Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

[masterofmadness]

Also, technically speaking it's not really clear that they ever learn how to create more alicorns.

Cadance ascended on her own. Celestia gave Twilight a nudge, but it's not exactly clear how much of that is Celestia's merit, and how much is Twilight's.

I'm STILL wondering what that spell is supposed to do. It CAN'T be a "turn into an alicorn" spell, otherwise they could now literally mass produce those...

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You know now that you mention it I am curious too. Maybe it was a sort of one time spell to a specific area? For magic/friendship in this case because friendship is literally magic in the setting? But then again Flurry heart was born to an Alicorn from a single Alicorn parent and that is supposedly new as far as the Sister are aware. And you would think that would be the first way they would try to make new Alicorns! I mean I am assuming that Celestia isn't a thousand year old virgin in canon.

... Ugh! Lore is confusing.

I mean, yes, that's the point.

I explicitly said that's what I wanted multiple times in this thread, including in the above post

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Oh I am aware and I thank you for you honesty, it is a lot more simple then having to argue about whether what were are doing is conquest while trying to say it isn't because it is conquest with extra steps. But I was responding to the idea in general which I am personally opposed to. I don't want to go too imperialistic, I think it is a losing strategy long term. But I doubt I will convince you on the matter so I won't argue fruther.

I do want to remind you guys of my idea to simply set up a treaty with Equestria ceding a small square of land as an air port for our airships. It could be used for both dignitaries in setting up regular visits between diplomats, as well as regulated imperial trade. That way trade between Equestria and the Empire remains both fast AND safe. A land route would take at least two months to-and-fro and be prone to bandit attacks as well as issues in surviving long treks through undeveloped and dangerous land. An air route takes about six days to-and-fro and should expect little-to-no attacks from anything or anyone, and would be no extra charge for us since I doubt the Yaks are going to enforce rights to their airspace at this stage.

Furthermore, while we still hold a monopoly on the designs and builds, we could even charge foreigners for the right to ferry themselves or their goods on our ships. An extension of that could a bargaining chip for any future trade or political treaty organized with the Equestrians in the future.

It would be an investment, but building up at least a small fleet of commercial airships could be well worth it for the Empire.

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Why not both?

An Airship fleet would be great in general but I doubt it could service all trade that could be desired with even Equestria alone with current tech and we can pursue both options. Airships for more high importance and the benefits mentioned ground trade to pick up the slack for bulk trade. Plus as I mentioned the ground routes through the buffalo would be useful for aiding the new Maretonia regions that need economic stimulus for rebuilding, I feel like Airship profit will mostly end up in the hands of Griffons in the heartlands with the money to invest in them comparatively.

But like I said we can do both get as much out of it as possible by pressing all out advantages.

 

[Pittauro]

You know now that you mention it I am curious too. Maybe it was a sort of one time spell to a specific area? For magic/friendship in this case because friendship is literally magic in the setting? But then again Flurry heart was born to an Alicorn from a single Alicorn parent and that is supposedly new as far as the Sister are aware. And you would think that would be the first way they would try to make new Alicorns! I mean I am assuming that Celestia isn't a thousand year old virgin in canon.

... Ugh! Lore is confusing.

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it's a children's cartoon. They just didn't think THAT much about it.

the most widely acknowledged "fanon" belief is that, to ascend, you basically need to

1)Accomplish something TRULY amazing, related to your talent
2)Have a convenient magical artifact around to jumpstart the ascension process.

For Twilight, that would be "completing a spell not even Starswirl managed to" (and no, we STILL don't know what this spell does! the incomplete version seemed to trade cutie marks AND make the subjects believe that was normal...), and the elements of harmony were the artifact.

For Cadance, from a book, she basically defeated an evil witch powered by anger with the power of love, and there was a convenient magical artifact there that powered the transformation.

About Celestia and Luna... it's never been made COMPLETELY clear if they were born alicorns or not (I think the diary of the two sisters implies so, but it's, again, extra material and NOT from the show), but whenever fan go with the "they were NOT born alicorns", they usually explain their ascendence as either the result of sun/moon raising on their own, or, alternatively, the ability of enter the dreamland for Luna, and prophetic dreams for Celestia (mostly because Celestia said Twilight became an alicorn because she made "new magic", and those might satisfy the "new magic" criteria, with Cadance somehow developing some new "love magic", and Twilight "Friendship magic").

