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Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

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PyrrosWarrior said:
The general point I was carrying across in that sentence is that only the oldest and most conservative were bothering to hold on to that faith with most of our people having converted to and found their identities in other faiths. The meaning that is communicating isn't untrue, because the meaning is found in the context of my arguing against Gleeman's idea that a religious identity unique to each species is at all necessary or even beneficial for the gryphon species's place within our empire. It's not, as they already have a religious identity and making a new one based on species lines will just cause potential division lines. Gleeman appears to be working on a kind of bias in that they believe it is that way, and as a result dismiss the political reality of our country and any implication that contradicts their firm belief that it is in any way as big a necessity (or even a necessity at all) as they think.

In summary, my recent statements haven't even been against ever taking any actions for the pantheon. They've explicitly been against the idea that it is "necessary" for gryphons to have a unique species religious identity within our empire when we have been focusing so hard on forging more of a civic nationalism-based empire than a religious nationalism or ethnic (species) nationalism one. That is why I stated this:
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Well, thank you for indirectly accusing me of religiously-motivated nationalism/speciesism.

Also funny that you mention "political realities", because even now in our comparetively secular world there are people worshipping Old Faith like the Norse pantheon (that´s actually where I got the term "Gryphotrú" from) and not even the vast majority of them are racists/nationalist - they simply think that the religion surrounding the Aesir/Vanir "resonates" with them more clearly than anything about YHWH ever could. One reason might be that the Aesir/Vanir act more like *actual people* than the quite literal God-Mode Sue of the Abrahamic faiths who can/knows/is/wants everything under the sun.

Giving all those people a leg/claw to stand on is all I am about. Heck, maybe after us backing Gryphotrú some (more?) non-gryphons might flock to that believe as well? Spirituality should be about who you are, but what you feel a connection to.

Also, I heavily disagree with the Imperial Cult being a good thing because it essentially *devalues* anything we ever did by insisting that such a great being as King Garrick MUST be a god. The mere implication that anything a "human" being could ever achieve pales in comparison to the majesty of HIM UP THERE just reeks of barely-concealed misanthropy and nihilism. Sure, people have done a lot of nasty shit, but also great stuff and I refuse to have that being taken away by celestial "kill-stealers".

That´s why I will always oppose endorsing the Imperial Cult - heck, if I´d been around back then, I´d have voted for the Cult´s banning because to me, it´s an abomination.
 
TheGleeman said:
Well, thank you for indirectly accusing me of religiously-motivated nationalism/speciesism.

Also funny that you mention "political realities", because even now in our comparetively secular world there are people worshipping Old Faith like the Norse pantheon (that´s actually where I got the term "Gryphotrú" from) and not even the vast majority of them are racists/nationalist - they simply think that the religion surrounding the Aesir/Vanir "resonates" with them more clearly than anything about YHWH ever could. One reason might be that the Aesir/Vanir act more like *actual people* than the quite literal God-Mode Sue of the Abrahamic faiths who can/knows/is/wants everything under the sun.
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I...wasn't accusing you of any -isms though? I was stating that you appear to have underlying philosophical views - the type unique to each and every person that unconsciously influences our perception of the world and each other - that make you stubborn towards ideas opposing them simply because they betray your perception of how the world works. In this case, I believe you to be unconsciously impressing that perception on how the world works on to how this world works as well since we have no reason to assume that such basic things would work any different, which leads to your surprise that the popular response to the old faith is not some instant turnaround and boost in morale among the gryphon population within the empire.

Also, I am aware of the Asatru movement. I had a friend a few years ago whom I've mentioned here on this forum who was born and raised Catholic yet converted to that specific neopagan movement. He even taught me a little bit of how to read futhark, though I am afraid I only remember fehu and isa these days. A fun guy - he had a desire to go to either Greenland or Iceland (don't remember which) to see some kind of special ruins and connect with the local community. I don't know how he is these days since he was more a casual friend than a close friend I would actually try to keep in close contact with.

That said, the Asatru movement is both a horrible example against the point you believe I am making considering they are a revivalist movement reconstructing the faith rather than being some people clinging to belief throughout time, and also because the point you believe I am making is not the point I am actually making.

