Look, it's not like there's a four-die project "Be Ready For India" that I'm steadfastly refusing to do here. If the first 60-70 or so Military dice spent on the Plan between 2058Q1 and 2059Q4 aren't enough to prepare us for what's in India, upping that number to 64 or 74 won't change anything.

I just think the Beirut MARV both isn't immediately necessary, and is liable to leave us committing dice to MARVs next turn when we really want to work ourselves up for the Karachi sprint. Our Ground Forces are the most confident of any branch- they can hold the approach to Mecca a little longer.
It's not just Mecca, it's the +50 RpT, the +6 Red Zone mitigation, and the part where it gives Nukey Afghan Warlord something to think about other than "so, how much can I get the Indian Warlord to bribe me with in exchange for launching strikes on that stuff GDI's building in the Indus River Valley all of a sudden?"

Marginally over a third actually. Not less than ten percent.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant 10% of today's population in real life. Like @RCNAnon said.

What I'm getting at is, even if GDI's population has expanded through conquest of Yellow Zones and refugees from deeper in the Yellow Zones to something more like 600 million (I personally doubt it's that much)... Well, GDI has less than 10% of the total OTL population of the world, and nearly 20% of the world's land area to put them in, including some areas that in real life already hold huge dense populations. I'm not sure what the combined population of Japan, South Korea, the British Isles, and the east and west coasts of the United States are, but I'm pretty sure you could hold well over half of GDI's total population just in those areas, without making them any more populous than they are today.

So the idea that GDI can't find isolated patches of countryside to stick a liquid tiberium reactor in where a 10-20 kiloton explosion, or even a refinery explosion an order of magnitude larger, would cause only limited, localized damage beyond the destruction of the plant itself... Yeah, I think GDI wouldn't have real trouble doing that, at least for the first waves of construction.
 
Before building zone factory, we should get this first.
[ ] Zone Defender Revision

This is just a hunch but cheaper might be less capgood per factory.
I suspect that it just gives us lower Progress costs. But even that would be very good, because lower Progress costs for the factory mean we waste less dice- we can budget two dice and have a reasonable chance of early completion, then more confidence about the project being sure to complete with a third die. Instead of having to spend three dice each time and worrying about a fourth.

I agree with that.
Although at the same time there are significant infrastructure elements that are more vulnerable.
Absolutely, but unless GDI is eating stupid pills, there are steps that can be made to limit the vulnerabilities. Refineries probably shouldn't be keeping hundreds of liters of liquid T sitting around without a specific clear plan to ship it out. Shipments themselves would have to be handled with care. And so on.
 
Q3
1) Finish Savannah for profit.
2) Spend enough on MARV hubs that we get Beirut for sure and hopefully also Istanbul, the next in line.

Q4
1) Finish Istanbul if necessary. This could require a military die if we're unlucky, but that's why my plan throws 2+2 dice to get a median result of well over 250 Progress, enough to get two hubs.
2) Build the fleets in Beirut and Istanbul. Note that it's tiberium dice doing most of the heavy lifting here; we only need two Military dice on the project, just as we only spend two Military dice on the hubs in Q3.

2060Q1+Q2
1) Karachi Karachi Karachi. MAYBE like ONE die finishing some MARVs IF NECESSARY.

So for me I want the Refits done. I think they are an important benefit to the GDI and you are saying that it doesn't compete with MARVs for you but the plan being posited does, at least to me, exactly that. I like the refits more here because while Hubs protect our income the Refits help(at least narratively) the whole GDI and give us 1-2 mil dice which we can use. So for me the sooner we get this up the better.

Also I don't necessarily agree with the "flanking the Shah of Atom" argument. The Red Zone Hub is located in Beirut, Lebanon which is on the coast of the Mediterranean. It's too far of a distance to be considered flanking in any real sense and it's not likely to add to the calculation of nuking Karachi cause the MARV is quite far. The Ion Canons add more to the fear of nukes than a MARV would imo.
 
So I started this for a half hearted joke post but then I actually ran the numbers and holy shit these are sobering.

Note this is a table based just on the whole countries that we control as Blue Zones (or very closely).
1. Japan: 126,476,461
2. United Kingdom: 67,886,011
3. South Africa: 59,308,690
4. South Korea: 51,269,185
5. Morocco: 36,910,560
6. Madagascar: 27,691,018
7. Côte d'Ivoire: 26,378,274
8. North Korea: 25,778,816
9. Netherlands: 17,134,872
10. Senegal: 16,743,927
Total: 455, 577, 814
Note, this is the top ten countries we control wholly. We only have to fit 150 million more people tops in the most populous parts of the US, South America and some of the most densely populated areas of Europe and Russia. Of course, wait there's more!