Oh I am aware and I thank you for you honesty, it is a lot more simple then having to argue about whether what were are doing is conquest while trying to say it isn't because it is conquest with extra steps. But I was responding to the idea in general which I am personally opposed to. I don't want to go too imperialistic, I think it is a losing strategy long term. But I doubt I will convince you on the matter so I won't argue fruther.

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eh, I don't think an imperialistic strategy is necessarily bad, but we probably have better options. We're doing a fine job of being the "good guys" so far, and an imperialistic mindset risks tarnishing our reputation abroad in time.

Then again, sometime it's just worth it. See Maretonia now.

We just need a good excuse/cause to act, and justify our actions

Why not both?

An Airship fleet would be great in general but I doubt it could service all trade that could be desired with even Equestria alone with current tech and we can pursue both options. Airships for more high importance and the benefits mentioned ground trade to pick up the slack for bulk trade. Plus as I mentioned the ground routes through the buffalo would be useful for aiding the new Maretonia regions that need economic stimulus for rebuilding, I feel like Airship profit will mostly end up in the hands of Griffons in the heartlands with the money to invest in them comparatively.

But like I said we can do both get as much out of it as possible by pressing all out advantages.

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Eh, we'll ALWAYS want to pursue "both". We still need to prioritize one though, and airships are probably the fastest option to implement

 

[x0Nothing0x]

But then again Flurry heart was born to an Alicorn from a single Alicorn parent and that is supposedly new as far as the Sister are aware. And you would think that would be the first way they would try to make new Alicorns! I mean I am assuming that Celestia isn't a thousand year old virgin in canon.

... Ugh! Lore is confusing.

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well it is a kids show at the end of the day so it's not like that's going to be a detail they'll ever really focus on. Though there is some speculation that the nobles (well at least the nobles at the time of the main 6) are related to Celestia in some way. Mostly comes from blue blood calling her auntie but I don't think it has ever been confirmed if the nobles of old actually had some ancestry with her (as in she did the nasty in the pasty and had kids) and the "current" day nobles actually have a blood tie to her or if it was just title that some nobles called her out of affection, real or not.

 

[PyrrosWarrior]

I feel like Airship profit will mostly end up in the hands of Griffons in the heartlands with the money to invest in them comparatively.

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I mean, as I said in that post, the whole reason I'm advocating the airships is to benefit the state to have even more income to invest (in a state capitalist sorta way). We would own the industry, and therefore most of the money would end up going towards the state's pockets. Some of it would go towards capitalists as we do still practice an early form of capitalism (and Garrick himself is an avid supporter of free enterprise with him being a former merchant). Just pointing out that my point is that the greatest profit isn't gonna go to some random heartland Griffon. It will go to the state, and that's the point. I literally listed the fact that we won't have to pay any kind of tax or tariff the like to utilize airspace as a bonus to the policy. The yaks aren't suddenly gonna be any more grateful if we start a trade route through their country. Why should I care about ensuring they profit from the route?

I care about the Empire first and foremost. I wouldn't go so far as to paraphrase de Gaulle by saying the Empire has only interests and no friends, but every other country is definitely a tertiary concern to the prosperity and self-benefit of our empire.

We just need a good excuse/cause to act, and justify our actions

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Abolitionism has been noted to be culturally relevant and integrated into the greater Gryphonian proto-national culture. The yetis are slavers. Seems pretty straightforward.

Not exactly advocating going on a conquest spree. If you look through my posts in this thread for the past many years, I've consistently advocated a process of realpolitik for the consolidation of power in the hands of the Empire and a division of the world into multi-polar spheres of influence. Every act should be done with a casus belli. The issue is that you guys are far more recalcitrant towards what qualifies as a casus belli, as demonstrated by the fact that even now some of you guys still somehow believed that the world would see us as mass warmongers for intervening against a xenophobic, glory-hound warlord whom has shown no qualms about destroying his own country and would just as likely do it to others.

