Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

[TheLordofAwesome]

I don't see the problem with helping the Imperial Cult get their book published. If the concern is favoritism, I think that is unfounded given we contacted a very important shaman of the Yak faith to make the first runestone, given significant assistance to the Old God faith, and then there is all the help to the Crystal Pony faith. The most we've done for the cult is get all the different branches to come together. helping them get their book out is a literal non-issue.

 

[Blacksheep]

I don't see the problem with helping the Imperial Cult get their book published. If the concern is favoritism, I think that is unfounded given we contacted a very important shaman of the Yak faith to make the first runestone, given significant assistance to the Old God faith, and then there is all the help to the Crystal Pony faith. The most we've done for the cult is get all the different branches to come together. helping them get their book out is a literal non-issue.

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Do we want to actively involve ourselves in the cult? Doing things for them as their deity is different from doing favors as a ruler, and I don't think the cult differentiates between the two when it comes to the emperor. I'm honestly unsure if they would just take the book and be happy or see it as gospel that's divinely Sanctioned if their god helps them get it published

 

[Star]

Well, unless we drastically rewrite the law code... Yes zealots who break the law get the book thrown at them, just like any other citizen who breaks the law... cause you know the law code has a function and is not selective based on faith?

I see absolutely no reason to help, recognize, aid, or do anything with the Imperial cult. If we do ANY action with them besides stamp them out we implicitly agree with their premise since we would be boosting them with any action. The control argument for me doesn't hold water because, the cult GAVE us the position of central divine figure of their religion. I can think of no reason why Garrick, the Royal Family, or the State of Griffonia would want to support an Imperial Cult, especially when we have other options. If the Imperial Cult is facing a logjam... let the logs stayed jammed.

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Yes, but you are explicitly point out at one group and branding them zealots, now even calling for prosecution despite us deciding to be more religion tolerant society last turn. As for bad religions, well let's say pantheon has war God, so for you it okay to worship God centered around war instead of quite down to earth Emperor? I'm quite sure that i can point lesser evil between the two.

As for reason, they were already pointed in previous discussions , it's just that you are so endorsed on every member of the cult being fanatic that don't want to see any other option. From justifying monarchial power, giving us potential ways to ascend alicorn style, to it not being radicalized/hijacked down the line, if i can prevent potential deaths of our citizens then I'll do it and intentionally ignoring the cult and potentially radicalizing our own subjects doesn't sit well with me. If we wanted to stop the cult we should have done it at the start I stead of allowing it to exsist, now it's members are our responsibility and i don't want to have a hand in any potential mess that comes out from our indecision. I don't want that kind of stain in Garricks rule.

 

[Star]

Do we want to actively involve ourselves in the cult? Doing things for them as their deity is different from doing favors as a ruler, and I don't think the cult differentiates between the two when it comes to the emperor. I'm honestly unsure if they would just take the book and be happy or see it as gospel that's divinely Sanctioned if their god helps them get it published

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It's they that wrote the book, we if we wish can edit it and they will probably accept it happily. Or we can simply just help them find a printer, its literally a favour done by the state as we are just printing for them, favour that can be done by any benefactor. Also is it confirmed that we are deity's instead of person they hold in high regard?

 

[Blacksheep]

Yes, but you are explicitly point out at one group and branding them zealots, now even calling for prosecution despite us deciding to be more religion tolerant society last turn. As for bad religions, well let's say pantheon has war God, so for you it okay to worship God centered around war instead of quite down to earth Emperor? I'm quite sure that i can point lesser evil between the two.

As for reason, they were already pointed in previous discussions , it's just that you are so endorsed on every member of the cult being fanatic that don't want to see any other option. From justifying monarchial power, giving us potential ways to ascend alicorn style, to it not being radicalized/hijacked down the line, if i can prevent potential deaths of our citizens then I'll do it and intentionally ignoring the cult and potentially radicalizing our own subjects doesn't sit well with me. If we wanted to stop the cult we should have done it at the start I stead of allowing it to exsist, now it's members are our responsibility and i don't want to have a hand in any potential mess that comes out from our indecision. I don't want that kind of stain in Garricks rule.

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Not directly connected, but do you think the Gryphons really have a way to ascend like the ponies do? Cause that would be cool

 

[Whenyouseeyou]

We just give them a editor first their book that will unite them and then just leave them there

 

[Star]

We just give them a editor first their book that will unite them and then just leave them there

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I just want their teaching printed and known so that they are harder to potentially change later.

