Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

[masterofmadness]

Have actually put some thought into the Empire potentially becoming a more representative and/or democratic nation at some point in the future, and what that might look like. Had you started in the Age of Harmony that would have been a lot more of a pressing concern.

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I will be honest I like that idea as a potential element in a sequel quest.

Though I will say I don't think it has a place in this quest, however progressive and quickly advancing we are still only 30 years off from a time of division where the laws of physics were literally used for comedy. In that time we have done a lot to build up our and in the process we have made a highly centralized imperial monarchy look like a pretty good system even if we have a rather higher amount of social mobility then you usually have in that system.

 

[Star]

I agree really, at the moment we are doing quite fine , if you look at our social circumstances due to winter war nobility and commoners became closer and nobility is far more receptive towards nouveau riche of our society and commoners are able to advance through imperial bureaucracy/military . Also there was no conflict between nobility and the crown when it came towards centralization of authority, partially due to Garrick being so popular and partially due to Duke of Wingbardy ( second strongest noble in the empire) saw that his daughter was uninterested in his heritage and understood that his position and holdings could represent threat to the Empire and the Crown and signed off his possession away effectively ending feudalism in the empire as we moved from that moment to absolute monarchy.

Also i believe that our social mobility won't cause the move towards democracy , on countrary , it will actually preserve influence of the crown and current system and potentially integrate democracy in our absolutist machine.

Now how could this happen? Well we all know crystal protectorate is democratic to some level and once it integrates i doubt those provinces that were once protectorate will change their system of governance, they will probably keep their democratic elements and have democratic leaders swear fealty towards crown .

And that is what I thought about democracy being on local level in the Empire , basically what I imagine will happen is that various cities and provinces will probably have democratic systems (similar to merchant republics ), but will swear fealty towards the crown and institutions on the state level will probably stay under imperial control beholden to the Emperor with various elected officials communicating with imperial administration about the will of the people.

That is how I imagine our democracy to be as i really don't see the reason why Gryphus society would challenge the authority of the crown by limiting it's power instead of chosing to integrate in curren system.

I mean if we look at Equestria they managed to preserve absolutist monarchy till the end of it the show.

 

[SadSack]

That was mainly because of Celestia being an exemplar of a wise, compassionate and all-around amazing monarch and person, while also being an immortal and so able to continue to be awesome forever.

 

[Star]

That was mainly because Celestia being an exemplar of a wise, compassionate and all-around amazing monarch and person, while also being an immortal and so able to continue to be awesome forever.

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I mean our imperial family also has quite a cult behind them and monarchy is loved by the people . Also we need to take in a possibility that one of our heirs could potentially be a hippogriff giving them access to magic and quite potentially further accessions , not to mention that adopted members of our family already have access to magic and our Dragon daughter having quite a long lifespan which will give imperial family quite a presence and oversight across the ages .

 

[SadSack]

I mean our imperial family also has quite a cult behind them and monarchy is loved by the people.

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The current royal family is great, but there's also no guarantee that one of our descendants won't turn out to be an evil monster. I'm not suggesting we suddenly transition into a democracy, but something like the Bill of Rights and Parliament/Reichstag would be a stop in the right direction.

 

[masterofmadness]

I mean if we look at Equestria they managed to preserve absolutist monarchy till the end of it the show.

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That was mainly because Celestia being an exemplar of a wise, compassionate and all-around amazing monarch and person, while also being an immortal and so able to continue to be awesome forever.

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This is a little bit of a head canon but I think part of that might be that I don't think Equestria has much of a government.

I mean currently in quest is appear that Equestria is still largely feudal with the Sisters having mostly diplomatically pulled all the divide nobles of various stripes back under control but that seems to imply that most of the nobles were left alone to their own devices to do largely as they did before locally. Unlike us they don't seem to really have much that really needs them to have a large government. Their army is a Royal Knightly about the size of one of ours for a military that really only acts to defeat the occasional monster the local can't deal with and they aren't doing very much in the way of industrialization. They don't really need the governmental infrastructure to deal with a large national army or the products of an industrializing economy. They never had to manage to enact major rebuilding program for the whole crystal empire or even deal with foreign diplomacy until recently.