My preferred policy is in direct opposition to the "friendship, ponies and rainbows" policy that some of you guys want where we only work to make everyone better and happier...which is just kinda boring and bog-standard SV stuff. The Gryphonian Empire is NOT some kinda empire of heroes. Its only heroic trait is the abolitionism that was pushed into its developing culture through the former country of slaves that's been integrated. Every war we've been in so far has been acts of self-interest, not the empire legitimately trying to "save the world" or whatever. That's you guys moralizing from a meta-perspective, not how even Garrick sees it from an in-universe perspective.

You say you don't want imperialism. It should be noted "empire-builder" is in the tags, "Empire Quest" is in the title, and the rest of the title is "Who Needs Harmony?" in a rejection of the whole friendship being the best thing ever of the source material.

 

[Star]

I mean, as I said in that post, the whole reason I'm advocating the airships is to benefit the state to have even more income to invest (in a state capitalist sorta way). We would own the industry, and therefore most of the money would end up going towards the state's pockets. Some of it would go towards capitalists as we do still practice an early form of capitalism (and Garrick himself is an avid supporter of free enterprise with him being a former merchant). Just pointing out that my point is that the greatest profit isn't gonna go to some random heartland Griffon. It will go to the state, and that's the point. I literally listed the fact that we won't have to pay any kind of tax or tariff the like to utilize airspace as a bonus to the policy. The yaks aren't suddenly gonna be any more grateful if we start a trade route through their country. Why should I care about ensuring they profit from the route?

I care about the Empire first and foremost. I wouldn't go so far as to paraphrase de Gaulle by saying the Empire has only interests and no friends, but every other country is definitely a tertiary concern to the prosperity and self-benefit of our empire.

Abolitionism has been noted to be culturally relevant and integrated into the greater Gryphonian proto-national culture. The yetis are slavers. Seems pretty straightforward.

Not exactly advocating going on a conquest spree. If you look through my posts in this thread for the past many years, I've consistently advocated a process of realpolitik for the consolidation of power in the hands of the Empire and a division of the world into multi-polar spheres of influence. Every act should be done with a casus belli. The issue is that you guys are far more recalcitrant towards what qualifies as a casus belli, as demonstrated by the fact that even now some of you guys still somehow believed that the world would see us as mass warmongers for intervening against a xenophobic, glory-hound warlord whom has shown no qualms about destroying his own country and would just as likely do it to others.

My preferred policy is in direct opposition to the "friendship, ponies and rainbows" policy that some of you guys want where we only work to make everyone better and happier...which is just kinda boring and bog-standard SV stuff. The Gryphonian Empire is NOT some kinda empire of heroes. Its only heroic trait is the abolitionism that was pushed into its developing culture through the former country of slaves that's been integrated. Every war we've been in so far has been acts of self-interest, not the empire legitimately trying to "save the world" or whatever. That's you guys moralizing from a meta-perspective, not how even Garrick sees it from an in-universe perspective.

You say you don't want imperialism. It should be noted "empire-builder" is in the tags, "Empire Quest" is in the title, and the rest of the title is "Who Needs Harmony?" in a rejection of the whole friendship being the best thing ever of the source material.

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I'm fine with interventing with Yetis, but i don't want it to be on pretext of they are slavers so let's crush them, that in my opinion takes more ideological route towards intervention, once casus belli becomes ideological we will find ourselves spiraling towards world policeman route fighting a wars far beyond our borders that cost more than they are worth, something i will oppose at every corner.

For example even when Maretonia took our citizens, we didn't declare war, we did intrigue action to save our citizens paired with diplomatic channels, it's a type of sane real politic that pays itself back and is the type of invest only how much you need to invest and that was at our borders.

Regarding Yetis, i personally don't plan any military expeditions there and when it comes to intrigue they take secondary place to changelings atm ,that doesn't mean i don't mind finding about them and passing the info to their neighbors/countries that are friendly to us like Equestria and Yaks.

Which really is in my opinion right course of action here, Yaks and Equestria are two sovereign nations that border Yetis and we have nothing to search there so far beyond our borders. What we can do there is provide support to our allies in dealing with them ( of course military intervention isn't out of question, but not Griffon lead one, that is Equestrian/Yakistan decision , we can join to secure our interests there down the line if there's trouble).