Not directly connected, but do you think the Gryphons really have a way to ascend like the ponies do? Cause that would be cool

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I actually hope so. If hippogriffs and ponies pump enough magic into the worship we may be able to, not us but one of our descendants. Of course in theory person that ascends should embody the beliefs of those who pump magic, aka embodiment of elements of harmony/friendship in ponies case, or be benevolent and just ruler in imperial cults case i believe.

 

[RebelYell]

There should be something similar for gryphon's like the ponies have for alicorn's when we get the imperial faith more love. Neighpon has their god's and their currently snoozing, Phalanx probably is doin the worship into godhood wrong since they're worshipping a false identity.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

I see what you mean, but hear me out; I at least want it to have more influence then the Lady of the Lakes. At the very least I want our false religion to be more popular in our own land the a foreign country's false one.

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We haven't supported the lady of the lakes religion at all and the way things are set up it isn't likely to gain much of a following in our territory without state support when it is competing with several other religions that do have that advantage. Notice that supporting the lady of the lakes cult wasn't listed as an option this turn, their attempts at converting our population have failed so bad they seem to have given up for now.

 

[Star]

There should be something similar for gryphon's like the ponies have for alicorn's when we get the imperial faith more love. Neighpon has their god's and their currently snoozing, Phalanx probably is doin the worship into godhood wrong since they're worshipping a false identity.

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I believe that if the problem with Phalanx is that she doesn't embody the virtues her religion speaks of beside it being fake persona. As said i actually believe that as long as you embody all qualities magic radiated from your worshipers requires that magic is directed towards you. Even better if it's precise. Which is why i prefer that magic directed towards player character , heck even crystal heart is working on same principles and i don't want to miss a chance because of paranoia.

 

[Themarineguy]

Church of the Lady of the Lakes: The third religion introduced from a foreign people, and the only one to have an organized hierarchy with a foreign head of state serving as the leader of the faith. Worship of the Lady can be traced to the earliest days of the modern Kingdom of Canterbury, where it is claimed that she appeared to the first King of Canterbury, blessing him with the strength to unite the disparate peoples of the realm and fight back against the countless beasts that infested it. To this day, she is venerated across the Kingdom of Canterbury, and even in a select few areas outside it, including communities within your Empire. Recently, it has been revealed to you that the religion is a front for the machinations of the Changeling Queen Phalanx, who has taken upon the guise of a Goddess to rule Canterbury from the shadows.
Influence Level: .5 (No Benefits)

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Neighponese Spiritualism: Also known as Kami-no-Michi, the indigenous religion of Neighpon revolves around the veneration of countless nature spirits which inhabit and embody various facets of the landscape. The Qilin believe that these spirits can have a benevolent or destructive influence upon the material world, and must be appeased with worship and sacrifice. Neighponese spiritualism is unusual in that not only does it lack a specific moral code or organized religious hierarchy, but is considered compatible with other religious beliefs, with many of its adherents also subscribing to another faith.
Influence Level: .4 (No Benefits)

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The Imperial Cult: Perhaps the most unusual of the faiths to have taken root in the Empire, the followers of the Imperial Cult embrace the radical belief that the Emperor and the Imperial family are divine beings made flesh, destined to lead the people of the world to greatness. While you personally are a bit uncomfortable with being worshipped as a divine figure, you can't deny it has its benefits.
Influence Level: .3 (No Benefits)

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On the other hand, they do have more influence than not only the imperial cult, but they also have more than Neighponese Spiritualism.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

Celestia and Luna also have their own worshippers, it's not that out of the ordinary.

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Not really, the equestrian explorers said that they didn't have a religion of their own which implies that they don't think of their leaders as gods despite being powerful enough to defeat Discord.

 

[Blacksheep]

Not really, the equestrian explorers said that they didn't have a religion of their own which implies that they don't think of their leaders as god's despite being powerful enough to defeat Discord.

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I think that might be because Luna and Celestia haven't done enough yet, and we already know that ponies tap some of the most powerful magic, just look at Sombra

 

[Questor]

I see Emperor worshipers as a form of ancestor worship which is centered around the Emperor really and by that i simply don't see them being anymore radical than any other religion. As for other nations? First and foremost if Neighpon is modeled on imperial Japan than Emperor there is already treated as semy divine figure so i doubt that other nations would rise a dust around imperial cult which brings me to this, just because they are carrying the name of a cult that belongs to warhammer people are treating this religion like it's literal imperial cult while balantly ignoring world building in a quest.

