Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We've built a relatively forward-thinking, race-agnostic culture. It's not that surprising that the general reaction to the ancestral history of a portion of our population was mostly a shrug.
Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest
- Thread starter Questor
- Start date
- Location
- Space
I mean we don't really need to officially vassalize them, but as a power that invested most in their cause and will be most necessary for them to rebuild themselves we will have options in form of various agreements as nothing is really free and i kinda doubt that internal factors within Griffonia itself like to randomly intervene in civil wars, or overthrow slavery without some sort of gain.
Edit: Also I agree that most ideal solution would be political marriage between Abolitionists and royal guard, probably to legitimizes abolitionists claim to the throne in eyes of non slave population.
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Warmach1ne32
Machine of War and Quests
- Location
- Indonesia
And increased understanding of Runes by studying the crystal itself. It is possible that we get lucky and get a Griffin artifact to study too like a Griffin version of Ghal Maraz or a Runefang from an excavation.
- Location
- Germany
That was the second time we supported the Crystal Faith, but I was specifically talking about the first time.
Beyond the whole conspiracy madness, Canterbury has been called Bretonnia, and it even more true than before. Now, I really enjoy Bretonnia and I like Canterbury even now.
The thing with Bretonnia is it whole system of governance needs constant low level threats to keep it going. Now, it Warhammer Fantasy, so there no lack of threats and proven itself time and again, but it show the flaws of Bretonnia (Extreme feudalism, backward in academics,), while still being fundamentally good-natured and heroic.
Yes, the very idea of King Brochard´s spymaster Lady Nightingale fled to Canterbury and may have even supplied Brochard with his monsters is worrisome, as it eveythign else about what we learn about Canterbury. (Enforced worship of the Lady, seemly never being able to deal with it monsters, etc.) But there still more to learn.
I'm very sure the next few turns of exploring the Ancient Empire will yield more, much more, if we keep at it.
The thing with Bretonnia is it whole system of governance needs constant low level threats to keep it going. Now, it Warhammer Fantasy, so there no lack of threats and proven itself time and again, but it show the flaws of Bretonnia (Extreme feudalism, backward in academics,), while still being fundamentally good-natured and heroic.
Yes, the very idea of King Brochard´s spymaster Lady Nightingale fled to Canterbury and may have even supplied Brochard with his monsters is worrisome, as it eveythign else about what we learn about Canterbury. (Enforced worship of the Lady, seemly never being able to deal with it monsters, etc.) But there still more to learn.
I'm very sure the next few turns of exploring the Ancient Empire will yield more, much more, if we keep at it.
- Location
- Germany
The update explicitly says that Worship of the Lady isn´t enforced legally, it simply doesn´t seem to cross Canterburian minds that there are other viable beliefs as well...Their (current?) Queen doubling as High Priestess and blessed Seer might be a reason for that of course, but we don´t know for sure yet
- Location
- Germany
Without knowing our options in the coming mini-turn, that´s hard to say. That being said, I´d like to hash out some kind of relief agreement that shows both the Maretonian public in general and the Royal Guard in particular that we mean well and got nothing to do with the assassination of their Queen (while still aknowledging that we had our trouble with how the Slave issue in the beginning went down)
- Location
- Italy
the fact we're already aiding their people, even without their explicit permission, might or might not play in our favour.
On the one hand it's a violation of their sovereignity. On the other, we're LITERALLY GIFTING THEM STUFF THEY NEED TO LIVE.
I expect it will give us a bonus in the negotiation rolls.
Of course we have to keep Canterbury's possible involvement in the assassination a secret for now. We simply know too little, and we have no way to justify our knowledge to them without revealing how we desecrated the body of their queen. MAYBE they could forgive that if we actually offered the culprit to them (in a "we won't ask how you know as long as you can prove it" way), but just suspicions? Yeah, no.
EDIT: honestly we didn't WANT Mareia to die. The abolitionists were making slow but constant and measurable progress! in a decade or two they could have gotten some real power with no need of a civil war!)
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- Location
- Maryland
Autonomy meant Autonomy
Whether they consider the two linked or not is a matter of debate.
In all honesty, I immediately stopped caring about the mages desire for autonomy when we discovered they were developing magical cloud nukes specifically designed to kill cities of civilians.
As this point it feels like we should probably hamstring the other two factions and let The abolitionist conquer the country, if only because they are the only ones without wmds + a plan to use them and they've would be a friendly polity if not a protectorate.
As this point it feels like we should probably hamstring the other two factions and let The abolitionist conquer the country, if only because they are the only ones without wmds + a plan to use them and they've would be a friendly polity if not a protectorate.