Edit:
Basically being opposed to intervention isn't just out of fear to be seen as warmonger by the world, it's for domestic reasons as well, these wars often cost far more than they are worth both financially and in blood so i find it better to ban our citizens from the area and sit by sidelines on this one. Any trade , or other benefit can found somewhere else in the world more peacefully and if there is regime change in the Yetis by let's say Yak hoof we can once again secure our interests diplomatically via aid and support .

 

[FictionPack]

Here's a thought.
We could subtly push Equestria into war with the yetis for what happened to their expedition.

From there we can profit from their war in any number of ways. Not exactly a morally good plan, but it is viable.

 

[Star]

Here's a thought.
We could subtly push Equestria into war with the yetis for what happened to their expedition.

From there we can profit from their war in any number of ways. Not exactly a morally good plan, but it is viable.

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Nah, it's to risky as it runs the risk of being found out and ruining our relationship with Equestria.

Once again this isn't really a problem that concerns us directly, just find something about them via intelligence , set couple of agents there for the future and let the Yaks/ Equestria deal with it as they see fit while we focus on other things.

If things get hot we provide intelligence and financial support in exchange for securing our interests and help to Yetis in any post war rebuilding (once again in exchange for influence).

 

[AthetosAdmech]

...yeah no, I am not waiting for these nutjobs to actually *act* on their nihilistic, misanthropic and fringe-racist rhetorics, thank you very much.

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I was of the same opinion until Questor outright told us that their beliefs aren't like the imperial cult from Warhammer despite the resemblance. From what he's told us the Imperial cult in this game don't worship the emperor so much as venerate him as an example to follow. Kinda like how Buddhists view Buddha in real life. I understand your misgivings about them but Questor has outright told us that they were not the cult of personality we feared they would be.

I still don't think we should invest in them though simply because investing in other religions that we've already spent actions on might give greater rewards.

 

[Whenyouseeyou]

I just want to do the book thing for the cults and that's it so they won't be too disorganized

 

[jonasquinn]

Sorry, but at least to me it doesn´t look like a joke at all. (And even if it is, repeating it every time that topic comes up doesn´t help - *mighty hypocritical of me to say*, I know)

Tbh, you seem to genuinely hate the very existence of both the Yaks and people like them like the Buffalos and be intent to wipe them off the face of the globe while citing "manifest destiny" (which is just cultural egotism and racism with a fancy paintjob - at least in RL it was that way)

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Okay that is an enormous exaggeration

While I do find the Yaks annoyingly stubborn and our least useful ally I have never once expressed a distaste for their culture or anything close to a desire to "wipe them off the face of the globe"

My one or two comments about the Buffaloes were purely me playing up the meme of my dislike of the Yaks when in reality I have absolutely no strong feelings about them because we haven't met them yet and my manifest destiny jokes are all aimed at Storm Country not the Yaks

I will not pretend that I am utterly blameless in that regard - my seething hatred for those Imperial Cult nutjobs (sorry, but they won´t ever be anything else to me with their lowkey-misanthropic and nihilistic agenda) comes to mind - but at least I don´t *joke* about it.

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That's the major difference though, you genuinely hate the Imperial Cult for absolutely no reason beyond your own blind bias and in direct opposition to every scrap of information we have about them and oppose any plan that involves them

Whereas I mildly dislike the Yaks for things they've actually done and play it up as, what most people recognise to be, a joke and don't oppose plans that involve them unless I genuinely believe our time would be better spent elsewhere

They not only supply a very valuable and rare resource, but they also act as a barrier to a hostile force. So I have to disagree.

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What I would say to that is that they have one source of that resource that we already have access to and regardless of our relationship with them they would still be a buffer state

Don't get me wrong, they're a useful ally to have it's just my opinion that they're the least useful one

Also, personally, I don't think it would have been a good idea, or even really feasible to try to integrate them. Especially when they were still nomadic. The dogs were already within our borders and suffering from a plague, and the crystal ponies were magically enslaved. The Yaks were and are just fine by themselves without us.
Besides, we do have a few yak citizens and can easily get more with the immigration policy if we want.