And we aren't supporting them and demanding everyone to outright worship us like a God, we are giving them same treatment like any other religion out there, even less than that.

Which really brings me to next thing, what happened to us being mostly ancestor worshipers @Questor ? Is that thing yet and if it is why don't we have options related to that form of religion?

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Ancestor Worship isn't the right word. It's more like Ancestor veneration. The mostly secular idolization of those who came before. And that's more of a cultural thing than a religious belief in and of itself.

Barring a general belief in the afterlife, prior to the introduction/reintroduction of religion to Griffon society in the aftermath of Discord's death/disappearance, Griffons were largely secular.

When their Gods didn't save them from Discord, it was hard for most people to continue to believe.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

New to the site, and enjoying the quest!

Do find it amusing that there's so much argument around how Griffonia's involvement in the war would look when Canterbury purposely kicked off this civil war with their little assassination. I wonder what they want to get out of this? And is there enough structure in Maretonia to even survive the current war it's fallen into?

My opinion: helping Maretonia is nice, but at the end of the day not our responsibility. Would be good to help, but it's not our responsibility to commit our army to saving the country

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We originally got involved with Maratonia because they enslaved our citizens and we wanted them to outlaw slavery to keep that from happening again. Then the civil war caused a refugee crisis that messed up our economy and is getting worse the longer it goes on. As for why we sided with the abolitionists, they're the only faction that won't raid our protectorate for slaves when the war ends. We aren't just doing this to help Maratonia, we are removing a future threat that is almost garaunteed to cause us probloms if we ignore it.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

Well, unless we drastically rewrite the law code... Yes zealots who break the law get the book thrown at them, just like any other citizen who breaks the law... cause you know the law code has a function and is not selective based on faith?

I see absolutely no reason to help, recognize, aid, or do anything with the Imperial cult. If we do ANY action with them besides stamp them out we implicitly agree with their premise since we would be boosting them with any action. The control argument for me doesn't hold water because, the cult GAVE us the position of central divine figure of their religion. I can think of no reason why Garrick, the Royal Family, or the State of Griffonia would want to support an Imperial Cult, especially when we have other options. If the Imperial Cult is facing a logjam... let the logs stayed jammed.

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Agreed, we cannot support them without risking political fallout with other nations and possibly alienating citizens that have converted to other faiths that we have previously supported. At the same time I don't think we can just stamp them out without doing serious harm to our public image. Better to continue ignoring this fringe minority until they either fade into obscurity or become an actual problem beyond annoying people with their preaching.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

Also is it confirmed that we are deity's instead of person they hold in high regard?

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Yes, they have outright said that they worship the emperor as a living god. This is more problematic than the other religions due to the potential to strain the relations we have worked to build throughout this game. It's not the cultists themselves that are the problem but how others might react if we supported them.

 

[Star]

Yes, they have outright said that they worship the emperor as a living god. This is more problematic than the other religions due to the potential to strain the relations we have worked to build throughout this game. It's not the cultists themselves that are the problem but how others might react if we supported them.

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Yea, they hold Emperor and imperial family as divine figures made flesh, it's controversial but it has its uses as other nations will see it. But really i still don't really see the problem here, us interacting with one of the religions in Griffonia is our internal matter, not to mention other religions still have significant freedom in Griffonia what i can't say for other places in general, especially when it comes to our own religions, not to mention other religions aren't persecuted in Griffonia which is another reason not to raise eyebrows.
Us giving them a hand won't be seen any different than us giving a hand to any other religious group, especially since we aren't actively trying to make them dominant religion.

It's one thing to make everyone worship us and imperial family in totality and export it outside, then other nations can rise eyebrows, it's completely other thing to manage our own religious affairs to prevent any negative consequences. Other nations can hardly accuse us for trying to secure our citizens safety, even if it's odd bunch.

So excuse of us having strained relationship because of this doesn't hold here , we aren't forcing any force conversations and our citizens are free to pick their religion out of their free will in free and fair competition.

Though personally i would prefer dominance of Pantheon closely followed by crystal heart. Generally becoming melting pot of religions where we manage influence of every single religion isn't recepy for stability in my opinion. Better to have one (preferably home) religion dominant , followed by another religion that is still under our influence and other religions sharing influence on equal basis.