11. Guinea: 13,132,795
12. Belgium: 11,589,623
13. Portugal: 10,196,709
14. Sweden: 10,099,265
15. United Arab Emirates: 9,890,402
16. Sierra Leone: 7,976,983
17. Denmark: 5,792,202
18. Finland: 5,540,720
19. Norway: 5,421,241
20. Oman: 5,106,626
21. Liberia: 5,057,681
22. Ireland: 4,937,786
23. New Zealand: 4,822,233
Total: 555,142,080

So... all those hyper efficient extra modern cities we have? Nah, don't need em. They make things better sure but we don't need em. Note again I'm leaving out 1. The entirety of North America. 2. The entirety of South America. 3. Most of Western Europe and every bit of Russian land plus the lower Baltics.
TLDR: Haha GDI has so much space for its population its not funny.
 
Forgive my newbness, but I'm wondering where prototype and tactical plasma weapons fit in to the planning. I know they're part of the Plans goals, and that the situation as it stands it's more important to push out military gear over potential military gear, and anti-tib measures and mining are above as well, but after that? Because I believe it's important to get ahead of the Warlords in weapons as much as we can, and we're already behind them in a few too many areas.
 
Forgive my newbness, but I'm wondering where prototype and tactical plasma weapons fit in to the planning. I know they're part of the Plans goals, and that the situation as it stands it's more important to push out military gear over potential military gear, and anti-tib measures and mining are above as well, but after that? Because I believe it's important to get ahead of the Warlords in weapons as much as we can, and we're already behind them in a few too many areas.
Part of the reason they aren't done is our huge backlog of other projects, and another part of it is that they synergize with another project we expect is coming down the tubes. But mostly, it's the backlog-we've got a lot of other things to do, and a lot of new weapons need new chasis to put them onto, and aren't easily retrofit.
 
TLDR: Haha GDI has so much space for its population its not funny.

Just to build on this, our average population density worldwide is ~15.6 people per square mile, or less than Kazakhstan. Now, on a map instead of just averaged across all our raw territory, that probably comes out as 90%+ of the population in urban areas and then millions upon millions of square kilometers with a population density more like Mongolia or Greenland (aka even more fuckin' empty than Kazakhstan). I am definitely not worried about running out of space to stick refugees, apartment sprawl, military bases, or things that explode with great force in.
 
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Part of the reason they aren't done is our huge backlog of other projects, and another part of it is that they synergize with another project we expect is coming down the tubes. But mostly, it's the backlog-we've got a lot of other things to do, and a lot of new weapons need new chasis to put them onto, and aren't easily retrofit.
Ah, that's part of why T-Glass was such a big deal. And why there's the interest in the Martian material.
 
So I started this for a half hearted joke post but then I actually ran the numbers and holy shit these are sobering.

...

So... all those hyper efficient extra modern cities we have? Nah, don't need em. They make things better sure but we don't need em. Note again I'm leaving out 1. The entirety of North America. 2. The entirety of South America. 3. Most of Western Europe and every bit of Russian land plus the lower Baltics.

TLDR: Haha GDI has so much space for its population its not funny.
The reason we have the hyper-efficient cities, I think, is because living spread out is kind of bad in a lot of ways in this setting.

When a war comes through, you're more likely to have bad guys driving through your backyard or a pitched battle fought across your town, because it's easier for GDI to dig in at a perimeter and keep Nod out of a city than to keep them out of a giant swath of exurbs.

Tiberium, just tiberium in general, is a problem all the time, even in the Blue Zones. it's, again, a lot easier for GDI to concentrate abatement resources and do a really good job of keeping tiberium out of a city centers and out of carefully filtered municipal water supplies and so on. Keeping there from being any tiberium patches in a massive suburban sprawl, especially in the modern era when occasionally a tiberium vein just randomly erupts out of the ground or some shit and it's in the water tables and things... Nightmare.

Ion storms, as such, may be mostly a Red/Yellow Zone thing, but it seems like supercharged weather is also more of a problem. Lightly built structures like frame buildings are less stable, more prone to getting blown down or otherwise wrecked, while living in big heavy sturdily built stuff is safer all around.

Some of the major industries that commonly support rural lifestyles, like normal farming and mining and logging, have to a large extent been replaced by much more capital-intensive economic activities such as aquaponics and tiberium harvesting.

So with all of this in play, you see people being pulled more tightly into urban cores, and frankly GDI is probably actively encouraging this because people who are more tightly concentrated are usually easier to keep an eye on and Nod loves to infiltrate.
 
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