I haven't seen evidence to expect this; I was figuring on 300 Progress/die for +16 Energy remaining the baseline.

[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 1)
First wave continuous cycle fusion plants are still somewhat under development. However, they are ready enough for mass roll out, with only a few kinks in the connection systems remaining before they can be linked to the grid as a whole.
(Progress 372/350: 20 Resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (High Priority)

The fusion plants came online early in the first quarter of Seo's administration, and are a significant step forward. While not yet a military technology, fusion reactors like these have two clear design legacies that they are likely to leave. First is increasing miniaturization. The Navy has already begun noting their interest in attempting to build a fusion reactor that can fit on at least its fleet of Mountain class battleships, and Atlantis class aircraft carriers, if not the Governor class of cruisers or smaller. The higher energy density, and greater safety margins would allow significant resources towards greater allocations of energy weapons, sensors, and drive systems. Beyond that, the other branches want smaller reactors for more prosaic needs. Any of the current CCF plants are simply too large for all but the most permanent military bases, and for those, they are too centralized, and not resistant enough to strike operations. A smaller fusion reactor would provide for substantial benefits to a wide range of military operations elsewhere. The second legacy is more civil, and is primarily about making the systems cheaper. The current iteration is intentionally overbuilt and overengineered, with a more than paranoid set of safety features. Stripping down towards something a bit more reasonable will reduce the overall cost of the plants noticeably, especially when combined with greater standardization of parts, and future generations are likely to also be somewhat more reliable, and have greater availability, further reducing the costs of supplying energy to the many problems that
It is mostly conjecture Simon.

Please note the high emphasis on miniaturization and simplification of Fusion power plants in the update flavor text.

From past experience QM has limited Fusion projects to a Phase or two, before switching over to a new and better model of Fusion power plants. From peakers, to staggered cycle peakers, to continuous fusion power plants (this phase). It may not be the end.

From experience with tidal power plants, as the largest and more energy intensive projects are completed, what remains is smaller scale phases. Presumably not coincidentally it lines up with the desired direction the development of Fusion is to take.

So I expect smaller simpler Fusion plants to have halved progress and energy output, if we transition to them.

The track record hardly matters; we have huge Orbital commitments this Plan, so we're going to HAVE to spend Orbital dice aggressively. In the First Plan we largely ignored Orbital because we just didn't have the money. In the Second we did a lot more with it. This time there's gonna be more.

We need to predict what we will spend on, not just what we have spent on.
Counterpoint, I did do that. Both Infrastructure and Military are the picks I expect to take a lot of our attention, so I am effectively releasing free dice from those directions by voting them in the Graduates option. Additionally I keep in mind the dice reallocation where we will transfer a die from Services to Orbitals anyway. Furthermore, I keep Philadelphia payoffs in mind.

We will have a minimum of 5 Orbital Dice by the end of 2060, with 7 Free dice, 8 Military dice and 7 Infrastructure dice, if all goes according to my plan. That is a lot of Orbital Dice we can potentially activate with two other hotspots covered.
 
Hardly the first time the Temple was destroyed. Been rebuild all the same.
I mean, yes-maybe. On the other hand, by the time we're in any position to consider it, a lot will have happened. I don't care to try to predict that aspect of the future.

Plenty of Christians will have a major Problem with that.
To clarify, the point is that the site of Rome, even cleared of tiberium (assuming that this doesn't leave it below sea level, which I suspect it would) is going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up as something. It's not pressingly needed for human habitation, so... what, exactly? A reconstruction of Rome from the past? From what era? Classical? Medieval? Early modern? 2000-era?

This is not a trivial question, and the papacy will have long since relocated to some other place anyway.

I'm not saying there won't be an effort to reconstruct something on the site, but it's going to be a complicated thing and it's not as simple as "just restore." We are extremely lucky in the case of Mecca-Medina that the actual sacred sites in question are still there and physically more or less intact, and haven't just been disintegrated and turned into green rocks.

Truthfully, I don't find Sarang particularly likeable as our next treasurer candidate (especially when we have no idea how we'll pivot and she's clearly pretty fixated on the orbitals), but I think my biggest concern is a Sarang treasury and a Litvinov administration would be potentially problematic.
What do you think the odds are that Litvinov will still be in office in 2066 or 2070? The chief executive of GDI is a demanding position; not many people would even want it for more than eight years, I think.