Also it's cultural influence thing, once one religion achieves dominance we should be able to export it outside thus strengthening our soft power.

 

[Travler66]

@AthetosAdmech please don't triple post, it's considered rude.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

Yes, they have outright said that they worship the emperor as a living god. This is more problematic than the other religions due to the potential to strain the relations we have worked to build throughout this game. It's not the cultists themselves that are the problem but how others might react if we supported them.

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The Emperor of Neighpon is also held to be divine by his subjects, and we get along with them just fine.

The religion holding Garrick and his family to be divine won't cause any problems with our allies either as long as we don't proselytize as government policy. If that religion's god (Garrick) gives them a wee bit of guidance every once in a while, there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.

 

[Themarineguy]

Agreed, we cannot support them without risking political fallout with other nations and possibly alienating citizens that have converted to other faiths that we have previously supported. At the same time I don't think we can just stamp them out without doing serious harm to our public image. Better to continue ignoring this fringe minority until they either fade into obscurity or become an actual problem beyond annoying people with their preaching.

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Yes, they have outright said that they worship the emperor as a living god. This is more problematic than the other religions due to the potential to strain the relations we have worked to build throughout this game. It's not the cultists themselves that are the problem but how others might react if we supported them.

Click to shrink...

especially when it comes to our own religions, not to mention other religions aren't persecuted in Griffonia which is another reason not to raise eyebrows.
Us giving them a hand won't be seen any different than us giving a hand to any other religious group, especially since we aren't actively trying to make them dominant religion.

It's one thing to make everyone worship us and imperial family in totality and export it outside, then other nations can rise eyebrows, it's completely other thing to manage our own religious affairs to prevent any negative consequences. Other nations can hardly accuse us for trying to secure our citizens safety, even if it's odd bunch.

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While overly supporting any religion may cause problems, I fail to see why offering a little support for one of the smallest religions in the nation would have drastic impact...

 

[TheLordofAwesome]

We haven't supported the lady of the lakes religion at all and the way things are set up it isn't likely to gain much of a following in our territory without state support when it is competing with several other religions that do have that advantage. Notice that supporting the lady of the lakes cult wasn't listed as an option this turn, their attempts at converting our population have failed so bad they seem to have given up for now.

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I don't think they given up, I think because we found out their entire religion is based on a lie, Garrick has opted to never acknowledge requests from them.

Do we want to actively involve ourselves in the cult? Doing things for them as their deity is different from doing favors as a ruler, and I don't think the cult differentiates between the two when it comes to the emperor. I'm honestly unsure if they would just take the book and be happy or see it as gospel that's divinely Sanctioned if their god helps them get it published

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Again, I don't think that is the case. I mean, they need the help and requested it like all the other faiths. I don't see how helping with their request will automatically make people go "Garrick supports the Imperial Cult, therefore they wish to be worshipped as a god." We've literally helped every other religion in the nation (besides the Church of the Lady of the Lake , now for VERY obvious reasons), so I do not think it will turn any heads. At most it would just make the Imperial Cultists happy that their god just moved things along. At worst people will just go "Okay, they're a little weird but alright."

While overly supporting any religion may cause problems, I fail to see why offering a little support for one of the smallest religions in the nation would have drastic impact...

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I don't think it would cause that big of an issue, especially since we've shown unbiased support for other religions.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

Yea, they hold Emperor and imperial family as divine figures made flesh, it's controversial but it has its uses as other nations will see it. But really i still don't really see the problem here, us interacting with one of the religions in Griffonia is our internal matter, not to mention other religions still have significant freedom in Griffonia what i can't say for other places in general, especially when it comes to our own religions, not to mention other religions aren't persecuted in Griffonia which is another reason not to raise eyebrows.
Us giving them a hand won't be seen any different than us giving a hand to any other religious group, especially since we aren't actively trying to make them dominant religion.

It's one thing to make everyone worship us and imperial family in totality and export it outside, then other nations can rise eyebrows, it's completely other thing to manage our own religious affairs to prevent any negative consequences. Other nations can hardly accuse us for trying to secure our citizens safety, even if it's odd bunch.

So excuse of us having strained relationship because of this doesn't hold here , we aren't forcing any force conversations and our citizens are free to pick their religion out of their free will in free and fair competition.

Though personally i would prefer dominance of Pantheon closely followed by crystal heart. Generally becoming melting pot of religions where we manage influence of every single religion isn't recepy for stability in my opinion. Better to have one (preferably home) religion dominant , followed by another religion that is still under our influence and other religions sharing influence on equal basis.