Edit: Also, my saying "political realities" had nothing to do with the numbers. I was referring to the same thing Torgamous mentioned that started my hand in this conversation - that we have fostered such a great intercultural atmosphere of friendship and tolerance towards all beliefs that our people aren't finding themselves spiritually "lost" and in need of a cultural anchor for their religion as you have generally been claiming.
 
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PyrrosWarrior said:
That said, the Asatru movement is both a horrible example against the point you believe I am making considering they are a revivalist movement reconstructing the faith rather than being some people clinging to belief throughout time, and also because the point you believe I am making is not the point I am actually making.
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Then what point are you making that has you shunning Gryphotrú (I originally coined that term because 1. Gryphonias vaguely Germanic flavour and 2. I quite honestly couldn´t be bothered to write "Ancient Gryphonian Pantheon" each time), yet endorsing the lunatics of the Imperial Cult?
 
TheGleeman said:
Then what point are you making that has you shunning Gryphotrú (I originally coined that term because 1. Gryphonias vaguely Germanic flavour and 2. I quite honestly couldn´t be bothered to write "Ancient Gryphonian Pantheon" each time), yet endorsing the lunatics of the Imperial Cult?
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I'm not shunning the Old Faith. I specifically said that I was arguing against your specific point rather than the thing as a whole. Reread all my posts in this conversation - as well as my last reply to you since I edited in some extra bits while you were writing this - and you'll see that.

Also, I am not going to argue about the Imperial Cult. This conversation will just go off the rails and be distracted by that.
 
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My point and my "underlying belief" is simply, that since everyone else got their spiritualistic cosmos represented (Qilin Shinto expy, Yak Shamanism, Canterburian "lakegazing"), it´d be only fair if Gryphotrú was blessed with the same care. Of course, some may disagree for some reasons, but that´s what I belief in and that´s what I will endorse.

Now, the Imperial Cult on the other hand are simply a bunch of whack-jobs utterly removed from the world of reason who can only bring problems and should never have allowed to form in the first place. Because of that I will oppose any Piety votes that aim to give them any more influence than they already got.
 
devil's advocate here
TheGleeman said:
My point and my "underlying belief" is simply, that since everyone else got their spiritualistic cosmos represented (Qilin Shinto expy, Yak Shamanism, Canterburian "lakegazing"), it´d be only fair if Gryphotrú was blessed with the same care. Of course, some may disagree for some reasons, but that´s what I belief in and that´s what I will endorse.
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To be fair, the gryphons are BY FAR the least involved/intrinsecally linked to their own religion.

You CAN'T really separate the crystal pony culture from the crystal heart. Same for lady of the lake and the canterburian, and (to a lesser extent) yak and Qilin from their spiritualist beliefs.

If you remove the old gryphon pantheon from the equation, the gryphon race is mostly fine.

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that we should forget that religion, but that it's OBJECTIVELY less important to the gryphs that other religions are to their own races. As a consequence of our decisions our people are simply ok with adopting other people's religions, kind of like how the Romans did.

TheGleeman said:
Now, the Imperial Cult on the other hand are simply a bunch of whack-jobs utterly removed from the world of reason who can only bring problems and should never have allowed to form in the first place. Because of that I will oppose any Piety votes that aim to give them any more influence than they already got.
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there is always a chance that the focusing and channeling of faith and belief on our emperor might empower him and cause an alicorn-like ascension.

...shut up, I CAN DREAM! I'm not crazy, YOU'RE CRAZY! :p


jokes aside, I personally plan to give the minimum level of support I'd give to any other religion, and nothing more, unless something happens that ends up changing my mind.
 
Yeah, I´d say that at the moment the one belief we should be careful about is the Canterburian one, as long as we don´t know for sure what exactly is going on there with their possible involvement in Mareias death and now those implied links to the late King Brochard. (As for the Imperial Cult, there is no reason to boost it at all...therefore I left it out for a bit).

I mean, I still want Gryphotrú to get boosted to at least the next boon tier for fairness´ sake...otherwise the beliefs of our Yak and Qilin allies should take precedence.
 
Themarineguy said:
So the Maretonian Royal guard proves themselves as elites worth that title, and a strange penchant for stealth. What is up with people being unusually good in the stealth department? At this rate I expect to end up encountering someone who managed to outwit the changeling agents in their own game! :ninja: :lol::rofl::lol:
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What if our dragon daughter learns from our spies and can somehow stealth even when she becomes an adult? That would be fucking amazing and terrifying, it would take a tactical genius to hide something as large as a dragon without it being detected!
 