Furthermore, if Litvinov does take charge for eight years and is still in office, and if Seo decides to retire at that time, Litvinov is the establishment by then. Mikoyan's adaptability is the point; she'll adapt to the power structure that exists, and if that power structure is Litvinov, she'll deal.

You're talking like Litvinov of eight years from now will still be in the same position as Litvinov today- a visionary constantly striving to remake everything. Maybe Mikoyan will be poorly suited to Litvinov's needs there, but she doesn't have to deal with Mikoyan, she has Seo. By the time Mikoyan succeeds to Seo's position (if she succeeds, since it isn't strictly speaking Seo's position to give), either Litvinov will have largely locked in her reforms and be looking for someone who can make them continue to happen, or she'll have failed and probably fallen out of office.

...and committing to Sarang costs us a potent bargaining chip, potentially ties us down politically, could lock out any other capable candidate coming out of the inside of the treasury, and further establishes the treasury as a relatively self contained fiefdom that only promotes from within.
Now these points are solid.

Although honestly I kind of like the idea of trying to play through all that friction. Gives us something to think about.

It is mostly conjecture Simon.

Please note the high emphasis on miniaturization and simplification of Fusion power plants in the update flavor text.
We've already been told that Phase 2 of the fusion plants will cost 300 Progress instead of 350. I'm pretty sure that's the simplification Ithillid's talking about.

From past experience QM has limited Fusion projects to a Phase or two, before switching over to a new and better model of Fusion power plants. From peakers, to staggered cycle peakers, to continuous fusion power plants (this phase). It may not be the end.
I'm pretty sure this is the end, and we've been told to expect this being the end, because this is the point at which the technology has firmly matured. We now have stable, continuously operational fusion reactors. Further research doesn't give us the kind of fusion reactors we build (giant power stations that generate gigawatts of energy). It gives the military reactors that might be used in their bases, things like that.

Now, we might still see some further incremental improvement. Maybe Phase 3 will cost 285 Progress instead of 300 or something. Maybe after 2-3 phases the plants go into serial production and the cost per die drops to 15 R each, so that they're finally outcompeting the available fission plant option on cost and not just dice requirements. Who knows?

But we don't know what to expect, and I don't want to plan around the assumption that the phase cost collapses to 150 Progress or something.

From experience with tidal power plants, as the largest and more energy intensive projects are completed, what remains is smaller scale phases. Presumably not coincidentally it lines up with the desired direction the development of Fusion is to take.
I doubt it. I think it's going to be more like the coal-fired plants in Soviet Planquest, where we just slam out phase after phase at roughly the same price, and any increase in efficiency pays off in more Energy output.

Because frankly that makes more sense, given that we're talking about huge global fusion reactor expansions.
 
I am sure there are more developments in the cards that are improvements to our current fusion power plants, but I would not expect anything before the technology has matured, so 10+ years maybe. We are speed-running the fusion development ladder as is.
 
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To clarify, the point is that the site of Rome, even cleared of tiberium (assuming that this doesn't leave it below sea level, which I suspect it would) is going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up as something. It's not pressingly needed for human habitation, so... what, exactly? A reconstruction of Rome from the past? From what era? Classical? Medieval? Early modern? 2000-era?

This is not a trivial question, and the papacy will have long since relocated to some other place anyway.

I'm not saying there won't be an effort to reconstruct something on the site, but it's going to be a complicated thing and it's not as simple as "just restore." We are extremely lucky in the case of Mecca-Medina that the actual sacred sites in question are still there and physically more or less intact, and haven't just been disintegrated and turned into green rocks.
True.

