Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

DecaffeinatedOwl · Jul 12, 2021

Ithillid said:
No.

OK, that's weirder than not having a sub force. I could see some overfocus on capital ships, but--no frigates at all? Are Battleships and Carriers expected to provide their own air defense and ASW in addition to their main duties? Are convoys to be escorted by capital ships?

Is this the hole the Governor's supposed to fill, partially? A dedicated anti-air cruiser?

EDIT:

Ithillid said:
Edit: Basically, prewar naval doctrine was heavily influenced by politics. Which typically emphasized big heavy capital ships to the near exclusion of all else, because that was big and impressive and a mark of GDI's material superiority. Rolling up with a carrier and a handful of battleships was something that GDI could do and generally cowed everyone else into submission. The thing is that NOD turned around and found good ways to counter that, generally with stealth fielded artillery and stealth bomber strikes.
With the new naval command very aware of the problems the fleet had, there is a push towards smaller, lighter, more diversified and more survivable. So cruisers as the mainline combatant and carrier escort. Escort carriers, hydrofoils, and eventually frigate and destroyer weight vessels if needed.

So they were smoking something, but not now. Whew.

Ithillid · Jul 12, 2021

TripleTango said:
OK, that's weirder than not having a sub force. I could see some overfocus on capital ships, but--no frigates at all? Are Battleships and Carriers expected to provide their own air defense and ASW in addition to their main duties? Are convoys to be escorted by capital ships?

Is this the hole the Governor's supposed to fill, partially? A dedicated anti-air cruiser?

We never see any escort forces in the games. Everything is either a carrier or a battleship. Rarely both.

Klaus Wulfenback · Jul 12, 2021

[X] Plan Power, Mil and Cons Good

[X] Plan MORE POWER!

DecaffeinatedOwl · Jul 12, 2021

Ithillid said:
We never see any escort forces in the games. Everything is either a carrier or a battleship. Rarely both.

I always figured that was Gameplay and Story segregation at work. We don't see the Navy's full kit onscreen for the same reason we don't see how GDI launches its Ion Cannons into orbit--it doesn't matter to gameplay.

Oh, well. I'm not entirely sold on rolling out the cruisers before a dedicated air defense vessel, but if the Navy thinks its best I can play ball.

Simon_Jester · Jul 12, 2021

TripleTango said:
I mean, I know that attack subs need some sophistication but at the same time there's the Avatar. That's not light, insophisticated or inexpensive by any stretch.

Yes, but:

1) Avatars are something like an order of magnitude smaller than a viable attack sub. This means that they can, for example, be manufactured in pieces and assembled on-site, whereas doing this with submarines requires really big infrastructure of a kind Nod cannot possibly maintain.

2) Avatars can probably be manufactured to lower tolerances because they're not trying to keep every last bit of it inaudible to hydrophones or invisible to radar. As we can now infer, Nod's already cracked myomers, too, which probably simplifies the mechanics a lot.

3) Avatars, well, you say you get what I mean about construction, but suffice to say that an Avatar could be manufactured nearly anywhere on Earth in principle (does Nod still have the old Tib War II era tunnel network for moving supplies?), whereas submarines can only be put together in a place that works as a port, and also need a permanent port facility for basing between missions. Nod's probably up to the task of cloaking such things, but there's only so many places they can be and that narrows down GDI's search task a lot.

4) Avatars are heavily implied to be part of the elite cadre of "Nod proper" troops on the high side of Nod's 'high/low' mix. Submarines would have to be the same... but that would involve a considerable dilution of Nod's elite cadre to create an entire naval branch.

trooperist · Jul 12, 2021

For the Navy I think the best thing to do is to finish Point Defense refits and the Hydrofoil shipyards before we move on to investing in further projects.

Point Defense is the most pressing since we currently have our piracy issue at least somewhat controlled. The biggest threat to our ships right now is a surprise missile fired from stealth. More survivability means we keep more ships alive and our naval numbers continue to climb. Of course we are going to need more naval ships that a heavier than a patrol hydrofoil eventually.

Simon_Jester · Jul 12, 2021

Ithillid said:
Not really. No. Quite a few of them, but rarely as anything other than a convoy perimeter.