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One point to consider is that the mages were 'working for white star' in a sense when developing it, and that it is very situational. It's just that under the right conditions, it jumps straight into doomsday weapon level, due to it's very nature.
edit:From my understanding, more Pegasus magic = bigger boom.
edit:From my understanding, more Pegasus magic = bigger boom.
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- Location
- Italy
I'll play devil's advocate and say that we don't actually KNOW that they planned to use it on civilians, or that they knew how strong the explosions would be from the start.
For all we know they intended to use it on military bases/outposts. Maybe they would have used it in a mostly unhabited area as a demonstration of power/intimidation display.
It's not likely, but we can't be completely certain either way.
Alright then... Somewhat unorganized but 'ere we go.
Equestria: Start as either of two Legendary Lords, the Heavenly Twins. Faction wide the units are still broken up according to race (mixed unit being a late game thing, if ever, both due to difficulty in coding it and due to the fact that Equestrians are xenophobes even into the "modern" era) and are typically focused on their interplay rather than using one branch over the others. Unicorns provide basic ranged firepower, with specialized variants giving different affects (basic: arcane shot OR shields, advanced: AOE effects from fire or ice, debuffs, altering terrain, or "summoning" chaff). Pegasi are your cavalry equivalents and are predominantly shock cavalry lacking in staying power with a side order of missile cav for skirmishing. Earths are the typical line infantry, using formations and with a definite bias towards spears and pikes (looking kind of like lances, I guess, strapped to their sides so that only one leg is needed to thrust and pull their weapon).
Of course, the two Legendary Lords need different focuses, don't they?
The basic difference is that Luna is the duelist/militant Lord while Celestia is the political/economic Lord (which forms the core of how the canon timeline could be made from this era, with Luna continuously crusading and finding that gratitude is a very fleeting thing compared to who takes the credit for standard of living increases- skippingallthatloreyoudon'tcareabout!). Militarily this results in Luna relying on a core of professional forces that is fanatically loyal to her personally while Celestia uses levy type units backed by the magical might of the "civilized" portions of the country.
On the battlefield Celestia buffs and heals her side while Luna debuffs and damages the enemy, with that bias weakly transferring to their Unicorn Choir casters and Lesser Lords.
And then there are National traits. Due to how the nascent Equestria works, the three Tribes need to be played off of each other as they still see each other as "Others". Game wise this would be the same system as Maretonia would use with it's Noble Houses, just on a lesser scale.
Sombra: The Dark Archmagus Sombra... Well, he's the Dark Magic faction (well, outside of possible Zebrica alt-starts). Hordes of expendable chaff to bog down the enemy while you bring heavy units to bear on the critical points of the enemy battle line. Few if any subordinate casters mean that Sombra truly is a keystone target, and due to that this faction would not take land in the conventional sense, merely sacking settlements for more chaff, slaves, and money.
Not much nuance to be had here, unfortunately. Just don't lose your (well fortified and defended) capital or You Lose.
Neighpon: Here though, we have some good opportunities for alternative mechanics to make the nation feel unique. Specifically, War Exhaustion. Neighpon does not have a large population, and that means losses on the fields of battle are going to be sorely felt at home. Spending stacks to take territory (in an offensive war, defensively you can probably get away with it to retake core provinces on your island) is a bad idea due to slow and/or expensive replenishment and the public order penalties that will accrue.
As such this is a very "micro" faction as your units have a multitude of special abilities to augment their fighting potential and misdirect the enemy.
Zebrica: Not so much a nation as a mess of alt-starts that share a race, I'd say. The playable Legendary Lords would naturally be the most powerful of them, and as you eat your neighboring Local Powers you gain some of their expertise in their specialty.
Libertalia: As a nation of pirates, this is more a "for the lulz" nation as a significant portion of your recruiting is either mercenaries from the Great Powers, or actually stealing their stuff either off the battlefield or from their training buildings when you sack the city they are in. Also as a nation of pirates, you do not declare war on nations in order to raid them, while they do need to declare on you in order to invade.
As a marine army, they get bonuses and abilities from staying near their ships be it bombardment, stealth due to weather manipulation, or what have you, making them a poor choice for world domination runs even with getting potential access to everyone's units.
Canterbury: Due to the possibilities raised in thread I can not actually say what they will definitively play like. From the outside they use a hi-lo mix of levies and Knights backed by powerful Caster Lords.
Maretonia: Internal instability personified as they take mechanics from Sombra (slaves) and Equestria (internal politics). The Houses likely play as tight vassals rather than parts of your nation, meaning you have to ask for their household troops and tithes while rewarding them for such via the spoils of the use of said assets.