Where is the papacy actually? I assume the papal library and artifacts and the like were moved before tiberium ate the city?
I mean, yes-maybe. On the other hand, by the time we're in any position to consider it, a lot will have happened. I don't care to try to predict that aspect of the future.
which is why i talked about us doing it if the opportunity presents itself
 
[] Graduates
-[X] Tiberium
[X] Brigadier General Tali Jackson
[X] Arya Gulati
[X] Sarang Mikoyan
[X] Enhanced Security Services
 
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The Pathfinder is currently assigned to the space command exploratory division and has just recently made a voyage to Jupiter to drop off observation probes. It does not have the time to play cleanup.
Eh???
I never said the Pathfinder is doing orbital clean-up...
Pathfinder is proof of concept for a working reactionless drive.
If we have reactionless motion available, why would you spend fuel to clean up orbits? Hence, Clean-up is more efficient, but no longer Fusion capable.
 
Eh???
I never said the Pathfinder is doing orbital clean-up...
Pathfinder is proof of concept for a working reactionless drive.
If we have reactionless motion available, why would you spend fuel to clean up orbits? Hence, Clean-up is more efficient, but no longer Fusion capable.
Ah ok sorry, in that case the problem is still that G Drives are way too expensive and resource intensive to make. With Ion drives you can get good enough efficiency especially for anything in earth orbits if you are patient. A G drive shuttle would be the equivalent of using a supersonic jet that needs no fuel to drive to the nearest supermarket, it uses less fuel, but why use such an expensive vehicle for this, if there are other tasks it is infinitely better at.
 
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Not quite. So that d100 roll has a couple of features hidden inside it. For one thing, it is not Security rolls higher than Assassins Security wins, Assassins roll higher than Security Assassins win. The Assassins have to beat a multiple of the defense roll in order to produce killed characters, and not either disruptions to their work, or wounded characters. So a +5, can be as much as a +20 to a +25 against dying.
@Ithillid, may I ask you to add this bit to the update?
Because I, and I think more people, did not realize that Enhanced Security Services add this much to the survival against assassinations and are underestimating the +5 bonus, and not everyone reads all the posts in thread.
 
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[X] Graduates
-[X] Orbital
-[X] Infrastructure
[X] Enhanced Security Services
[X] Brigadier General Tali Jackson
[X] Sarang Mikoyan

Changing my vote since I liked the arguments towards Graduates and Sarang Mikoyan.
 
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The Super Orcas are designed to fly off essentially the same platforms as the old Orcas. Including existing Navy carriers. I think you are grossly overestimating the degree to which carriers are designed around their aircraft and not the other way around.

EDIT: Maybe Ithilid disagrees. I dunno.

@Ithillid , should we be worried that if we design the escort carriers before the wingman drones, the escort carriers will be unable to operate wingman drones? Can you please confirm this in-thread?

Will the fleet carriers, which use an already-established design that dates back to before Tib War Three, be unable to operate the wingman drones?

When it comes to carriers and the Wingman drones, the key problem is that wingman drones add a good 25-45 percent to the space required by any given squadron. What that translates to is not that it cannot operate wingman drones, it cannot operate the wingman drones without sacrificing some other part of its loadout. With a Fleet carrier what that will typically mean is that instead of loading on a general purpose mix in most cases, they will start loading a more specialized mix. If they are doing escort operations, you will see them loading tiltrotor wingman drones, and more Orcas. If they are doing strike operations, it is more firehawks and jet configuration drones. And the Atlantis class Fleet carrier has enough space that this is fairly viable. The thing is that the Escort carriers are already a very lean design, and won't be loading a third squad of Orcas native that can be stripped off to give the two remaining squads wingmen.

Edit: Lets assume, for the sake of argument that an Atlantis class aircraft carrier has 60 Firehawks in its standard complement (5 squadrons). Assuming that I am using the .25 more space system, you can sacrifice a squadron of Firehawks and everyone else gets a drone for escort. At .45 it gets a bit messier, but you can sacrifice two of the squadrons, and have three squadrons with wingmen, and then use the remaining space to allow wingman drones for things that are not Firehawks.

are we gonna rebuild jerusalem and rome as well? Once we recover them from the tiberium
Rome is gone, gone, gone. There is nothing there anymore, and any rebuilding will have to happen after the world is reclaimed from Tib. Same with Jerusalem at this point, although it was still partially intact (if deep in Nod territory) just a few years ago.
 
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Rome is gone, gone, gone. There is nothing there anymore, and any rebuilding will have to happen after the world is reclaimed from Tib. Same with Jerusalem at this point, although it was still partially intact (if deep in Nod territory) just a few years ago.
Tbf, i was explicitly talking about rebuilding because i had already guessed that. Still the destruction of queen of cities is sad to have been confirmed.