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That's a fair point and you're probably right

...yeah no, I am not waiting for these nutjobs to actually *act* on their nihilistic, misanthropic and fringe-racist rhetorics, thank you very much.

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Okay, how can you genuinely criticise my half-joking anti-Yak comments and then turn around and say stuff like this?

Like, at least I complain about the Yaks for stuff they actually do but you just hate the strange twisted version of the Imperial Cult that only exists in your head

By your logic I could claim that the Yaks are a bunch of slaving, cannibalistic lizard people that we should kill on sight and nobody could tell me otherwise

Just how I am reading their whole spiel about "The Royal Family *must be Gods*, since no mere mortal could be that great"

Greatness being a divine attribute just pisses me off for how much it indirectly paints normal people as inherently more shitty in comparison...and because of that I just don´t like the Cult.

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How about the fact that that's not what the Cult believes?

The Imperial Cult doesn't worship Garrick as a literal deity but rather they see him as the pinnacle of what all Griffonkind, and others, should strive to be like

You're literally claiming that the religion that preaches "We should all be as kind, welcoming and open minded as the Emperor" are secretly racist bigots

Probably more than a little discriminatory admittedly, but at least I am not framing it as a "joke".

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Once more here's the difference, I don't "frame my statements as a joke" they genuinely are jokes

Are they jokes based on a played up version of my mild dislike of the Yaks? Of course. But I don't let that dislike blind me from the facts nor unduly colour my view of what the best actions to take are unlike you with the Cult

I still don't think we should invest in them though simply because investing in other religions that we've already spent actions on might give greater rewards.

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The issue with that is that we've specifically framed ourselves as being open to and accepting of all religions, if we just keep pushing the religions we already have in the pursuit of better rewards we'll almost inevitably end up creating unofficial state religions as well as fringe ones that feel marginalised

It's just better to treat them equally and ensure none of them feel left out

 

[PyrrosWarrior]

The issue with that is that we've specifically framed ourselves as being open to and accepting of all religions, if we just keep pushing the religions we already have in the pursuit of better rewards we'll almost inevitably end up creating unofficial state religions as well as fringe ones that feel marginalised

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Glad SOMEONE finally shares this view. -_-

That's literally what I've been saying this whole time against the people who keep advocating going all out with the Crystal Heart and not bothering to balance out the other religions.

Nah, it's to risky as it runs the risk of being found out and ruining our relationship with Equestria.

Once again this isn't really a problem that concerns us directly, just find something about them via intelligence , set couple of agents there for the future and let the Yaks/ Equestria deal with it as they see fit while we focus on other things.

If things get hot we provide intelligence and financial support in exchange for securing our interests and help to Yetis in any post war rebuilding (once again in exchange for influence).

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Um no, more land is good for us, especially when that land probably has good investments in materials. I'm not interested in boosting Equestria when they're already large and varied enough to have natural advantages to challenge our hegemony without even trying. That land would be an investment. I already told you I'm not interested in ideologically charged warfare but rather a policy of realpolitik, yet for some reason you took that as an advocacy for being the abolitionist police. A casus belli is a plausible reason to go to war. Nothing less. Nothing more. We have a populace that is militarized enough that they are willing to accept warfare if we have a casus belli.

Therefore, we take advantage of that when we can to advance our own power. The Yaks are neutrals and the Equestrians are a threat to our hegemony. Not interested in empowering the Yaks without a hefty price tag, and not interested in empowering the Equestrians ever. The only people worth empowering without a hefty price tag are close allies whom have differing spheres of interests (such as Neighpon), and our protectorates and colonies.

Some vaguely defined "influence" over the Yaks is irrelevant when they'd never submit to being a puppet state or protectorate at this stage. Their identity is already too formed (though obviously isn't complete yet), and their people too prideful and stubborn to accept bowing to others when not forced to. As we very clearly aren't and shouldn't go to war to force such a situation upon them, all we can do is minimize their importance.

