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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Jyn Ryvia said:
@BoneyM would it be possible to create an action like such

[ ] Create Two 'collections' of the books and rubbings, one for the library, and then return the other as well as the originals to the Asur's family through the embassy.
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Once the library's up and running and you have scribes on call, sure.

The Phoenixian said:
Right, this conversation reminds me, there's a thought I had some time ago but, IIRC, decided to wait until the expedition was over and we were in regular turns again to broach it. Now that we're here...

@BoneyM You and the thread talked a while back about Windherder needing an AP to start it off. For that start off, and just talking about from the issue of author/quest runner issues, when it comes to Windherder, would you want us to start looking into it with something vague/broad and general, like:

"Investigate how the winds of magic influence each other."

(And since more detail is probably needed but I can't think how to compact it into the above sentence, I figure it would be something like Mathilde paying with low complexity spells, enchantments and small concentrations/streams of magic, and carefully observing how they were affected by each other's presence and actions, without any particular goal save going through a broad range of observations. And I see it as distinct from the existing option in that one sounds more like being about forcing it, while this is about learning how they interact when mostly left to their own devices, but in proximity.)

Or would it be better for your purposes to do something more goal-focused/concrete like:

"Investigate how the magic in Burning Shadows is influenced by different magical light sources." Thus having more focus on the methods and/or goals.

(Or, for that matter, if both broad types of approaches are viable from a writing perspective and just subject to player judgement as to which is better. Or neither and I'm on the wrong track here.)

And yeah, you can take both or either of those as action suggestions if they work, even if the latter doesn't excite me. (It feels like a good example of the kind of approach, but I'm not sure if it's something we'd actually want to do. Alas, I've completely drawn a blank on desirable beginner goals.)
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"Investigate how the magic in Burning Shadows is influenced by different magical light sources." This would be fine, but honestly all it would take is 'enchant something with X and Y' where X and Y are from separate Winds and one of those Winds is Ulgu. Literally try it and find out. The part where it gets tricky is where someone immediately leaps to gaming out every conceivable combination of battle magics or some shit and then drops it altogether when I have to beat them over the head with 'walk before you run'. And then observers come away from that exchange with the idea that Windherder is this bizarre and mysterious realm where nothing is ever possible and then we start all over again in a couple of weeks.

Try it and find out. When I say that, it's not me saying 'fuck you'. It's me saying the only practical way to know what will happen when you do this thing is to actually do it. That is the case here. Pick any combination of spells, even at random if you have to, and Try It. In doing so, you will Find Out.

(sorry if this comes across harshly, but apparently something fundamental is not getting across here and I'm trying to make it as clear as possible)
 
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[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible
-[X] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[X] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[x] DUCK: Continue to work with Panoramia with implementing the Waaaghsoak Mushrooms as an aid to spellcasting.
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Cult of Karnos, Talabecland)
-[X] Suggest Eike spend a few weeks in Karak Eight Peaks, so she can grow familiar with Dwarves and their ways.
-[X] Enchant an item with a Fiendishly Complex or easier spell (The Dammerlichtreiter Thurible, 3 College Favor for Ward Against Abomination enchantment)
-[X] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
-[X] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
--[X] COIN: Gambler
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[X] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold

Right, I'm not going to be arguing particularly hard for this because I don't have the energy, but I want to investigate windherder and I'm not particularly attached to swording so let's try it and find out.
 
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible

[KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril
 
Fayhem said:
Alright. I've promised myself that I'm not going to fall off the wagon and start full-on arguing about library location again. But just to get this off my chest. A library for the ages should be IMPRESSIVE. Depending on how successful we ultimately are with Waystones (and to be fair, I actually am hopeful there) this could be the most enduring part of Mathilde's legacy (you know, besides the recovered Holds :V). And every time I read an argument for choosing Kvinn-Wyr over the Silver Tower for "accessibility" I hear a version of this dialogue in my mind:

Future Library Staff: Welcome to Kron-Azril-Ungol, the Archive of the Silvery Depths!
Scholar Using Library: Thanks, I'm truly happy to be here - the size of your collection is legendary. Archive of the Silvery Depths, huh? Is it called that because it's located underground here?
Staff: No, we actually could have put it in a number of locations. For a while, that giant tower you probably noticed across the valley was in contention, but we ultimately settled on Kvinn-Wyr here.
Scholar: Huh, why is that? The tower was certainly more impressive.
Staff: Well, we wanted it to be accessible.
Scholar: ...
Staff: ...Ma'am?
Scholar: You wanted it to be accessible.
Staff: ...Yes? Is that... bad? Your tone makes it sound like you think that's bad.
Scholar: But I guess the dwarves made you put it in Karak Eight Peaks in order to have it built.
Staff: Well, no, technically we could have put it nearly anywhere and King Belegar would have gotten it built.
Scholar: So you chose to put it in Karak Eight Peaks. And you wanted it to be accessible.
Staff: I mean-
Scholar: I live in Altdorf. I traveled almost fifteen hundred miles to get here. Half of it through the Badlands.
Staff: Well-
Scholar: Our caravan was ambushed by greenskins.
Staff: I mean, that's certainly-
Scholar: Twice.
Staff: I'm sorry to-
Scholar: The horse I bought in Altdorf was eaten by fish. I didn't know fish could eat horses, but I'll never be able to forget it now.
Staff: Oh, yeah, the Skull River does-
Scholar: Did you know that a dying horse screams just like a woman? Sometimes I wake up from nightmares now about my wife, who I had to leave in Altdorf, being eaten alive by fish.
Staff: I really don't know how to engage with that.
Scholar: You could have built it anywhere. You could have built it in Altdorf, and I wouldn't have to dream about fish murdering my wife, or worry that our youngest son won't remember my face when I come home. But you chose to build it in Karak fucking Eight Peaks, and you. Wanted it. To be accessible.
Staff: Well, we are about two miles closer to the inns and markets in Karag Nar from here than we would have been in the Tower.
Scholar: ...
Staff: ...
Scholar: You know what, I think I'm actually just going to go look for one of those inns now. I think I need to lie down for a while after this conversation.
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picklepikkl said:
...how exactly would he have done that? Belegar can throw around buckets of cash money, but long-term institutional support is not actually something money can buy. If we wanted that, we did have to build it in Karak Eight Peaks.

"Why Eight Peaks, Barak Varr would be a way better location" was a common argument during the first Boon vote where people voted to bank it.
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Valmond said:
I really dislike the "i'll have characters act as stupid and obtuse as possible in order to support my argument" conversation debate style.
Not only is anyone questioning where, or why, a Lady Magister decides to build her mega library something i find unlikely, i really doubt an average staff member is going to be able to answer those questions.

Scholar: Why here.
Staff: Because Lady Magister wanted it so.
Scholar: I have no more questions.
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DragonParadox said:
Convenience matters not just to foreign scholars who walked from Aldorf, but to the people who live in the Karak, which is to say the staff and all local scholars. Very few people are going to like dragging themselves up all those steps because the tower looks impressive. We are going to have to move a ton of books in there for one and we can't precisely have them all air lifted.
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In addition to all that, reminder that the first priority of the library is to be everlasting, accessibility is only the second priority.

Putting it in a place that took centuries to fall when the continents were rearranged (a structural weakness the Dawi would undoubtedly fix, because Dawi, so even that won't make it fall again) is priority number 1, because it'll make it as safe and long-lasting as possible. Accessibility is priority number 2, and must be thought of only once priority number 1 is satisfied. To call accessibility stupid because K8P is not accessible to most scholars is to misunderstand the play of priorities here- the intent is not to make it as accessible as humanly possible, it is to make it as accessible as humanly possible AFTER we have made it as safe as humanly possible (while still allowing visitors), and only after that.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Another argument for the Silver Tower:

the other two great libraries of warhammer are towers and elf made.

it just makes sense for the dwarfs to try and make their own tower of books, but better.
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With all respect, 'the elves do it' is the worst argument for persuading Dwarfs to do anything. Tower libraries are a good tradition, and it would be great for the Dawi to one-up the elven ones. But IMO mountains are better than towers. Because mountains are far more fun to climb than towers are. :p
Chlof said:
Right, I'm not going to be arguing particularly hard for this because I don't have the energy, but I want to investigate windherder and I'm not particularly attached to swording so let's try it and find out.
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You have my axe sword approval vote!