So the holy see moved to dublin?
 
What do you think the odds are that Litvinov will still be in office in 2066 or 2070? The chief executive of GDI is a demanding position; not many people would even want it for more than eight years, I think.

Furthermore, if Litvinov does take charge for eight years and is still in office, and if Seo decides to retire at that time, Litvinov is the establishment by then. Mikoyan's adaptability is the point; she'll adapt to the power structure that exists, and if that power structure is Litvinov, she'll deal.

You're talking like Litvinov of eight years from now will still be in the same position as Litvinov today- a visionary constantly striving to remake everything. Maybe Mikoyan will be poorly suited to Litvinov's needs there, but she doesn't have to deal with Mikoyan, she has Seo. By the time Mikoyan succeeds to Seo's position (if she succeeds, since it isn't strictly speaking Seo's position to give), either Litvinov will have largely locked in her reforms and be looking for someone who can make them continue to happen, or she'll have failed and probably fallen out of office.

The 750 Days: The Exclusive Retrospective of Emilia Litvinov (2060), Exclusive Article for TIME

Uh...that 20 Days after 2 Years. What happens to Litvinov that we know now that she only has 750 Days in which TIME covers her tenure as GDI's Secretary General?

Navy
Three battleships, bringing the total fleet to 36, have launched from the remaining battleship yards. Along with six newly built Governor class cruisers, these ships have been assigned to the south pacific, where their task is to begin interdicting the strait of Malacca, attempting to try and cut one of a series of critical nodes. While it will be a risky assignment, especially for the battleships still lacking effective point defense, interdicting the strait should provide both improved operational security for convoys across the South Pacific, and hopefully force Bintang to use her remaining heavy warships so that they can be brought to battle and destroyed.

Point Defense need to be done next turn. Got it.

[ ] Expand Orbital Communications Network (Phase 3)
With another major wave of clearance done, further communications bandwidth can be launched, reducing the number of dead zones and increasing connection reliability, including the expansion of voting access.
(Progress 140/135: 15 resources per die) (+2 Logistics) (5 Political Support) (Fusion)

With the increased demand for communications bandwidth and connectivity within and between Blue Zones and GDI mobile assets, the Initiative has chosen to further expand its satellite communications network. Anchored by the set of space stations still under construction and expansion in high orbit, multiple new constellations of broadcast and communication satellites have been seeded in the skies above and below the orbits claimed by the Tiberium stabilizer arrays, reinforcing the invisible web of communications that link every GDI asset on and around planet Earth. Further satellites have been laid to support GDI scientific and industrial operations in cislunar space, with further plans to expand the networks towards Mars and the asteroid belts in support of planned GDI industrial operations. Many of the orbits have been simplified and rationalized at the same time, as the removal of much of the mass of debris orbiting the planet is nearing completion.

Hm so we want Orbital Cleanup before Expanding Orbital Communications. Alright.

[X] Brigadier General Tali Jackson

Will probably put more in later.

I'm honestly just quoting this one so I can come back and see what was put in later.

Um. Why is no one voting for Sarang? She's giving us one of the strongest traits possible! Doubling our crits is huge. Crits can give long term bonuses that change the face of entire sectors of projects, or unique benefits we'd otherwise never be able to get otherwise. And Sarang was one of our strongest candidates for secretary. The only "downside" is giving her the office... in up to twelve years! That three entire Plans from now.

She's absolutely the strongest recruitment candidate on the list and I'm completely astounded that she hasn't had even a single vote so far. What the heck do y'all have against her?!?

Opportunity Cost Potential. That's it. Compared to other options she is just not that interesting to take to make a commitment to changing of the guard at 12 Years. Don't get me wrong if we didn't have the builder from the Himalayas or the War Hero as an option I'd take her, but like this she the least of the ones I want to take and Enhanced Security comes first to keep our gains. If she shows up next plan I'll probably take her if she hasn't picked up some nasty bad talent by then.

Heh. Portland, Maine? Somehow, thought it'd be Portland, Oregon. For all I know that's a Yellow Zone these days.