I was of the same opinion until Questor outright told us that their beliefs aren't like the imperial cult from Warhammer despite the resemblance. From what he's told us the Imperial cult in this game don't worship the emperor so much as venerate him as an example to follow. Kinda like how Buddhists view Buddha in real life. I understand your misgivings about them but Questor has outright told us that they were not the cult of personality we feared they would be.

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I mean, I also mentioned multiple times even before Questor confirmed it that the Imperial Cult likely wasn't like that. I listed off multiple historical examples of imperial cults - none of which worked like that Warhammer bit - and yet both meme supporters and regular detractors of the Imperial Cult just kept ignoring it and referencing Warhammer. It got annoying really fast.

 

[jonasquinn]

Glad SOMEONE finally shares this view. -_-

That's literally what I've been saying this whole time against the people who keep advocating going all out with the Crystal Heart and not bothering to balance out the other religions.

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To be fair I don't think we're near that stage yet since our primary focus has been on Crystal Worship and with all the shit the Crystal Ponies have been through I doubt anyone will begrudge us
on boosting their spirits with that

And from a more utilitarian viewpoint they're the ones with the magic glowing rock that killed Sombra and we have no idea how it works

That being said at this point I believe the only religions we haven't invested in at all are Spiritualism and the Cult so I think we should spend a couple of turns on them, and Pantheism to a lesser extent, to get them all about equal and then just cycle through them

EDIT: Though now that I think about it we might have an issue in that we can't invest in the Church of the Lady of the Lakes, for good reason, but only we know why so there might be some worshippers of that religion that feel stigmatised

Though thankfully that was a minority religion even before we learned the truth and as the others grow larger it should shrink

 

[weeblypanda]

Question what is our demographic split

also how old are the Hippogryphs (are there any old enough to serve as friends for our kids or in the army as hero units)

 

[jonasquinn]

Question what is our demographic split

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Do you mean religion wise or species?

For the former you can get a vague idea from the state of the nation info post

For the latter you'd have to ask @Questor though I would hazard a guess with Griffon's being the largest, if not the majority, followed by Diamond Dogs, Crystal Ponies and then Hippogriffs though they're probably a fast growing minority since there's at least four pairings that result in one

also how old are the Hippogryphs (are there any old enough to serve as friends for our kids or in the army as hero units)

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For the former I'd say yes though maybe only for Pearl and Gilda, and the issue there is there are any Hippogriffs of a high enough status to be their friend, for the latter I'd say probably not and if there are they're probably only just of enlisting age

 

[weeblypanda]

Was wondering if their magic is dependent on their pony parent or is it a person by person basis
also just like the idea of 1 being close to the fam and eventually gaining renown for the youngest of the races

 

[jonasquinn]

Was wondering if their magic is dependent on their pony parent or is it a person by person basis
also just like the idea of 1 being close to the fam and eventually gaining renown for the youngest of the races

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I don't think their magic would depend on their parent since I don't think that's how it works among ponies but I'm not sure

As for one becoming friends with our kids it's possible, Pearl does spend a lot of time in the Crystal City and is the only member of her family who uses magic and Gilda's personal actions is about her starting a proper tournament for young warriors so she might meet one there

 

[AthetosAdmech]

To be fair I don't think we're near that stage yet since our primary focus has been on Crystal Worship and with all the shit the Crystal Ponies have been through I doubt anyone will begrudge us
on boosting their spirits with that

And from a more utilitarian viewpoint they're the ones with the magic glowing rock that killed Sombra and we have no idea how it works

That being said at this point I believe the only religions we haven't invested in at all are Spiritualism and the Cult so I think we should spend a couple of turns on them, and Pantheism to a lesser extent, to get them all about equal and then just cycle through them

EDIT: Though now that I think about it we might have an issue in that we can't invest in the Church of the Lady of the Lakes, for good reason, but only we know why so there might be some worshippers of that religion that feel stigmatised

Though thankfully that was a minority religion even before we learned the truth and as the others grow larger it should shrink

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I would be ok with cycling through Quilin Spiritualism, Yak Shamanism, Crystal Heart worship, and Gryphon Polytheism. Focus on first three can be explained as us trying to strengthen ties with our allies by showing respect and admiration for their cultures. The lady of the Lakes cult is excluded from state support because we aren't as close allies with Canterlot (at least that's what we'll say in public). The later can be explained as us prioritizing recovering the culture of our ancestors (who most of the population already venerated prior to any organized religions becoming known to us) which the Imperial Cultists will go along with because it's the emperor's example they wish to follow anyway.