Also it's cultural influence thing, once one religion achieves dominance we should be able to export it outside thus strengthening our soft power.

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Exporting our own religion to exercise soft power isn't a bad idea but we already have several ways to influence other nations. For example: we have the best spies, are building an extensive trade network, and have good diplomats that are made even more effective by the previous two strengths. I think we should consider the benefits of the other religions in light of this.

The Neighponese and Yak religions would both help strengthen ties with our allies and might unlock new magic abilities. For example if we continued to support yak shamanism we might be able to get a divination from a local shaman for free instead of needing to waste an action to ask the yaks for one. Hard to say what bonus we might get from the neighponese spirit worship, maybe something related to the sea?

Crystal Heart worship has already given us a new technology in the form of magic runes which is a big deal since magically we're still very weak. The option to support them further is already hinting at another hidden technology by suggesting we help them make mini crystal hearts.

The benefits of Griffon Polytheism and the Imperial Cult are largely unknown at this point but if you feel that we should have a religion unique to our civilization then I think Polytheism would be better than a literal cult of personality.

 

[TheLordofAwesome]

I'm trying not to meta game and be more of a roleplayer when it comes to decision making, so personally I'm perfectly fine with helping the Imperial Cult since from my perspective I feel Garrick is the type who would give help to the Imperial Cult because, like all the others on the Council of Faiths, they asked for his help. He might be a little uncomfortable with the idea of being worshipped, but he isn't going to tell them how they should live their personal lives.

That being said, I think next turn we should do the Neighponese religion. Not for any reason than the fact that I want to invest a little into them since they are, now, the odd man out. I wanna give everyone a little bit of love.

 

[Star]

Exporting our own religion to exercise soft power isn't a bad idea but we already have several ways to influence other nations. For example: we have the best spies, are building an extensive trade network, and have good diplomats that are made even more effective by the previous two strengths. I think we should consider the benefits of the other religions in light of this.

The Neighponese and Yak religions would both help strengthen ties with our allies and might unlock new magic abilities. For example if we continued to support yak shamanism we might be able to get a divination from a local shaman for free instead of needing to waste an action to ask the yaks for one. Hard to say what bonus we might get from the neighponese spirit worship, maybe something related to the sea?

Crystal Heart worship has already given us a new technology in the form of magic runes which is a big deal since magically we're still very weak. The option to support them further is already hinting at another hidden technology by suggesting we help them make mini crystal hearts.

The benefits of Griffon Polytheism and the Imperial Cult are largely unknown at this point but if you feel that we should have a religion unique to our civilization then I think Polytheism would be better than a literal cult of personality.

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I do consider other religions and i pretty much said that in one of my latest post's. They all should share equal influence, enough for us to benefit from them, but in still in minority to Pantheon and Crystal heart (I consider crystal heart home religion due to it being located in our lands and being cherished by our subjects, it should help foster even closer relationship with crystal ponies and Griffons and soft power abroad with pilgrimages to crystal city), Pantheon being the favoured religion due to it being old Griffonian religion and adopted to the modern ancestor worship values (i actually believe it happening with every religion in Griffonia really as they probably are taking something from our modern ancestor tradition to fit better in Griffonian mindset). And all other religions (Imperial cult, Yak/Griffonian shamanism, Neighponese religion having equal share ) , I'm generally talking about end game where everyone are more or less converted , i wish religious demographics to be with Pantheon on first place, followed closely by Crystal heart (those two we will export ) and other tree having equal share, that generally outs us in the position in which combined with the cult our home religions have solid majority.

Here's my quote about that so yea we are more or less in agreement, only major disagreement being position of imperial cult.

Though personally i would prefer dominance of Pantheon closely followed by crystal heart. Generally becoming melting pot of religions where we manage influence of every single religion isn't recepy for stability in my opinion. Better to have one (preferably home) religion dominant , followed by another religion that is still under our influence and other religions sharing influence on equal basis.

Also it's cultural influence thing, once one religion achieves dominance we should be able to export it outside thus strengthening our soft power.

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Generally in my opinion influence of religions isn't just measured by the number of followers, it's also measured by administrative influence, for example shamanism can have influence via informing us through vision despite having lower number of followers,or Neighponese religion followers get influence by holding position in magic college and military, basically our home religions holding dominance is more about domestic stability since those we can influence.