Maybe, but the problem with those is that there's nothing there to rebuild; they're deep within Red Zones and have been effectively eaten by tiberium.

Everything that was once the Basilica of St. Peter or the Wailing Wall or whatever, is almost certainly green death rock now, so by the time we're done smashing up the death rock and converting it into useful stuff in our refineries, there's nothing really left.

You can say that, but it's not gonna be the same.

I imagine there's plenty of Jews with sentimental dreams of reclaiming Israel (and, no doubt, Palestinians who refuse to give up on general principles). I imagine there's some kind of support for turning the site of what was once Rome into a glorified historical recreation or theme park or something.

But it's not gonna be the same.

Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Hardly the first time the Temple was destroyed. Been rebuild all the same.


Plenty of Christians will have a major Problem with that.

When otl Notre damn burned down, the Funds to rebuild it was collected in days

To clarify, the point is that the site of Rome, even cleared of tiberium (assuming that this doesn't leave it below sea level, which I suspect it would) is going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up as something. It's not pressingly needed for human habitation, so... what, exactly? A reconstruction of Rome from the past? From what era? Classical? Medieval? Early modern? 2000-era?

This is not a trivial question, and the papacy will have long since relocated to some other place anyway.

I'm not saying there won't be an effort to reconstruct something on the site, but it's going to be a complicated thing and it's not as simple as "just restore." We are extremely lucky in the case of Mecca-Medina that the actual sacred sites in question are still there and physically more or less intact, and haven't just been disintegrated and turned into green rocks.

When it comes to carriers and the Wingman drones, the key problem is that wingman drones add a good 25-45 percent to the space required by any given squadron. What that translates to is not that it cannot operate wingman drones, it cannot operate the wingman drones without sacrificing some other part of its loadout. With a Fleet carrier what that will typically mean is that instead of loading on a general purpose mix in most cases, they will start loading a more specialized mix. If they are doing escort operations, you will see them loading tiltrotor wingman drones, and more Orcas. If they are doing strike operations, it is more firehawks and jet configuration drones. And the Atlantis class Fleet carrier has enough space that this is fairly viable. The thing is that the Escort carriers are already a very lean design, and won't be loading a third squad of Orcas native that can be stripped off to give the two remaining squads wingmen.


Rome is gone, gone, gone. There is nothing there anymore, and any rebuilding will have to happen after the world is reclaimed from Tib. Same with Jerusalem at this point, although it was still partially intact (if deep in Nod territory) just a few years ago.


I'll need to check on these later. It's later let's see what checks out:

Portland, Oregon is probably in a Green Zone, but it was definitely a Yellow Zone City at the start of this quest. Checked the old Zone Map for that.

Also while Rome might not be rebuilt because of differing logistics after Tiberium is cleaned up from the Italian Peninsula the Third Temple is a thing that has yet to be built on location in Jerusalem and that location is a very specific one a Planned City can be built around.

I mean, if we want to not be powering our Inhibitors and our automated shipyards and our Zone Armor factories and our heavy robotics facilities and whatever piece of Scrin-based Clarke tech we happen to pull out of our hats this Plan with liquid Tiberium...

Ah, but I do want us working with Liquid Tiberium now to get some experience with it because future Abatement actions will require us to work with it at some point. Also like I expect to build up our power plants a lot cheaper after we finish developing fusion power plants.

I believe that this is now a more efficiently managed project using the Grav-Drive. So no Fusion here.
The number of remaining phases shrunk a lot, and we now recover much more R per phase.
This happened after the Pathfinder completed.

The Pathfinder is currently assigned to the space command exploratory division and has just recently made a voyage to Jupiter to drop off observation probes. It does not have the time to play cleanup.

Eh???
I never said the Pathfinder is doing orbital clean-up...
Pathfinder is proof of concept for a working reactionless drive.
If we have reactionless motion available, why would you spend fuel to clean up orbits? Hence, Clean-up is more efficient, but no longer Fusion capable.

Ah ok sorry, in that case problem is that G Drives are way too expensive and resource intensive to make. With Ion drives you can get good enough efficiency especially for anything in earth orbits if you are patient. A G drive shuttle would be the equivalent of using a supersonic jet that needs no fuel to drive to the nearest supermarket, it uses less fuel, but why use such an expensive vehicle for this, if there are other tasks it is infinitely better at.