Ancient Scholar said:
What if our dragon daughter learns from our spies and can somehow stealth even when she becomes an adult? That would be fucking amazing and terrifying, it would take a tactical genius to hide something as large as a dragon without it being detected!
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Allow me to introduce you to the Warhound-class Scout Titan.
Scout Titan

One of the tactics employed by this little guy is to go fully dormant behind large hills or buildings and ambushing any enemy force unlucky enough to get close. And it only takes about 12 seconds for it to go from fully dormant to Combat ready.
 
Pittauro said:
there is always a chance that the focusing and channeling of faith and belief on our emperor might empower him and cause an alicorn-like ascension.

...shut up, I CAN DREAM! I'm not crazy, YOU'RE CRAZY!
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Eh... My view on it is that the Equestrian races have an intrinsic "web" between them that is built by personal connections. Hence "love" being a tangible thing that thaumavores can consume and the Elements of Harmony being a superweapon as they can tap into said web for power beyond what they can generate/store themselves.

So... It's possible but would need to be a roundabout path. :V
 
Took two days away to calm down since I was getting worked up. Look Gleeman, I don't really care about arguing against your points anymore. If I did, I wouldn't have stopped addressing you directly for over a month or two before these last few days. All I want you to realize is that I was not in fact calling or implicating you as some kind of prejudiced person, nor someone advocating prejudice.
 
DaLintyGuy said:
Good point. Maybe a more constant metaphysical thing... Hrm.
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There are many possible interpretations.

Another possibility: when you love someone, you open yourself to that person. that could basically offer access to changelings to the specific being's magic, which is actually what they feed on. You're basically lowering your instinctive magical defenses because you love/trust that being.

Or maybe in this world emotions are quite literally sources of power. That's valid for both good AND bad guys (Sombra was clearly powered by anger and hate.

The Crystal Heart seems to work as a conduit for the power of the crystal ponies. Maybe what it does is basically take a small part of their magical energy, more or less willingly offered, convert it/change it/amplify it, store it, and use it when necessary as directed by the runes.

In the end things are left so vague in the show that Questor can headcanon literally anything he wants to.
 
Pittauro said:
Another possibility: when you love someone, you open yourself to that person. that could basically offer access to changelings to the specific being's magic, which is actually what they feed on. You're basically lowering your instinctive magical defenses because you love/trust that being.
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Can't they forcibly take someone's "love" though?
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
Can't they forcibly take someone's "love" though?
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in the comics they do it pretty easily without any preparations. In the cartoon they only seem to do it when the victim is either in the pods, usually dreaming of his loved ones, or when hypnotized.

In both cases they BELIEVE they're with the one they loved, which would explain why their "guard" would be down.

That's if we go with this interpretation of course. I'm not pretending it's THE correct one, but it fits well enough if one wants it to.
 
Pittauro said:
The Crystal Heart seems to work as a conduit for the power of the crystal ponies. Maybe what it does is basically take a small part of their magical energy, more or less willingly offered, convert it/change it/amplify it, store it, and use it when necessary as directed by the runes.
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I think it was mentioned that we powered the crystal heart when Sombra got pasted by it, thanks to the love between Garrick and Gabriella, as well as the soldiers fighting with us in the city and their love of their country. So there is almost certainly power of emotions like love, considering the nature of Griffons.
Here is the quote I found talking about it.
Questor said:
Which brings me to the Crystal macguffin. I wasn't planning on it being the "instant win" device it was in Canon, but then you rolled high and had a great relationship with your spouse, so it became OP. As to why the Crystal Heart defeated Sombra now and not earlier...well, with Sombra's activities leaving it incapable of harnessing the power of love from the Crystal Ponies, it couldn't. Not until an army with a love of country and a couple with an unshakeable bond showed up right outside its door. That gave it all the power it needed to take down the greatly weakened Sombra.
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PyrrosWarrior said:
Took two days away to calm down since I was getting worked up. Look Gleeman, I don't really care about arguing against your points anymore. If I did, I wouldn't have stopped addressing you directly for over a month or two before these last few days. All I want you to realize is that I was not in fact calling or implicating you as some kind of prejudiced person, nor someone advocating prejudice.
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You were deliberately ignoring me? I genuinely didn´t catch on to that. Heck, in general I don´t really pay attention to the specific voter that I´m having a disagreement with (or vice versa) at any given moment...just that my ideas are facing opposition.