So while I think it is safe to say they have minimal government now at least. I do think you could make an argument that it also stay relatively small even if their is some supposition, like the QM says I don't Equestria doesn't really seem to be very big ever on industrialization save a few railroad and the majority of problems seem to be dealt with locally. So I think even if it got bigger overtime they never really got a government of a size comparable to what we probably have now and it is easier to stay a stable monarchy when the monarchy is doing relatively little.

In regards to the Empire's system of education, yes, public schools do exist, though by the standards of a First-World Modern Day Earth they're pretty bare-bones. Their purpose is to teach literacy and numeracy, along with a basic understanding of history (mostly of the Post-Discord variety). They were created early in the Quest to combat the widespread illiteracy that was preventing you from unlocking another Learning Action.

Privately operated Schools and Personal Tutors are also common, especially amongst the wealthier burghers, and are practically ubiquitous amongst the Nobility.

More advanced subjects such as the arts and hard sciences are relegated to the Universities, and no the Crystal University is not the only institute of higher learning in the Empire, it's simply the newest, largest and most famous. Other, smaller schools are present in Griffonia, Wingbardy, Aquileia, and a few of the former City-States of the Feathersian League.

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Also am I the only one who read this and now wants to expand the education system?

Not right now of course since we have a lot to do but maybe somewhere down the line. Though I do think we might need to think about expanding education in Maretonian protectorate if we win here. I'm not sure how much other then magic the College did in Maretonia but they are scattered now so high education could probably use some rebuild overall and building some new ones would be a fine step for improving the condition of our new population. Plus some public schooling their would probably be welcome and increase integration with the rest of the Empire as well.

I wonder what the Princesses would think of our education efforts too? I mean if nothing else it is one of the few things that we do that doesn't really run up against our culture differences too much. I imagine they would agree on the value of education too, I could see them trying to copy us to set up their if only because we are the only established model. Though honesty all of this is just me stalling till the next update so don't put too much stock in it.

 

[Star]

The current royal family is great, but there's also no guarantee that one of our descendants won't turn out to be an evil monster. I'm not suggesting we suddenly transition into a democracy, but something like the Bill of Rights and Parliament/Reichstag would be a stop in the right direction.

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Eh depends what is defined as right direction, democracy for better and worse doesn't mean that our empire won't commit monstrous deeds, for example France and British colonial empires were in one way , or another democracies. I believe problem you want to address are values and state apparatus.

As our Empire grows and becomes more complicated Emperor won't be the only one running the show , he will have advisor and other people of influence and even autocrats have people to answer to, especially if we allow local democracy , then everyone more or less will have a stake , plus there is law of succession to prevent unsuitable heirs to take the throne as well as other members of imperial family.

Ultimately my point is that for now i don't see the reason , or social elements that justify the need for the Emperor to limit his power , heck even if work is to much he can just appoint councilor, or other members of imperial family to do the job for him.

 

[Themarineguy]

Eh depends what is defined as right direction, democracy for better and worse doesn't mean that our empire won't commit monstrous deeds , for example France and British colonial empires were in one way , or another democracies. I believe problem you want to address are values and state apparatus.

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And with the right machinations of a charismatic schemer, it could be used to thrust someone into a position of total power, such as Hitler, or Palpatine.

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[SadSack]

Eh depends on what is defined as the right direction, democracy for better and worse doesn't mean that our empire won't commit monstrous deeds, for example, France and British colonial empires were in one way, or other democracies. I believe the problems you want to address are values and state apparatus.

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I mean, while France and Britain remained shit to foreigners and minorities, democracy was a step up for non-minority citizens (albeit, after it was expanded to them). Due to Griffonia being ridiculously liberal when it comes to other species, we probably don't need to worry about civil rights being restricted to non-Griffons.

 

[Star]

I mean, while France and Britain remained shit to foreigners and minorities, democracy was a step up for non-minority citizens (albeit, after it was expanded to them). Due to Griffonia being ridiculously liberal when it comes to other species, we probably don't need to worry about civil rights being restricted to non-Griffons.

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After lot of hard work, same level of hard work that can be put into improving already existing system that is proving itself to work.

Edit: Though as you said we don't have many problems in regard to minority rights, if anything we don't have minorities as everyone are treated as subjects of the Crown and are viewed as Gryphonians.

As for poorer subject's, well wealth gap is a thing in democracies as well and empire is working towards closing that gap and rising living standards, we have laws in place to prevent abuse of our citizens and everyone have a chance to rise to prominence.