Edit: Basically, prewar naval doctrine was heavily influenced by politics. Which typically emphasized big heavy capital ships to the near exclusion of all else, because that was big and impressive and a mark of GDI's material superiority. Rolling up with a carrier and a handful of battleships was something that GDI could do and generally cowed everyone else into submission. The thing is that NOD turned around and found good ways to counter that, generally with stealth fielded artillery and stealth bomber strikes.
With the new naval command very aware of the problems the fleet had, there is a push towards smaller, lighter, more diversified and more survivable. So cruisers as the mainline combatant and carrier escort. Escort carriers, hydrofoils, and eventually frigate and destroyer weight vessels if needed.

You'd really think they'd have frigates and destroyers... Those are extremely basic and it'd take incredible political stupidity for them to just not exist. Like, "No one other than Redmond Boyle ever made a decision involving naval procurement" stupid.

On the other hand, they may be relying on legacy world navy ships for that, stuff that dates back to the '90s and the time when GDI military equipment was recognizable real world stuff, or ships built to similar designs and only slightly newer... Stuff that's completely obsolete in the face of post-Tib War II Nod technology like cloaking.

That I could easily believe- GDI relying heavily on escort combatants built in the 1990s, 2000s, and maybe 2010s, having focused more recent shipbuilding on capital ships alone, and having suffered greatly for it as the escort combatants get cut to ribbons by Nod ambushes using cloaked weapons platforms that their old radar systems can't track and things like that.

Ithillid said:
We never see any escort forces in the games. Everything is either a carrier or a battleship. Rarely both.

We hardly ever see the GDI fleet in action at all, though.

I mean, we don't really see GDI military personnel having a service pistol in the TWIII gameplay, because nobody bangs away with a pistol on the scale of RTS combat. We never see a ration tin or a latrine.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Ithillid · Jul 12, 2021

TripleTango said:
Oh, well. I'm not entirely sold on rolling out the cruisers before a dedicated air defense vessel, but if the Navy thinks its best I can play ball.

The thing is that a dedicated antiaircraft ship basically ends up looking a lot like a cruiser at the end of the day. Some railgun artillery, a VLS pack with midrange SAMs, and 2-6 box launchers for shorter ranged missiles, and some PD. Especially since the actual bubble where you can see the aircraft is pretty small.

Simon_Jester said:
I mean, we don't really see GDI military personnel having a service pistol in the TWIII gameplay, because nobody bangs away with a pistol on the scale of RTS combat. We never see a ration tin or a latrine.

We actually do have a designation for the sidearm in looking at the lore for the Engineers and Combat Engineers. The engineers carry the GD45, which seems to be the standard service sidearm for GDI.
Unlocking in the first mission, we see this in the Intelligence Report section:

GDI Engineer
Unlocked: North Carolina Badlands, automatic

GDI combat engineers are able to capture enemy buildings and repair structures (including bridges and base buildings). Deploy an engineer into an enemy base structure in order to capture it - or send an engineer into a damaged building to fix it back up again. Damaged bridges can be repaired by deploying an engineer into the bridge auto-repair gatehouses.

Engineer Combat Primer Excerpt

- As a combat engineer, a few cardinal rules should be kept in mind at all times:

1. Never act alone in hostile territory. Your standard issue body armor is ineffective against most modern weapons.

2. You are equipped with a standard GD45 sidearm. Only use it as a last resort as it will not penetrate most modern body armor.

3. Once you gain access to an enemy structure, be sure to disable the central computer terminal immediately and install your override program to connect the structure to the nearest command post.

4. When entering a damaged structure, be sure to initiate damage control programs for immediate results. Once the automation has kicked in, you will be clear to commence more extensive repairs.

5. Keep your hard-hat on at all time.

This is more or less what I am working from. I have five games. only three of which feature any naval assets what so ever (Tiberium Dawn, Renegade, and Tiberium Wars) I also have one really garbage novel, and a half dozen shorter pieces released by EA. Of those, none suggest that GDI has ever had anything like a cruiser or frigate.
You are right that it should be there, but at the same time, I am also doing a lot of archive diving for this quest and (especially with the decisions that I made very early on when I was less confident in my ability to make things that fit) generally running right into the limits of what I can find any information at all on. And the navy decision that you are running right into was made less than a month after I started running this quest, when I was struggling with actually being able to write well enough to be worth reading.

aceraptor · Jul 12, 2021

trooperist said:
For the Navy I think the best thing to do is to finish Point Defense refits and the Hydrofoil shipyards before we move on to investing in further projects.

