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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Valmond said:
Chaos gods do not rely on worship as far as i'm aware.
They like to get it, but it's not necessary for them the same way it seems to be to the other gods.
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Isn't their whole motivation for destroying the world that they don't want that worship, because like all the gods in the Warp their worshippers' perception of them shapes them in turn, and they don't want that to happen?
 
Glau said:
So, interestingly enough, this suggests that we can have a non-chaos god of schemes, or a non-chaos god of sex and striving.

Maybe the way to win the world is to raise up non-chaos versions of the chaos gods and steak their worship?
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IIRC in previous times this idea has come up before it got kiboshed due to the fact that this basically requires a newly raised/worshiped god to shank one of the Four in a kidney and run away with their valuables - and the power dynamic is such that it's far more likely for the Chaos God to go "Yum, free meal" before nomming the non-chaos god than the other way around.
 
Glau said:
So, interestingly enough, this suggests that we can have a non-chaos god of schemes, or a non-chaos god of sex and striving.

Maybe the way to win the world is to raise up non-chaos versions of the chaos gods and steak their worship?
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I think there is already a god of hedonism, one of the proscribed non-chaos ones, but I cannot for the life of me recall the name.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Isn't their whole motivation for destroying the world that they don't want that worship, because like all the gods in the Warp their worshippers' perception of them shapes them in turn, and they don't want that to happen?
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Pretty sure they don't have a motivation for destroying the world. Outside of End Times it's not really shown to be something they're working towards it's just something that might happen if they were to win. Their goal is more Chaos.

Notably if they just didn't want to be worshipped they could have ignored the Polar Gates and stayed wherever it is they come from.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Isn't their whole motivation for destroying the world that they don't want that worship, because like all the gods in the Warp their worshippers' perception of them shapes them in turn, and they don't want that to happen?
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I think chaos motivation for destroying the world is "shiny", and nothing more.
I'm not sure chaos even wants to destroy the world, it is just what is going to happen as an outcome of their actions.
 
Since Travelsalot answered that, while looking through the list of minor gods I'm just struck by how many gods of fertility there are. 5 gods, 4 if you exclude the Halfling goddess, and this is not including Rhya. Haletha, Ahalt, Dyrath and Narvorga. Hyacinth is the Halfling one.
 
storryeater said:
...Why is Dionysus proscribed? Really, wtf? Like, I love Ranald, but societally, why would Ranald be allowed and the Dionysus expy not be?
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Because Ranald is more dangerous: When you make worshipping Ranald illegal you get a rebellion. When you make worshipping Vylmar illegal you get a bunch of drunk folks going "ah well, I'mma have fun anyway".
 
storryeater said:
So is Khaine, and he is proscribed in the Empire. Sure, it doesn't get rid of him, but it does make worshipping him grounds for legal action.
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Khaine has little to no followers among humans i think, and humans have plenty of war gods already.
Ranald is the god of luck, and everyone calls for him at some point.
Ranald is not proscribed on the reasoning of "better have him in pissing out than out pissing in".
 
storryeater said:
...Why is Dionysus proscribed? Really, wtf? Like, I love Ranald, but societally, why would Ranald be allowed and the Dionysus expy not be?
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Because Witch Hunters reckoned that the Cult of Vylmar was just a gateway/front to a Slaaneshi cult. From what I recall from Tome of Salvation, Empire theologians also couldn't find where the Cult's strictures and writings had even sprung up from, so the Cult didn't really have much in the way of legitimacy beyond the patronage of nobles and wealthy merchants.

Needless to say, they were pretty quick to abandon ship when the Cult of Sigmar at large started glaring at them and reaching for the hammer.
 
kingreaper said:
Because Ranald is more dangerous: When you make worshipping Ranald illegal you get a rebellion. When you make worshipping Vylmar illegal you get a bunch of drunk folks going "ah well, I'mma have fun anyway".
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That is very fair.

Although I need to note out of sheer pedantry that while this is true for Dionysus expy Vylmar , pissing off actual Dionisus would be a lot more dangerous, wherever one talks about the mythological god or his cult.