 

[Awooo of Awon]

Honestly, I doubt our character wants to be emperor forever, and immortality is a bit of a sad fate when one is alone. So I say screw aligryphon Garrick and go for mass immortality for everyone. We know it's possible due to the presence of the alicorns after all.

 

[FictionPack]

Immortality often leads to stagnation.

 

[ninjakirito6]

Look, personally I don't think we will transition to a democratic ever. Our people and citizens quite literally I think we are the best thing to ever walk the earth if you look at our popularity tab, and for the arguments where they will want to have more power themselves and last in the throne I don't think that will happen because as described earlier they think we are the best thing to ever walk the earth.

And for the belief that eventually down the line one of our descendants but turn out to be an evil jerk, why would they, why would they turn evil? Remember, this is a quest we have control over what are character does meaning that we would not turn evil and that we can push or guide any future heirs to the throne to not be evil so I think saying we will become a democracy eventually because X reasons will happen guaranteed is a little disingenuous.

 

[Crow gotta eat]

Any democratic institution I forsee us having would at best be a council styled government which is there to bring up issues with some members being democratically elected to bring up issues in their region specifically, but us still having the final word. Basically like how the Council of Faiths is except instead it is for regions of the Empire, with some members being democratically elected or some being nobility or whatever, however the region decides their representatives.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

I'm genuinely confused why anyone would want Gryphus to become a democracy. Have you guys forgotten that this is a CK2 style game where we control a monarch? Isn't losing the throne game over?

 

[FictionPack]

I'm genuinely confused why anyone would want Gryphus to become a democracy. Have you guys forgotten that this is a CK2 style game where we control a monarch? Isn't losing the throne game over?

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I guess technically we would control the elected official, but they'd change every few rounds, and it just doesn't fit. Would kinda be a kick to Gawain.

So I agree.
None of the citizens would even want it, Garrick would always win.

 

[TheGleeman]

I´d say that the "best" we could manage in terms of democracy without abdicating the throne would be an inverted version of the UKs system - meaning while parties and a parliament exist and genuinely are exerting some non-conservative influence, at the end of the day our Royal Family would still be firmly in control.

Also, I too am a bit confused about where this democratic push is coming from in the thread and where it would come from in-universe, considering the fact that the Goldenfeather line is doing so good a job at governing that some particularly unhinged subjects are outright deifying us - *and we don´t even have Lulu´s and Tia´s godlike powers to back up that fame*

Us going democratic is just not needed in-universe...and whether it will be so in the future is actually our decision to make.

 

[TheLordofAwesome]

I´d say that the "best" we could manage in terms of democracy without abdicating the throne would be an inverted version of the UKs system - meaning while parties and a parliament exist and genuinely are exerting some non-conservative influence, at the end of the day our Royal Family would still be firmly in control.

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So... not an inverse version of the UK's system? 'Cause, despite what you might think the Queen of England actually has a lot of power. No law can be passed without her signing off on it, she has the unilateral authority to declare war and launch a nuke, and at any moment can just completely dissolve parliament. Not to mention the rest of the royal family are given position of power in the UK's military.

 

[Pittauro]

Generally speaking on CK2 there's this belief that democracy is inevitable and always a net positive, even in a fantasy world. (only as long as we still get to plan without limits though. Realistically a TRULY democratic system would mean we'd also get limitation on what we can vote, or that we'd need support to pass some measures, or maybe even that some actions are basically decided for us!

Basically, quest players often want the "feels good" from having a democracy, while still planning and voting like we were running a tiranny)

That's not true. I'd say that, maybe even in real life, a moral/good dictator is actually the better option.

The problem in real life would be that You can never be completely sure that the would-be-dictator is actually a good person, or that he won't go too far, and, even if by some miracle you get a competent, wise, incorruptible ruler... sooner or later he'll die, and it's rare for the transition to a new ruler to be peaceful and smooth.

A secondary problem is that, usually, the best people to be given this kind of power are not really the ones who would pursue it themselves.

Here we don't have that problem. We control the ruler, so we can make sure he actually does a good job and doesn't go to far. And if we get to control all our heirs, we can also make sure the passage of power is as smooth as possible. Also Garrick didn't pursue this power, he was basically given it without a choice in the matter!

Democracy might slowly be applied on local levels, maybe. I doubt it will go to actually limit the power of the monarchs though.