Point Defense is the most pressing since we currently have our piracy issue at least somewhat controlled. The biggest threat to our ships right now is a surprise missile fired from stealth. More survivability means we keep more ships alive and our naval numbers continue to climb. Of course we are going to need more navalships that a heavier than a patrol hydrofoil.

The current problem for the navy is that the GDI navy cannot project power past near shore areas. The Rapiers help but they are near shore vessels. GDI just doesn't have the hulls to do so. Also because of the sheer lead time necessary for a naval ship, even if we get the Governor done it'll get refit with the point defense by the time they get fully into active service *anyways*. So its much better to get the Governor done first.

Keep the lead time in mind. They are *not* the same for all items.

Frankly the timeline for Governors will probably look like this:

Turn #: Governor project gets done.
Turn #+?: Shipyard gets done.
Turn #+?+4 (estimate): First Governor enters active service.

There's *plenty* of time to do point defense after the cruiser design and it'll get put into the design anyways once we implement the tech.

Again to the folks in the thread: The Governor cruiser will not be put to the sea immediately. Far from it, it'll most likely take at *least* a year if not almost 2 years before the ships are in active service. More than enough time to develop the point defense system and implement them before the ships are in active service.

Thus it makes much more sense to get the design done first *then* do the point defense tech. Frankly, the first Governor wont even be done by the time we get the point defense tech anyways.

People keep on getting trapped in the mindset that stuff like Point defense has to be done before major projects like the Governor to be included into it. The fact is that the projects with long lead time should be started *first*.

Ithillid · Jul 12, 2021

aceraptor said:
People keep on getting trapped in the mindset that stuff like Point defense has to be done before major projects like the Governor. The fact is that the projects with long lead time should be started *first*.

Also, you do realize that you have the point defense tech, right? The Rapiers have a pair of point defense weapons on them. The Governors, when they get designed, will be equipped with point defense. What does not currently have point defense is your existing stocks of carriers and battleships. That is what the action is to refit.

BoSPaladin · Jul 12, 2021

[X]Plan Bospaladins first plan.
-[X]Infrastructure (5 infrastructure dice, 1 tib dice, 100 resources )
--[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) (1 dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion (1 dice, 20 resources)
--[X] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1) (1 infrastructure, 1 tib dice, 40 resources)
--[X] Rail Link Reconstruction (Phase 2) ( 1 dice, 15 resources)
-[X]Heavy industry (5 dice, 65 resources)
--[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2) (2 dice, 20 resources)
--[X] Fusion Power Prototype (1 dice, 20 resources)
--[X] Yellow Zone Power Grid Extension (Phase 3) (1 dice, 5 resources)
--[X] Union Class Construction Yard (1 dice, 20 resources)
-[X]Light and Chemical Industry (3 dice + 1 free dice, 50 resources)
--[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Personal Pharmaceuticals Plants (1 dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Johannesburg Personal Robotics Factory (1 dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors (1 dice, 10 resources)
-[X]Agriculture (3 dice + 2 free dice, 65 resources)
--[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Yellow Zone Aquaponics Bays (phase 4) (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Yellow Zone Purification Facilities (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Vertical Farming projects (Phase 2) (1 dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Entari Deployment (1 dice, 20 resources)
-[X]Tiberium (5 dice) (4 spent here, 35 resouces) (plus 1 in chicago, resource cost already accounted for)
--[X] Tiberium Prospecting Expeditions (Phase 1) (spent 3 dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 4) (spent 1 dice, 20 resources)
-[X]Orbital (3 dice) (2 Fusion Dice 45 resources)
--[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 2) (1 fusion dice, 15 resources)
--[X] GDSS Shala (Phase 1) (1 fusion dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 3) (1 dice, 15 resources)
-[X]Services (4 dice, 25 resources)
--[X] Game Development Studios (3 dice, 15 resources)
--[X] Fashion development houses (1 dice, 10 resources)
-[X]Military (5 dice, 2 free dice, 95 resources)
--[X]Reclamator Hub Yellow Zone 5a (1 dice, 20 resources)
--[X] Reclamator Fleet RZ-6 South super MARVs (1 dice, 20 resources)
--[X] Havoc Scout Mech Development (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Point Defense Refits (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Shell Plants (Phase 4) (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Railgun Munitions Development (1 dice, 10 resources)
--[X] Wingman Drone Development (1 dice, 15 resources)
-[X]Bureaucracy (3 dice)
--[X] Interdepartmental Communication Initiative (3 dice)