Valmond said:
Khaine has little to no followers among humans i think, and humans have plenty of war gods already.
Ranald is the god of luck, and everyone calls for him at some point.
Ranald is not proscribed on the reasoning of "better have him in pissing out than out pissing in".
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Fair... although if you think that guy is pissing, having Khaine pissing out would be better than having him pissing in too.

Sir_Travelsalot said:
Because Witch Hunters reckoned that the Cult of Vylmar was just a gateway/front to a Slaaneshi cult. From what I recall from Tome of Salvation, Empire theologians also couldn't find where the Cult's strictures and writings had even sprung up from, so the Cult didn't really have much in the way of legitimacy beyond the patronage of nobles and wealthy merchants.

Needless to say, they were pretty quick to abandon ship when the Cult of Sigmar at large started glaring at them and reaching for the hammer.
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Well, hope they were correct, for if they were wrong they neutered one of the best weapons against Slaaneshi influence.
 
Valmond said:
Khaine has little to no followers among humans i think, and humans have plenty of war gods already.
Ranald is the god of luck, and everyone calls for him at some point.
Ranald is not proscribed on the reasoning of "better have him in pissing out than out pissing in".
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The Cult of Khaine (human) is a significant part of the human pantheon and sometimes considered one of the Classical Gods similarly to Verena and Morr. He's outlawed, but Khainites are in every major city in every human settlement.
 
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storryeater said:
Fair... although if you think that guy is pissing, having Khaine pissing out would be better than having him pissing in too.
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Gods act mostly through their followers. So as long as Khaine can't gather large enough support to be impossible to actively suppress, he can be suppressed.

Codex said:
The Cult of Khaine (human) is a significant part of the human pantheon and sometimes considered on the Classical Gods similarly to Verena and Morr. He's outlawed, but Khainites are in every major city in every human settlement.
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Interesting *googles*.
Yeah, they seem lot more limited than Ranalds worshippers.
I'm sure there are large numbers of them, but empire is a big place so large numbers can be a statistical blip.
While everyone calls on Ranald eventually, either for luck or help in lying, not everyone commits murders, and it does not seem Khaine is interested in stopping you from being murdered.
 
BoneyM said:
[ ] Khaine: God of Blood, Battle and Murder, believed by some to be the brother of Morr. Khaine cults sometimes crop up among soldiers and mercenaries, and though made infamous by the worship of the Dark Elves, the High and Wood Elves also pay homage to him. It's the sort of thing best kept to oneself.
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I remembered this from one of the earliest posts funny enough. Khaine was an option for Mathilde to worship alongside all the other Elder and Classical Gods, which is certainly something.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Because Witch Hunters reckoned that the Cult of Vylmar was just a gateway/front to a Slaaneshi cult. From what I recall from Tome of Salvation, Empire theologians also couldn't find where the Cult's strictures and writings had even sprung up from, so the Cult didn't really have much in the way of legitimacy beyond the patronage of nobles and wealthy merchants.

Needless to say, they were pretty quick to abandon ship when the Cult of Sigmar at large started glaring at them and reaching for the hammer.
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I mean where did the scriptures of the cult of Ulric spring up from? They were all howling barbarians back in the day so it's not like you have some ultimate proof that he is not a front for Khorne. You have the violence, the canines, he comes from the north where the winters are harshest, he is even worshiped in Norsca among the tribes that give all manner of names to the Four, clearly Ulric is the blood god

...and by extension Sigmar was a Chaos Champion :V
 
me.me.here said:
IIRC in previous times this idea has come up before it got kiboshed due to the fact that this basically requires a newly raised/worshiped god to shank one of the Four in a kidney and run away with their valuables - and the power dynamic is such that it's far more likely for the Chaos God to go "Yum, free meal" before nomming the non-chaos god than the other way around.
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But isn't this just begging the question of why that doesn't happen to the evil elven gods?
 
Glau said:
But isn't this just begging the question of why that doesn't happen to the evil elven gods?
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I think it is because the elven gods are elven gods, they all stick together. Khorne cannot eat Khanine without worrying about say Ereth Khial and maybe even Asyrian and the rest of his host. The elves understand that even the dark gods have a place in their lives so it makes sense that on the tides of the warp they would have a certain solidarity against outside attack.
 
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