Militarily they are similar to Equestrian forces, although with a more distinct hi-lo mix between basic mercenaries, good mercenaries and semi-professional House troops, and the Royal Guard and College units/Lords.
Yaks: Smashed between many more powerful nations this nation will have to pick a path to travel, as allies to resurgent Griffonia, mysterious Canterbury, or any of their other neighbors.
Minotaurs: Traders and sailors, the city states are more economical than militant with war typically being a tool of diplomacy over conquest.
Militarily, they are basically the Greeks. Hoplites in phalanxes, archers and slingers, triremes, and so on with the conceit that their Gods are tangible things that can give bonuses for following their Concepts, making for a well rounded empire with many possible play styles. Maybe they can turn to a more militant, Roman type empire with effort.
Changelings: Definitely a !FUN! empire to play, as their style focuses around meddling with the relations of other empires from your hidden crevices while fleshcrafting your troops and Lords into specialized clades rather than training a single body form to do different things.
Ok I will admit we don't KNOW for certain if they've plan on using I it on civilian cities, but the spell was from the begining designed to make da big booms.
The goal was to make a big explosion for destroying fortifications and cities, if they've only wanted to disrupt cloud based forts, then the incomplete version would have been enough instead of the heads of the project being disappointed it DIDNT rearrange the coast.
I mean they knew the cloud=boom ratio from their testing on small scale and the heads of the project saw that as a failure. That does not say good things about them.
Pretty interesting total war equestria take, though missing some unique features that would fit from our knowledge like sombra lacking dedicated commander units, but with enough morale it is only felt when going up against armies backed by experienced ones. Equestria, we are very aware of the good ole civil war between Luna and Celestia caused by jealousy and fame, which could be used to balance the fact they got 2 super lords and the elements of harmony which buffs both even more. (Civil war leads to fighting between the two, and when it ends, the elements of harmony would be taken out of the picture for a long time and techs being locked). Would give an interesting feel, with equestria starting poised to become a central power, with the specter of civil war sparked by the sisters which would force the nation to claw back, having lost much, with the remaining sister recovering emotionally,( big debuffs bringing her 'down to earth' ability wise which lessen with certain actions). But, if the tightrope is walked, it would become one of the top tier civs in the game, considering it could claw back even with the civil war under a good player, and even achieve world domination. The rest looks good, based on what little info we have.
Edit:In canon, the sisters were key players in equestria, with the nightmare moon event being remembered for a long time, and while not mentioned in much detail besides the sisters, there are very few ways that it could happen without sparking a full-blown civil war
Edit:In canon, the sisters were key players in equestria, with the nightmare moon event being remembered for a long time, and while not mentioned in much detail besides the sisters, there are very few ways that it could happen without sparking a full-blown civil war
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- Location
- Germany
Even if it´s the species that essentially created this fine nation? Don´t think so.
Aside from that, I only offered one example of possible boons.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We've put a lot of effort into ensuring that the citizens of this fine nation don't see things that way, including personally adopting a pony. We can try to change that, but even if we manage to thread the needle to keep it from hurting our non-griffon population it would probably affect the perceived legitimacy of Gwyndlyn's eventual regency.
- Location
- I think somewhere. I might be nowhere though
It's as I've been saying this whole time when arguing against the arguments for reviving the pantheon on the basis of every species having a religion - we don't HAVE a species identity. All of our gryphons already have their own religious identity founded in the various other religions. They aren't exactly atheists nor are they like the Jewish people without a temple. They are a large variety of different religions with only the oldest even practicing the Old Faith anymore. We have gryphons of the Crystal Heart cult, Yak shamanism, the Imperial Cult, etc. We don't really need to give them some kind of "identity" in the Old Faith because they already have a political identity of being a citizen of the empire first over species, and a spiritual identity of whatever they want in our non-state religion empire. Saying that the gryphons don't have an identity because of the lack of the old faith is like saying Norwegians don't have an identity for being mostly Christian instead of honoring Thor or Odin.
All trying to force a revival of the Old Faith does is try to separate our main race along religious lines from the other species.
- Location
- Greece
Thing is we are not trying to revive a pantheon.the followers of the old faith already existed,we just found ancient holy relics that atracted converts
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- Location
- I think somewhere. I might be nowhere though
...You do realize I mentioned that a few still exist right?
Did you only read the first sentence and not actually focus on what the actual meaning of what I was saying was?
- Location
- Greece
Saying that only the oldest practice the old gods is not true at all,if there are faithfull then those faithfull to the old gods will induct their children into the faith as well an that cycle will continue,that makes your argument invalid(for me at least)if the practicioners of the faith of the old gods were only old the faith would have disappeared which has not happened.