sunrise · Jul 12, 2021

[] Remote Weapons System Development Predator
[] Crystal Beam Laser Prototype Development
We upgraded the main guns of our tanks to railguns early in the quest so they have enough power to use one. Remote Weapons System Development Predator will develop a remote controled machine gun but that concept can also be used with a Laser instead of a machine gun i think we should do both soon as tanks are our main weapon when on the attack. The Steel Talons can put the lasers on Mechs as well so they will be happy with that research as well. Our MARV's are large enough that they can be fitted with several laser turrets.

aceraptor · Jul 12, 2021

sunrise said:
[] Remote Weapons System Development Predator
[] Crystal Beam Laser Prototype Development
We upgraded the main guns of our tanks to railguns early in the quest so they have enough power to use one. Remote Weapons System Development Predator will develop a remote controled machine gun but that concept can also be used with a Laser instead of a machine gun i think we should do both soon as tanks are our main weapon when on the attack. The Steel Talons can put the lasers on Mechs as well so they will be happy with that research as well. Our MARV's are large enough that they can be fitted with several laser turrets.

Steel Talons are not going to be happy or at least don't have undying hatred of Granger until we properly fund their projects. Projects like the laser doesn't count.

sunrise · Jul 12, 2021

BoSPaladin said:
[]Plan Bospaladins first plan.

My first recommendation is using Derpmind Probability Array(its in informational to ad the odds for the projects you are tanking) that way it is easier to compare plans and see where it can be improved.
Spreading dice to usign more dice then needed is something i support but i think you are taking it to far for example:
--[] Personal Pharmaceuticals Plants (1 dice, 15 resources)
--[] Johannesburg Personal Robotics Factory (1 dice, 15 resources)
Both need mulitple dice to complete so there is a 0% chance that a project completes this way.
-[] Personal Pharmaceuticals Plants 0/180 2 dice 30R 18%, 3 dice 45R 60%, 4 dice 60R 92%
-[] Johannesburg Personal Robotics Factory 0/250 3 dice 45R 18%, 4 dice 60R 60%, 5 dice 75R 88%, 6 dice 90R 98%
Is what the array lists for the odds for those projects so i would go with
--[] Personal Pharmaceuticals Plants (2 dice, 30 resources) as that would have a 18% odds of completing.

If you have multipe projects unable to complete in one category it often better to focus the dice so at least one of them has a chance of completing.

xpentakill · Jul 12, 2021

[X] Plan Consumer Slam
-[X] Infrastructure 5/5 dice 75R
--[X] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 1) 157/200 2 die 20R 99%
--[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 396/450 1 die 15R 74%
--[X] Fiber-Optic Expansion 105/240 2 dice 40R 55%
-[X] Heavy Industry 5/5 dice +1 free 80R
--[X] Blue Zone Power Production Campaigns (Phase 2) 345/550 4 dice 40R 89%
--[X] Fusion Power Prototype 124/200 1 die 20R 55%
--[X] Union Class Construction Yard 137/180 1 die 20R 88%
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry 3/3 dice +3 free 60R
--[X] Yellow Zone Light Industrial Sectors 173/400 4 dice 40R 74%
--[X] Bulk Plastics Facilities 126/200 2 die 20R 94%
-[X] Agriculture 3/3 dice 30R
--[X] State Operated Breweries 0/125 2 dice 20R 64%
--[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays 106/350 1 die 10R 0%
-[X] Tiberium 5/5 dice 55R
--[X] Chicago Planned City (Phase 1) 41/80 2 Tib dice 40R 100% (30% Phases 1+2)
--[X] Tiberium Prospecting Expeditions (Phase 1) 0/75 3 dice 15R 100% (73% Phases 1+2+3 if each is 0/75)
-[X] Orbital Industry 3/3 dice 55R
--[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 2) 92/180 2 dice 40R 89%
--[X] Orbital Cleanup (Phase 3) 1/90 1 die 15R 39%
-[X] Services 4/4 dice 45R
--[X] Fashion development houses 0/225 1 die 10R 0%
--[X] Ethnic Restaurant Program 0/150 2 dice 20R 68%
--[X] Durable Goods Libraries and Central Repositories 0/200 1 die 15R 0%
-[X] Military 5/5 dice +1 free 90R
--[X] Super MARV Reclaimator Fleet (RZ-6 South) 136/210 2 dice 40R 94%
--[X] Reclamator Hub Yellow Zone 5a 66/105 1 die 20R 89%
--[X] Ablat Plating Deployment (phase 1) 0/200 2 dice 20R 8%
--[X] Wolverine Mark 3 Deployment 0/150 1 die 10R 0%
-[X] Bureaucracy 3/3 dice -25 PS
--[X] Technology Codevelopment Programs DC 60 2 dice -20 PS 98%
--[X] Light and Chemical Industry Recruitment Drive DC 50 1 die -5 PS 78%