Lack of state support doesn't mean those other two religions are banned or suppressed in any way. So far it seems like they are just expected to fund and do everything themselves. When the Imperial Cult printed their holy books after several turns of us ignoring them they proved that it's possible for religious groups to get things done without our help. It's just more difficult and probably takes much longer to happen because of that.

 

[jonasquinn]

I would be ok with cycling through Quilin Spiritualism, Yak Shamanism, Crystal Heart worship, and Gryphon Polytheism. Focus on first three can be explained as us trying to strengthen ties with our allies by showing respect and admiration for their cultures. The lady of the Lakes cult is excluded from state support because we aren't as close allies with Canterlot (at least that's what we'll say in public). The later can be explained as us prioritizing recovering the culture of our ancestors (who most of the population already venerated prior to any organized religions becoming known to us) which the Imperial Cultists will go along with because it's the emperor's example they wish to follow anyway.

Lack of state support doesn't mean those other two religions are banned or suppressed in any way. So far it seems like they are just expected to fund and do everything themselves. When the Imperial Cult printed their holy books after several turns of us ignoring them they proved that it's possible for religious groups to get things done without our help. It's just more difficult and probably takes much longer to happen because of that.

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The issue is there's no reason not to support the Cult and in fact doing so is almost certainly in our best interests not just for the bonuses but also because the longer you leave a group operating in your name without belong to guide it the more likely it becomes that they do something you don't agree with in your name as well

As for not supporting a religion not being the same as suppressing it, when you're supporting almost every other religion in some way it basically is because it sends a big sign to anyone laying attention that says "For whatever reason the government does not approve of this religion"

By the way @masterofmadness it just occurred to me that you might want to ping Questor to make sure he saw your negaverse omake

 

[masterofmadness]

By the way @masterofmadness it just occurred to me that you might want to ping Questot to make sure he saw your negaverse omake

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I actually sent him a copy of my Omake before I posted it to check if it was alright so he knew about it before I even posted. I don't know why he hasn't threadmarked it yet.

 

[jonasquinn]

I actually sent him a copy of my Omake before I posted it to check if it was alright so he knew about it before I even posted. I don't know why he hasn't threadmarked it yet.

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Ah fair enough, he's probably just busy

 

[TheGleeman]

How about the fact that that's not what the Cult believes?

The Imperial Cult doesn't worship Garrick as a literal deity but rather they see him as the pinnacle of what all Griffonkind, and others, should strive to be like

You're literally claiming that the religion that preaches "We should all be as kind, welcoming and open minded as the Emperor" are secretly racist bigots

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That still makes them idiotic fan-boys/girls that utterly disregard our personal past (responsible for our actions at least in some form) and that think that aping celebrities is the way to go (even if the particular celeb in question is of the more acceptable sort)

Sry, but I just don´t like them for how uncomfortable they make me feel.

 

[jonasquinn]

That still makes them idiotic fan-boys/girls that utterly disregard our personal past (responsible for our actions at least in some form) and that think that aping celebrities is the way to go (even if the particular celeb in question is of the more acceptable sort)

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Not really, it makes them people who were inspired by someone and chose to try and live their lives in a similar way as that person

By your logic Christians and Buddhists are all just a bunch of sycophants that choose to copy Jesus and Buddha respectively

Sry, but I just don´t like them for how uncomfortable they make me feel.

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Fair enough, to each their own

But I'm just letting you know that isn't a very convincing argument and I fully plan to push for the Cult Piety action next turn

 

[FictionPack]

Sry, but I just don´t like them for how uncomfortable they make me feel.

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And what about the ponies that deify Luna and Celestia?