- Location
- Italy
I think you're right, except for one thing.
There ARE some gryph who worship the old gods, and even if it's not a majority it's not only the oldest ones.
I agree we definitely do not need, or even WANT, to push the ancient religion to a place of supremacy. There is no reason to.
There is nothing wrong with giving it a bit of attention/actions though, like we plan to do at least a bit for every religion.
Personally I'd prefer to focus on the crystal heart faith honestly. For once it's PROVEN to have tangible benefits, and I'm still kind of hoping that if we juice up the heart enough it might develop sapience and create an avatar to communicate with (kinda like the tree of harmony in season 8-9 of mlp)
Still, as of right now there are really only TWO faiths we should be wary about empowering too much.
The first is the emperor faith. The second is the church of the Lady of the Lake (for obvious reasons, at least until we understand what's up in Canterbury. Just in case).
Though of course if we don't use any action on that faith it's likely that, in time, some (maybe even many) of their children will slowly convert to the other more popular faiths.
Also nothing stops anyone from practicing more than one faith, or even none of them.
None of our faiths really contradict the others after all.
- Location
- I think somewhere. I might be nowhere though
Well yeah, that's not a LITERAL talk. You can find diversity in literally anything if you look hard enough. The point of language is to communicate meaning. Being literal actively obscures communication because there isn't really an "objective" language as everyone understands the same thing in different manners. The point is to pay attention to context and the whole of what someone is saying rather than being nitpicky about literal vs. contextual points.
The general point I was carrying across in that sentence is that only the oldest and most conservative were bothering to hold on to that faith with most of our people having converted to and found their identities in other faiths. The meaning that is communicating isn't untrue, because the meaning is found in the context of my arguing against Gleeman's idea that a religious identity unique to each species is at all necessary or even beneficial for the gryphon species's place within our empire. It's not, as they already have a religious identity and making a new one based on species lines will just cause potential division lines. Gleeman appears to be working on a kind of bias in that they believe it is that way, and as a result dismiss the political reality of our country and any implication that contradicts their firm belief that it is in any way as big a necessity (or even a necessity at all) as they think.
In summary, my recent statements haven't even been against ever taking any actions for the pantheon. They've explicitly been against the idea that it is "necessary" for gryphons to have a unique species religious identity within our empire when we have been focusing so hard on forging more of a civic nationalism-based empire than a religious nationalism or ethnic (species) nationalism one. That is why I stated this:
I set the context of what I was talking about from the start - not against ever taking those actions but against taking them on that basis. I do not think I have ever said anything against your guys' suggestion that it could be valuable on a pre-Discordian historical and techno-magical basis.
I am still heavily against this and I kinda wish you would stop advocating this. Obviously that doesn't mean anything. I just want to be honest instead of bottling up my frustrations.
We explicitly turned down the idea of a state religion with most votes going to "intervene only" and "completely secular". It doesn't matter how cool or beneficial it could be. We should stand by that decision and not overly favour any group. To do otherwise is a betrayal of the type of society we voted for, and the type of society we are building. I also kinda hope Questor will start giving actual negative push-back for the supposedly "neutral" imperial government showing blatant favoritism towards the Crystal faith above others.
Edit: Like, someone mentioned democracy previously. The Council is legitimately our most democratic prominent political institution seeing as we still run on a bureaucratic system with an absolute monarch and nobility ruling lesser lands, like that Archduke friend of the royal family that we haven't heard from since the unification. It should remain as a representative council instead of being a way to tilt things in favor of whatever we find most beneficial. Edit over
Also, the Neighpon faith has been implied by the lore to be easy to synthesize into our culture and faiths, which is one of many possible boni. You guys just won't vote to actually give any other relevant faiths tangible amounts of support.
Eh, while it's not a priority, I still rate it high fairly high. For one, it could have interesting political implications a hundred or so years from now if it manages to get off the ground. Secondly, it's important for maintaining loyalty to the emperor going forth into the future. You guys may have forgotten since it hasn't been relevant in so long, but this quest does have a factional loyalty system. It just hasn't been relevant for a long time since Garrick is universally beloved for reuniting the empire, defeating Sombra, and bettering everyone's lives. It won't always be like that though, because not every ruler will have such underdog stories going forth. Gawain probably won't have too much to worry about with loyalty since the empire is still riding high off of its many victories, but what about after him, and after that person, and so on? The Imperial Faith will provide us with a much-needed baseline and stability. We shouldn't overly favor it, but it should get more influence than it currently has.
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