kelgar04 · Jul 12, 2021

[X] Plan Consumer Slam

trooperist · Jul 12, 2021

[X] Plan Consumer Slam

Pyro Hawk · Jul 12, 2021

Ithillid said:
Also, you do realize that you have the point defense tech, right? The Rapiers have a pair of point defense weapons on them. The Governors, when they get designed, will be equipped with point defense. What does not currently have point defense is your existing stocks of carriers and battleships. That is what the action is to refit.

So does this basically mean that if we do a Development project, but not a Roll Out of the Development, then any new design will incorporate the development from the beginning? Thus not increasing the cost of the needed refits.

Argent Citadel · Jul 12, 2021

[X] Plan Lofty Ideals

Alo357 · Jul 12, 2021

Pyro Hawk said:
So does this basically mean that if we do a Development project, but not a Roll Out of the Development, then any new design will incorporate the development from the beginning? Thus not increasing the cost of the needed refits.

Yes, anything designed or deployed after we've developed a new piece of equipment with incorporate that equipment from the start with no need to refit it. The refit is only for units already in the field. As said above, we basically have until the first Governor is completed to develop equipment to go on it at no extra cost. After that the cost will go up until it hits some sort of max value determined by the QM.

Hazard · Jul 12, 2021

Alo357 said:
Yes, anything designed or deployed after we've developed a new piece of equipment with incorporate that equipment from the start with no need to refit it. The refit is only for units already in the field. As said above, we basically have until the first Governor is completed to develop equipment to go on it at no extra cost. After that the cost will go up until it hits some sort of max value determined by the QM.

It is hilarious that you think it'll be without extra cost for newly developed equipment to be integrated in new equipment that is still in the development cycle.

It simply won't be part of a refit project, but that doesn't mean the cost of newer/better technology integrated in a new unit won't be part of it. It's just that the Treasury is unlikely to run into the cost difference.

Drahcir · Jul 12, 2021

[X] Plan Lofty Ideals

I'm not really sold on any of the leading plans. This is the one i least dislike.

Alo357 · Jul 12, 2021

Hazard said:
It is hilarious that you think it'll be without extra cost for newly developed equipment to be integrated in new equipment that is still in the development cycle.

It simply won't be part of a refit project, but that doesn't mean the cost of newer/better technology integrated in a new unit won't be part of it. It's just that the Treasury is unlikely to run into the cost difference.

You know what I mean Hazard. I'm not saying it'll be free but that the refit cost for something like a laser point defence system on our ships won't go up if we get it before the Governor is deployed.

Ithillid · Jul 12, 2021

Pyro Hawk said:
So does this basically mean that if we do a Development project, but not a Roll Out of the Development, then any new design will incorporate the development from the beginning? Thus not increasing the cost of the needed refits.

The branch has the technology, but until you do the refit projects it is not shared out, so you are not getting Tactical Point Defense systems for your fortress towns for example.
This is the same mechanic you see with the Steel Talons or ZOCOM, where they have technology for something, and the other branches don't get it until their project completes.

sunrise · Jul 12, 2021

Ithillid said:
Expand Strategic Planning Apparatus

Would this also give us the Deployment cost before we do the development?
As some military refits/factories will cost capital goods once we start on large mechs and ships it would be nice if we could plan for those costs as well.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Cinnamon Roll AI

GDI Engineer

The Paladin

Knight Watcher

Cinnamon Roll AI