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible

[X] Plan Slacking with Shrooms
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Divine Vitae
[X] Plan New Foundations
[X] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley
 
BoneyM said:
"Investigate how the magic in Burning Shadows is influenced by different magical light sources." This would be fine, but honestly all it would take is 'enchant something with X and Y' where X and Y are from separate Winds and one of those Winds is Ulgu. Literally try it and find out. The part where it gets tricky is where someone immediately leaps to gaming out every conceivable combination of battle magics or some shit and then drops it altogether when I have to beat them over the head with 'walk before you run'. And then observers come away from that exchange with the idea that Windherder is this bizarre and mysterious realm where nothing is ever possible and then we start all over again in a couple of weeks.

Try it and find out. When I say that, it's not me saying 'fuck you'. It's me saying the only practical way to know what will happen when you do this thing is to actually do it. That is the case here. Pick any combination of spells, even at random if you have to, and Try It. In doing so, you will Find Out.

(sorry if this comes across harshly, but apparently something fundamental is not getting across here and I'm trying to make it as clear as possible)
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He'll, we've literally got a viable option in the approved spell creation list with the Dammerlichtreiter's Thurible. We just have to try it.
 
[X] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley

[X] Plan Redshirt v3

[X] Plan Slacking with Shrooms

[X] Plan Redshirt with Mushrooms

[X] Plan Papers, last job, and our non-suspicious friend
 
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[X] Plan Redshirt with Mushrooms
[KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril
 
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible

The only option with 'tongs' that I'm at all okay with - there's a synergy possible between the 'tongs' action and windherding, but it's one where the thing we know works (windherding) should come first, so that we have a baseline.
 
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords

[X] [KAU] In Kvinn-Wyr, with an entrance from the Eastern Valley
 
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[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible

The thurible would actually be a good showcase of what WEB-MAT can do, get people interested.

[x] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril
 
[X] Plan Redshirt with Mushrooms

[X] [KAU] In the Silver Tower, an ancient structure on the southwestern face of Karagril
 
[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and a Thurible

[X] Plan Efficiency, EIC, and Swords

I don't mind getting multiple long-standing experiments at once. It's definitely better than even swording harder. Multi-wind projects for the win!
 
Do we want to do the windherder/thurible thing with a -10 overwork malus? I thought we were going to use branch collage actions to research it as well? Why do it now when we can do it with a dedicated research action next turn? Or am I misunderstanding something?
 
I'm not going to approval vote the Thurible plan for two reasons:
  • Doing super experimental enchanting with a -10 to everything sounds very bad, especially when we have to pay CF for the non-Grey magic enchanter (increasing the odds that the action fails and we waste our CF, which we are currently low on)
  • While the Dammerlichtreiter Thurible is very cool, for a first try at Windherding I think doing something as complex as an enchantment based off one of our Arcane Marks is a bad idea. I much prefer Fayhem's idea here:
Fayhem said:
If we want to make something for him with Windherder as a baby-enchantment milk run, how about, I dunno, a combo of Shadowcloak and The Wilds Undisturbed on an item. Boosts his stealth with Shadowcloak and since The Wilds Undisturbed is described as "you and several touched creatures can move freely through wilderness and leave no trail" it either lets him or him and a few buddies do that, thereby at least freeing him from having to pay attention to and spend time on covering his trail and moving through wilderness terrain, and potentially letting him extend that to a few allies. Very applicable to his skillset, relatively unchallenging to make since it's a Relatively Simple and a Moderately Complicated spell, and much easier to explain why it seemed like a good idea to make that if the worst happens and it wound up in someone else's hands.
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As Boney said, let's walk before we run.
 
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