 

[Prof.MoreRight]

The problem in real life would be that You can never be completely sure that the would-be-dictator is actually a good person, or that he won't go too far, and, even if by some miracle you get a competent, wise, incorruptible ruler... sooner or later he'll die, and it's rare for the transition to a new ruler to be peaceful and smooth.

A secondary problem is that, usually, the best people to be given this kind of power are not really the ones who would pursue it themselves.

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I agree with everything you said, but you forgot one thing. Different cultures and systems of belief prioritize rights and issues differently resulting in different ideas of what's right, wrong, worst, and best. To put this short and simple, one man's utopia is another's destopia.

 

[PyrrosWarrior]

I'm genuinely confused why anyone would want Gryphus to become a democracy. Have you guys forgotten that this is a CK2 style game where we control a monarch? Isn't losing the throne game over?

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It's not game over. If it becomes a republic, we just continue as we always have, with maybe some party mechanics added if whomever the QM is at the time feels they are up to additional complexity. Despite being a monarchy, we already don't have that much focus on the monarchy. Their roles are mostly an audience surrogate, and would be taken up by the executive or Congress (whichever has more power) if we were to become a republic or constitutional monarchy.

and at any moment can just completely dissolve parliament.

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That was heavily restricted around 2012. She can't legally do that unilaterally anymore, not even in the "just de jure but de facto can't" that it was before. That kinda demonstrates you are wrong about the other things too, because as soon as she uses any of those other powers, they would be taken away. The UK monarchy is strong and rich, but in an informal way, not a formal powers way.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

It's not game over. If it becomes a republic, we just continue as we always have, with maybe some party mechanics added if whomever the QM is at the time feels they are up to additional complexity. Despite being a monarchy, we already don't have that much focus on the monarchy. Their roles are mostly an audience surrogate, and would be taken up by the executive or Congress (whichever has more power) if we were to become a republic or constitutional monarchy.

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It's already established that we are playing as the current monarch, when he dies we will switch to controlling one of his descendants, and when there are no surviving family members it's game over. So if we turn Gryphus into a democratic Republic then we just give ourselves a handicap by requiring our character to win elections. What happens if we lose? Does the game end? Or do we end up in the awkward position of having the game play itself while we helplessly watch? I know this sounds paranoid but I can't help but wonder if some of the players suggesting democracy are trolls trying to kill the game.

 

[Halocon720]

Keep in mind that the GDV is a very small group of beings who saw the minotaur system and started wondering if it could be applied at home; they don't have any power or influence, and that treatise probably won't be printed in a run larger than maybe 25-30 copies, one for every member plus possibly a couple friends or family members who are interested, which won't be many.

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Reposting this again, to counter the assertion that I'm a troll

Edit: I based the GDV on political salons that came aboutin the early Industrial Age, which is roughly where we are at the moment. Given similar material conditions, I figured that a similar, if extremely embryonic, movement would arise ITTL as well; however, they are not nearly as prominent as equivalent movements in OTL due to significant differences in material and cultural conditions in-universe, despite any similarities to reality.

 

[FictionPack]

I just believe that there is no reason that anyone in Gryphus would even think of a Democracy. They are pretty set on the royal family and beings earning their positions through hard work.

We could try to get a democracy instituted in Maretonia though, and hope Ambrosia wins it.

 

[PyrrosWarrior]

It's already established that we are playing as the current monarch, when he dies we will switch to controlling one of his descendants, and when there are no surviving family members it's game over. So if we turn Gryphus into a democratic Republic then we just give ourselves a handicap by requiring our character to win elections. What happens if we lose? Does the game end? Or do we end up in the awkward position of having the game play itself while we helplessly watch? I know this sounds paranoid but I can't help but wonder if some of the players suggesting democracy are trolls trying to kill the game.

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We are playing as the current monarch because we are a monarchy. Dude, I've BEEN in a huge number of quests of this and other genres. When it switches to a less personal system, it instead changes to something appropriate for THAT system rather than still being personality-based. Be rational for a second. This isn't "MonarchyQuest" and no quest of this build has ever worked like you are ascribing. I don't even want to change to a democracy, but you are just nearing fearmongering levels of blowing this out of proportion.

Ultimately, we are playing Gryphus and any of its successor states should such a situation ever happen. We play it through the eyes of the royal family because they are leading Gryphus. Were we to be any other system of government, we wouldn't be required to "win elections." Elections would happen in the background and we would play whomever has the most power to qualify as "ruling" Gryphus.