Sorry for being so damn frustrating at times, but in moments where I (from my point of view) worked hard to craft the "perfect" plan to get us all in an advantageous position, I tend to "black out" when faced with others disagreeing with me and lash out with great prejudice. When everything is said and done and the dust settles. I stare at the BS I did and sink into a pit of self-loathing.

Trust me when I say that genuinely want us to have fun together, but I am simply deathly afraid of "being left behind on the wayside"...That´s really something I need to get ironed out.

Let´s be honest: I was a major asshat about the whole issue which Faith to push for what reason and which faith to shun for what reason. It´s probably too late to seek your forgiveness and that of others here, but I really want to better myself.

In addition to all this I struggle a lot with nuances and understanding what people mean - another reason, why I jumped to wild conlcusions about what exactly your issues were with my reasoning. Heck,now that I finally got to understand more, I feel shit and don´t really care about pushing Gryphotrú for the sake of pushing it. Going from how this quest has been the whole time, we´ll probably have to discard that faith anyway come next turn.

I can only hope that we can find a way to reach some sort of accord, Phyros.
 
Agreed about the accord part. I do not like having to ignore major players in quests simply because of fear of an irreconcilable argument breaking out. It is quite counter-productive. At the end of the day, the quest is simply a means to have fun and entertain ourselves, so it is best not to intentionally or unintentionally drag each other or those around us down by ways of participating.
 
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Yay. Agreement and accord. A good wall.

On the issue of the Crystal heart. Hmm. Perhaps it reacted to depth rather than simple the presence of love. Garrick loves his wife dearly, and she him. So perhaps it was the sheer depth and purity of the love that brought forth the power of the Crystal Heart. Meaning that the Crystal heart requires Love, not love, and great quantities AND quality, in addition to the need for a catalyst or focus point.
 
Gaius Tyrannus said:
Yay. Agreement and accord. A good wall.

On the issue of the Crystal heart. Hmm. Perhaps it reacted to depth rather than simple the presence of love. Garrick loves his wife dearly, and she him. So perhaps it was the sheer depth and purity of the love that brought forth the power of the Crystal Heart. Meaning that the Crystal heart requires Love, not love, and great quantities AND quality, in addition to the need for a catalyst or focus point.
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Pittauro said:
...Wouldn't it be funny if the Crystal Heart was an ancient Changeling Artifact?
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You know, that would actually make a lot of sense from a pragmatic standpoint:

A really powerful magical Love amplifier/focus-point to make "harvesting" your food source more efficent and probably also less explicitly painful...a bit like a centralised blood drive for vampires (which Changelings got compared to as well as to the Fair Folk), you know?
 
TheGleeman said:
You know, that would actually make a lot of sense from a pragmatic standpoint:

A really powerful magical Love amplifier/focus-point to make "harvesting" your food source more efficent and probably also less explicitly painful...a bit like a centralised blood drive for vampires (which Changelings got compared to as well as to the Fair Folk), you know?
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An magical artifact that uses love to power itself and provide protection, and a race of parasitic vampire bugs that drain love from their victims. Now I'm not saying conspiracy, but it sounds like conspiracy.
 
Gaius Tyrannus said:
An magical artifact that uses love to power itself and provide protection, and a race of parasitic vampire bugs that drain love from their victims. Now I'm not saying conspiracy, but it sounds like conspiracy.
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Mind you, the "parasitic" bit was mainly because of Chrysalis and her damn power-hungry mentality - By themselves Changelings seem to be perfectly able to act in a more symbiotic fashion.

Now that I think about it: Crafting an artifact that protects your "charges" by funnelling their love in a non-harmful way so that you can use those feelings as nourishment sounds rather good...also reminds me of something.

Any of you ever played Fallout 3 and came across the "Family"? My solution for the Changeling question reminds me alot of that quest.

Once we come across the Changelings (whether by unmasking their supposed Canterburian plot or by any other thing) and manage to reach a peaceful accord with them, I´d like to forge a symbiotic relationship between them and the Protectorate.
 
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