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Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

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lockingbane said:
Eh, just roll piety in with magic and make it less religion and more "Magical science". After all in this setting "Gods" tend to be, more or less, just beings with ridiculous amounts of magic. Not much faith and divinity in that.
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Generally i believe that religion in this case is more like RL type religion.

Basically now we chose which religion to support, next time we chose treatment towards other religions, solve dogmatic disputes between different factions within one religion, set hierarchy and type of leadership within the religions.

Also religious influence can often translate to cultural and soft power influence.
 
Star said:
Basically now we chose which religion to support, next time we chose treatment towards other religions, solve dogmatic disputes between different factions within one religion, set hierarchy and type of leadership within the religions.
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Why not just decree freedom of religion so long as it abides certain laws?

Simple solution to a complex problem
 
well this is a world a magic so you could try to introduce it by having the interlude be spread out through the year by showing snippets where various groups from different faiths come to the king to ask if they could build a church/temple of their faith from griffons wanting a communal temple/crypt where many people could place their fallen love ones to rest and be care for priest and still be visited freely by their still living relatives, some crystal ponies who remember some old faiths practiced before Sombra took over asking if it would be ok to try and bring said faith back, and whatever other ideas you had have groups come in and explain what their faith is about. Have it that the king listens but mostly forgets about it do to more pressing concerns until one night while asleep he has a dream where he finds himself in his throne room and avatars representing each faith that he heard talked about through the year seem to show up and start to debate why their respective faith should be followed by the people. With the late former king (the one that died before we took over) representing ancestor worship, and others, sometimes otherworldly beings, representing the other faiths. Being a magic world the whole dream could end with the feeling that one is unsure if it was just a dream or something more in some way and that add to the weirdness we hear that other people had similar dreams that night which prompts a meeting on should the empire have an official faith or not.

just spit balling ideas, hope it helps.
 
If this is hard for you to get right I'm fine postponing it a turn or two if that helps give you time to write it. I'd like the Council and Piety votes but there's no rush.
 
I think the biggest issue is more of one of practicality and exposure than anything else.
The issue with many of the arguments, including the freedom of religion, though well thought out and I do appreciate the thought, is simply this:

There has not been a real religion in the Empire, Diamond Dogs, or even Crystal Empire since the fall. And there has not been need of one, nor has magic been a real issue. Pretty much all religions, if any, are small and very much so depending on the region. A point of fact would be the Ancestral worship practiced by the Griffons, or maybe the Religion of Love in the Crystal Empire. Plus, well- an Empire the size of Griffonnia is too large to have so many disparate cultures and religions, if any, so close to each other. And one religion overall never really works. The interlude should probably involve a lot of, well, arguing. Too much diversity, ironically, leads to a lot of arguing. It's a tough one, I will tell you that.



That being said.


I do believe that the Council of Nicaea should be less what religion we should take, or if we should have a piety option and more about diversity, in that the religions should have a conclave, and multiple opinions and options. A Dynasty of Drunkenness, by torroar, has the Piety options as, well, an inclusive option. Building temples to more, Sigmar, Ulric, Shallya, and such.

Sorry, too much rambling
 
In my opinion there are four options for religion:

1) Reintroduce the Old Griffon Religion used by the previous Empire.

2) Codify Ancestor Worship into a formal religious structure.

3) Create the Imperial Cult and have the Royal Lineage recognised as being blessed through the Crystal Heart (as it can be argued that deities in this world are merely those exposed to or capable of wielding incredibly powerful magic).

4) Establish a Cult of Reason style religion, with it being an apostate institution (Deities exist, but aren't worthy of worship as they are just as flawed as ordinary people, if not more so), instead celebrating the liberty, creativity and friendship of mortal races and how any odds can be overcome by working together.
 
Whumbly said:
In my opinion there are four options for religion:

1) Reintroduce the Old Griffon Religion used by the previous Empire.

2) Codify Ancestor Worship into a formal religious structure.

3) Create the Imperial Cult and have the Royal Lineage recognised as being blessed through the Crystal Heart (as it can be argued that deities in this world are merely those exposed to or capable of wielding incredibly powerful magic).