Uh @Ithillid? That question about whether Orbital Cleanup is Fusion Dice based now is getting more relevant. Also what are we using for cleanup if it is not Fusion? And while I'm asking you stuff what is going on with Litnov having a story about it in TIME that counts 750 Days of her reign?

Truthfully, I don't find Sarang particularly likeable as our next treasurer candidate (especially when we have no idea how we'll pivot and she's clearly pretty fixated on the orbitals), but I think my biggest concern is a Sarang treasury and a Litvinov administration would be potentially problematic. Litvinov is exactly the sort of person who's going to want to staff GDI's bureaucracy with people who share her ideals in her quest to 'remake the soul of GDI'. She's going to want people in power who buy into what she's saying, and who she can trust to push her ideals without her direct involvement and likely carry those ideals into the next administration. Sarang is many things, but someone Litvinov can trust to actually perpetuate and enforce her new brand of ideals is not really one of those. And all this while the Treasurer is probably the single most powerful bureaucratic office in GDI right now.

Making this commitment now, when we're not sure what the 5th(?) FYP will even require, what the political landscape will be like then, or even how our current boss is going to run things is woefully premature. Granger let Granger run wild- I'm skeptical Litvinov will let Seo do the same, let alone Sarang. We're playing someone who actually plans on engaging in politics, with a wildcard political reformer as our boss, and one of the most influential seats in the government- we're going to have to consider the political landscape beyond 'fuck the free-marketers and the reactionaries', and committing to Sarang costs us a potent bargaining chip, potentially ties us down politically, could lock out any other capable candidate coming out of the inside of the treasury, and further establishes the treasury as a relatively self contained fiefdom that only promotes from within.

If Sarang best fits us for our replacement- we can decide that in 8 years, and the opportunity costs won't be devastating- while it's obviously not a perfect comparison, there's been a lot of handwringing over the political bargain that promised the succession to a hard line, amoral technocrat over in the MNKh- why not hedge our bets when we can perfectly afford to?

Criticals are their own form of opportunity costs in getting better tech and long term enhancements to our Actions. Your argument has convinced me to vote for Sarang instead of better security. Well. Thank you for changing my mind.

Well time to vote and then go make a new version of my plan:

[X] Graduates
-[X] Orbital
-[X] Tiberium
[X] Sarang Mikoyan
[X] Arya Gulati
[X] Brigadier General Tali Jackson

I know this vote probably won't win and I'll be making my plan for the wining vote, but I actually am willing to take a risk on losing some of our Hero Bonuses to get the right Hero Bonuses now and use them.
 
That is what I am currently thinking, yes.
neat. Any cool cathedrals they built on the emerald island?
Also while Rome might not be rebuilt because of differing logistics after Tiberium is cleaned up from the Italian Peninsula the Third Temple is a thing that has yet to be built on location in Jerusalem and that location is a very specific one a Planned City can be built around.
"We must take rebuild jerusalem!"
*Deus vult chants*
 
[X] Graduates
-[X] Orbital
-[X] Military
[X] Enhanced Security Services
[X] Brigadier General Tali Jackson
[X] Sarang Mikoyan
 
Uh...that 20 Days after 2 Years. What happens to Litvinov that we know now that she only has 750 Days in which TIME covers her tenure as GDI's Secretary General?
Speaking as the one who wrote those blurbs– again, signed off by Ithillid– it's a TIME article published in a magazine. The IC writers just wants to make a short-range introspective on how the eminence atop GDI has done so far, and OOCly, this provides a medium for Ithillid or me or another potential writer to signpost Litvinov's ongoing reforms and the short-term repercussions that stems from it. One thing to note, after all, is that Ithillid does roll extra hidden dice for various worldly goings.

Also, in case it wasn't clear: The 1d50 I rolled was the low-end Tech Roll that resulted in the Lightweight Armour Composite after the Planned Cities completions.
 
Here goes nothing, tried to merge the identical votes via the manage votes menu.

Adhoc vote count started by Faraway-R on Oct 18, 2021 at 7:43 AM, finished with 179 posts and 87 votes.
 
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