 

[TheGleeman]

Not really, it makes them people who were inspired by someone and chose to try and live their lives in a similar way as that person

By your logic Christians and Buddhists are all just a bunch of sycophants that choose to copy Jesus and Buddha respectively

Fair enough, to each their own

But I'm just letting you know that isn't a very convincing argument and I fully plan to push for the Cult Piety action next turn

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Well, Christians to me are people who try to find meaning in a world that factually is meaningless by turning to some millenia-old scribblings that are a contradictionary and hypocritical mess, considering how dickish the supposedly "benign" LORD tends to act and how often the book was translated/rewritten over time - not the best way to spend your life imho.

I don´t know enough Buddhism to be sure, although its insistence that existence is torturous re-occurence and only becoming an empty shell can bring blissful non-existence annoys me quite a bit.

And what about the ponies that deify Luna and Celestia?

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Those make the mares themselves uncomfortable in-universe.

Also, Alicorns are quite literally a different breed entirely - or can *a single "mortal" unicorn* do the stuff they do? Nope, they genuinely ARE "quasi-divine" and it´s a testament to their moral fortitude that that hasn´t gone to their heads already (Lunas stint as NMM was more about feeling insignificant and shunned *compared to her sister* rather than her going Khan Noonien Singh outta arrogance)

Garrick on the other hand is just another Gryph that simply hat the descendancy and luck/skill to make more outta himself - comparing him to Celestia or Luna would be the same as comparing a stage-magician fumbling around with cards with friggin Merlin (*our* Merlin, that is)

So yeah, not a fair comparison at all.

 

[Pittauro]

Glad SOMEONE finally shares this view. -_-

That's literally what I've been saying this whole time against the people who keep advocating going all out with the Crystal Heart and not bothering to balance out the other religions.

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eh, being accepting of all religion doesn't necessarily mean that you're not allowed to favour one more than other. It HAS to mean you'll not allow any of them, or inconvenience their followers, without a VERY good reason, though.

I'd be perfectly fine favouring one religion over the others, as long as all of them get a minimum acknowledgement. The first action, for example, is basically the action needed for the religion to actually spread, and It's in many way a mark of approval by the government (for example it's about the first shrine).

EDIT: Though now that I think about it we might have an issue in that we can't invest in the Church of the Lady of the Lakes, for good reason, but only we know why so there might be some worshippers of that religion that feel stigmatised

Though thankfully that was a minority religion even before we learned the truth and as the others grow larger it should shrink

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eh, worst case we have a simple excuse to not invest in them: they're a religion directly commanded by a foreign leader, which makes it potentially dangerous EVEN when you're not considering the changelings.

I would be ok with cycling through Quilin Spiritualism, Yak Shamanism, Crystal Heart worship, and Gryphon Polytheism. Focus on first three can be explained as us trying to strengthen ties with our allies by showing respect and admiration for their cultures. The lady of the Lakes cult is excluded from state support because we aren't as close allies with Canterlot (at least that's what we'll say in public). The later can be explained as us prioritizing recovering the culture of our ancestors (who most of the population already venerated prior to any organized religions becoming known to us) which the Imperial Cultists will go along with because it's the emperor's example they wish to follow anyway.

Lack of state support doesn't mean those other two religions are banned or suppressed in any way. So far it seems like they are just expected to fund and do everything themselves. When the Imperial Cult printed their holy books after several turns of us ignoring them they proved that it's possible for religious groups to get things done without our help. It's just more difficult and probably takes much longer to happen because of that.

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The Imperial cult is probably the hardest to anger group. I mean, if their emperor does not "openly" support them, but does not stop them, they'll probably take it either as "he doesn't want to favour them out of humbleness" or "it's a test".

That said, I DO want to throw them an action every now and then. Not sure how many, or how often, but at least I don't want to ignore them completely.

Generally speaking, I want a minimum of investment in Quilin/Yak religions, at least enough to make them actually viable, as a show of respect to our allies (that's really what the "first shrine" action is about, after all), but I see no reason to support them as much as the other ones.

Crystal Religion IS, if not the official gryphus religion, at least the official one of the protectorate, and we had PROOF of the importance/value of the Crystal Heart that we didn't have from any of the other religions.

I don't have much interest for the ancient gryphus religion, but I'm not necessarily against it either. The nature of the following actions in the religion's chains might nudge me to favour one religion over the other anyway.