4) Establish a Cult of Reason style religion, with it being an apostate institution (Deities exist, but aren't worthy of worship as they are just as flawed as ordinary people, if not more so), instead celebrating the liberty, creativity and friendship of mortal races and how any odds can be overcome by working together.
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What this guy/gal/llama said essentially
 
Gaius Tyrannus said:
What this guy/gal/llama said essentially
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Just throwing things out there. Along with a ecclesiastical structure suggestion taken from EaW:


Emperor/Empress: Recognised as a the Head of Church either as Deity for a Figurehead to uphold the values of the Empire.

Archon: a Archbishop/Cardinal analogy who act as the collective leadership of the religious institution.

Prelate: Bishop analogy who oversee the religious institution with a define state or area of the Empire.

Priest/Priestess: Oversee the religious institution on a local level.

Cleric: Deacon analogy, assisting other religious members with their duties.

And that's not including any monastic orders that might pop up.
 
Whumbly said:
4) Establish a Cult of Reason style religion, with it being an apostate institution (Deities exist, but aren't worthy of worship as they are just as flawed as ordinary people, if not more so), instead celebrating the liberty, creativity and friendship of mortal races and how any odds can be overcome by working together.
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Didn't the French try this during the revolution?
 
Whumbly said:
Yep, along with that wacky calendar. I thought it would suit the Griffons as everything they've accomplished was through their own talons instead of magic. Why worship a deity for a possible blessing when you can build a miracle with your fellow Imperials?
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I mean.. eh?
I believe it would be more of Church or religion of agnostic beliefs or Atheism, though not straw atheism. And trying to convince people to worship something like that any way is.... hard.

I do appreciate your thoughts though.
 
Whumbly said:
Yep, along with that wacky calendar. I thought it would suit the Griffons as everything they've accomplished was through their own talons instead of magic. Why worship a deity for a possible blessing when you can build a miracle with your fellow Imperials?
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Didn't the guy who started it go crazy and had a date with the guillotine after he failed to kill himself.
 
Shadow-86 said:
Didn't the French try this during the revolution?
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I don't like the French approach. I want freedom of religion and separation of church and state, not outright opposition to public displays of faith.

I see people are concerned about possible foreign religious influence, but so far our country is not that religious. Even if religion takes hold we will be fine as long as no one religion becomes overwhelmingly dominant. I see no need to meddle in religion just yet. Even if we try to preventatively form a religion that is politically beneficial to us, we cannot control how future religious people will interpret their faith. We don't want to become the Catholic church with a protestant uprising.

I also think that the state sponsoring a religion is not much different from the state discriminating against every other religion by not treating them equally. It's basically institutionalizing discrimination.
 
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One way to approach this is to have Piety be like Diplomacy but with gods instead of nations. Such as say, offering to create a military academy to the God of War in exchange for their blessing in future battles (e.g. we get a few +10 bonuses that we can use in the next battle we fight). Or as a variant, instead of dealing with the gods directly we work with their respective churches. This would be more along the lines of promising a yearly donation of a few hundred gold to the church of the God of Healing in exchange for them sending a few priests who have been blessed with the ability to cast "lay on hands" to supplement the armies medics.

My second thought is that depending on how gods work in this verse we might want to try and create an artificial "God of the Empire". If gods are simply naturally occurring beings who attract worship due to their power then this idea doesn't work. If however, the gods are caused by belief then this is much more feasible. We start by coming up with the traits for the god; domain, personality, virtues, and then send a request to the population to take a few minutes out of their day to pray to this unborn god, possibly at one of the newly constructed temples where one may burn incense and offer (non-animal) sacrifices, all subsidized by the Crown of course. Given our popularity we shouldn't have much trouble getting a good chunk of the country to follow our request, even if it is somewhat unusual. If we fail we lose an (admittedly possibly significant) amount of money and possibly take a popularity hit if we're unlucky. If we succeed we get a literal god on our side, one which is loyal to the Empire by definition and would be invaluable in helping with magical projects and combating any powerful magic users along the likes of King Sombra we may encounter without relying on them being as tactically stupid as him.

Plus if the the god first manifests as a child we could adopt them since taking in orphans is apparently the Goldenfeather's newest family tradition.
 
Gods in this setting are little more than individuals with a stupid amount of magic to the degree their magic is so overpowered it can accomplish insane levels of stuff.

They are essentially just super mages rather than true divinity which is why I say we should just have piety be "Magic" rather than "Religion" like they do in a lot of other CK2 quests
 
While I'd rather avoid any Piety role sandtraps entirely, as I feel that introducing a whole new category of action this far in is... turbulent. I would suggest that one option would be something I'm working on an omake to properly present: The Virtuous Path.

Essentially a cross between Equestrian Elements of Harmony, philosophy, and moral code, the Path would be a means of growing and defining oneself and their actions within six primary Virtues: Integrity, Gratitude, Prosperity, Empathy, Trust, and Purpose.
 
Whumbly said:
In my opinion, there are four options for religion:

1) Reintroduce the Old Griffon Religion used by the previous Empire.

2) Codify Ancestor Worship into a formal religious structure.

3) Create the Imperial Cult and have the Royal Lineage recognised as being blessed through the Crystal Heart (as it can be argued that deities in this world are merely those exposed to or capable of wielding incredibly powerful magic).

4) Establish a Cult of Reason style religion, with it being an apostate institution (Deities exist, but aren't worthy of worship as they are just as flawed as ordinary people, if not more so), instead celebrating the liberty, creativity and friendship of mortal races and how any odds can be overcome by working together.
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These are good ideas, but if we do any of this we should also try to accommodate and respect other faiths and traditions, Griffon, Diamond Dog, Pony, Nepionese etc. We don't want to start conflicts by forcibly converting people to new faiths or earning the wrath of gods unnecessarily by arguing that they be abandoned. Even the suggestion, without intention, could do the damage, especially for more conservative reactionaries looking for any sign of discrimination and hostility who would have a field day.

I think what's most important before we start any social engineering is establishing a department or organisation that can settle differences and disputes between religions to prevent conflict and lay the foundation for religious policy and legislation in the Empire.
 
Even among nations with the same religion, there can be different levels of syncreticism.

Japan, as secular as it is, easily incorporates Shinto, Buddhist, and Christian practices into everyday life. And China had a big dynamic, and still does, between folk beliefs, Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.


We can have a gryphon faith to give defense against a proselytizing religion from a new "friendly" neighbor, as conversion can be a tool of conquest, but I don't think it will be as bad as our world, and can exist in a pluralist state.
 
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nexuseye said:
One way to approach this is to have Piety be like Diplomacy but with gods instead of nations. Such as say, offering to create a military academy to the God of War in exchange for their blessing in future battles (e.g. we get a few +10 bonuses that we can use in the next battle we fight). Or as a variant, instead of dealing with the gods directly we work with their respective churches. This would be more along the lines of promising a yearly donation of a few hundred gold to the church of the God of Healing in exchange for them sending a few priests who have been blessed with the ability to cast "lay on hands" to supplement the armies medics.

My second thought is that depending on how gods work in this verse we might want to try and create an artificial "God of the Empire". If gods are simply naturally occurring beings who attract worship due to their power then this idea doesn't work. If however, the gods are caused by belief then this is much more feasible. We start by coming up with the traits for the god; domain, personality, virtues, and then send a request to the population to take a few minutes out of their day to pray to this unborn god, possibly at one of the newly constructed temples where one may burn incense and offer (non-animal) sacrifices, all subsidized by the Crown of course. Given our popularity we shouldn't have much trouble getting a good chunk of the country to follow our request, even if it is somewhat unusual. If we fail we lose an (admittedly possibly significant) amount of money and possibly take a popularity hit if we're unlucky. If we succeed we get a literal god on our side, one which is loyal to the Empire by definition and would be invaluable in helping with magical projects and combating any powerful magic users along the likes of King Sombra we may encounter without relying on them being as tactically stupid as him.

Plus if the the god first manifests as a child we could adopt them since taking in orphans is apparently the Goldenfeather's newest family tradition.
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I love the idea of creating our very own god/goddess and then adopting them. I would vote for some kind of god/goddess of reason and science, I think.
 
We have a pretty crystal pony princess. Let's call her Goddess of the realm and hope for alicornization.
 
but what would she be alicorn of?
Gleaming Pearl - Alicorn of the Earth?
mother of cadence?
 
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Trimontar said:
but what would she be alicorn of?
Gleaming Pearl - alicorn of the earth?
mother of cadence?
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Um, cadence's ancestor is either frozen in crystal and somewhere in the catacombs beneath the crystal palace. I THINK she had a sister or something that Candace was related to distantly from pre-discord times. The former queen never had any children though so I seriously doubt it
 
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