Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Yeah, it's definitely feasible for us to take out a Karak on our own in 1-2 hours /s
Why on Earth would we have two hours?

Maximum speed for the expedition is 4 miles an hour for ten hours- 40 miles.
Mathilde travels at 25 miles an hour on a shadow steed, and can go for a long time. They could leave go for several days and we would be caught up in a flash.
 
Binding a demon proves guilt in and of itself, tho, and Morghur certainly counts.
Binding a not-really-Daemon would be enough for the Karaz Ankor, yeah.

For the Colleges, we think at least four Colleges do that on the regular.
Poor Egrimm, people just seem to have a problem with that guy. He's been a model of inter-College cooperation.
Frankly, Mathilde could learn a thing or to from him.
 
It doesn't work in general- in specific cases it works quite well indeed. If you take a hammer to someones kneecaps, they are going to start spilling real quick- the issue is having enough skill to balance the threat of pain, with inflicting pain, and finding the point where they start making stuff up to keep the pain away because they have nothing else to give.
I'm not here to read torture advocacy.
 
Yeah no, whatever Dum has done, their pet guard monster still:
• Emits a fuckload of Dhar in fite mode.
• Actively mutates people exposed to it.
• Eats people.

They didn't purify Morghur, they just leashed him.

That's sketch as fuck even by Grey College standards, nevermind Empire standards, nevermind Dwarf standards.

They kickflipped too greedily and too deep, and I no longer believe it's possible to "clear their names", as it were. If we gather more information it'll be to sate our own curiosity more than anything, since the tactical value of learning more will be pretty limited anyway given how far Dum is from anywhere of importance.
Yeah, anything further would be satisfying our own curiosity. Which we can do on our own time (flying dreadnought second-expedition).
 
That's actually a pretty good point - we just watched several nobodies run up to Morghur and get in a fight with him, and only a few died? That's really not what one would expect.
I noticed that as well. I think it's mostly down to good tactics on the part of the Kvellige. The band were probably all capable warriors, who were doing a planned hit-and-run specifically against Morghur. Morghur is powerful, but he can only kill people so fast. And once reinforcements came and Morghur's aura came online, the riders disengaged as soon as they could. Casualties were low because the riders came in with a clear plan to keep the battle as short as possible– and that plan seems to have gone off pretty well.

Notably, Morghur doesn't seem to have even attempted pursuit, which means disengaging from him is probably as simple as running away from Dum really fast.
 
Yeah no, whatever Dum has done, their pet guard monster still:
• Emits a fuckload of Dhar in fite mode.
• Actively mutates people exposed to it.
• Eats people.

They didn't purify Morghur, they just leashed him.

That's sketch as fuck even by Grey College standards, nevermind Empire standards, nevermind Dwarf standards.

They kickflipped too greedily and too deep, and I no longer believe it's possible to "clear their names", as it were. If we gather more information it'll be to sate our own curiosity more than anything, since the tactical value of learning more will be pretty limited anyway given how far Dum is from anywhere of importance.
I don't want to get surprised by Black Orcs 2.0, this time it's beastmen, and its possible that their divine ally was responsible, in which case it might be fine, since dwarven allies are held to much lower standards than dwarves.
 
Just because he believes that doesn't mean he is willing to talk. He wasn't interested when he left and it doesn't seem like he has changed his mind since. Nor are any of the other dwarfs interested in filling us in.
He's not going to tell us fucking state secrets, tho.
It's not really secrets at this point, it's just stuff we don't know the specifics of. Any secret-keeping really lost any purpose when we crested that ridge and saw Morghur.
The grey college understands realpolitik, but they have their lines. Fundamentally, binding beastmen and Morgur is like using Necromancy, but turned up to 11. Things the college would and has executed people for. Can we really in good faith claim to be similar when our organization says that doing what they did is never excusable despite all the other shady shit we do? I don't think so.
Oh, for sure. But Borek knows exactly as much about the Grey College as we've told him.

The overarching point is that it's not even going to take a roll to get past the beastmen now we're confident in using magic, and talking to the dwarves isn't dangerous. It's less dangerous than infiltrating Skaven strongholds for loot, and Mathilde has explicitly gotten much better at it since then.
 
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Morghur does not mutate anyone unless they are extremely close and provocative. Thus, Mathilde is able to use magic,
Morghur has two mutation effects we've been concerned about. The 'inflicts mutations in melee' one does seem shackled in some way.
The other, 'Spellcasting turns you into a Chaos Spawn from a standing start' one we have no evidence either way about.
Risking exposure to that, for mere hours-at-most of investigation, is such a bad call.
 
New theory time now that we have more data points:

No clue as to whose divine energy that was, but I think I know what's up with Morghur's involvement in this. After 2240 when Morghur was killed, but before the Waste's encroached Karag Dum found a young Morghur, who had been born to Kurgan parents. They probably started worshipping him and the Dwarves of Dum noticed, sallied forth killing everyone they could and taking Morghur, and keeping him as a pet in the Karags proverbial basement. This is why Borek was not even surprised when he saw Morghur, as a member of the royal clan of Dum he knew that one of their contingencies was to use Morghur as a guard dog. As for where the other beastmen came from, even though the current crop is naturally born, they could have easily captured humans and mutated them into generation 1 of the beastmen.
 
Also, even if this started out well intentioned, it has become essentially a training ground/gacha for chaos champions and Dum has not modified their defenses to stop this. To me that's an even clearer sign that Dum is unrecoverable and we should immediately retreat.
 
they might be unable to communicate with us without physically sending a messenger, which is risky when there are beastmen and kurgans about. making an alliance with whatever gods might not be grudgeworthy depending on the specific god, since dwarves seem a lot looser about what behavior is acceptable for an ally of the dwarves as opposed to an actual dwarf.
Borek literally just refused to communicate with us, then passed by the beastmen completely unharmed. If whatever they were doing wasn't grudgeworthy, then why did Borek say
"We did the best we could," he says. "When it comes time to tell the rest of the Karaz Ankor what has become of us, please tell them that as well. May the Ancestors forgive us."
They just walked passed the beastmen, they could communicate with us, and what possible interpretation of the above exists that doesn't mean they've fallen?
 
For the Colleges, we think at least four Colleges do that on the regular.

There's, ah, a rather large difference between a Wisdom's Asp or a Red Rider or whatever and literally Morghur.

Notably, my understanding is that Apparitions are not actually made of Dhar- if they were no amount of 'well technically' would save users of the Golden Hounds from the stake.
 
Borek literally just refused to communicate with us, then passed by the beastmen completely unharmed. If whatever they were doing wasn't grudgeworthy, then why did Borek say

They just walked passed the beastmen, they could communicate with us, and what possible interpretation of the above exists that doesn't mean they've fallen?
The fact that he begs the ancestors for forgiveness, and also hasn't been here for 200 years, and also if we assume that whatever dwarves are sad about is unforgivable to the Karaz Ankor we would no longer have a Karaz Ankor
 
There's, ah, a rather large difference between a Wisdom's Asp or a Red Rider or whatever and literally Morghur.

Notably, my understanding is that Apparitions are not actually made of Dhar- if they were no amount of 'well technically' would save users of the Golden Hounds from the stake.

Teclis would not have given the Gold College Ghenna's Golden Hounds if they were actually demons. Teclis said it's alright so it must be, otherwise, the colleges are fucked.
 
Binding a not-really-Daemon would be enough for the Karaz Ankor, yeah.

For the Colleges, we think at least four Colleges do that on the regular.
If the gold college showed us Cor Dum in their basement when we asked about apparitions, I'd be screaming to immediately run to Dragomas to level their entire college and I'd be shocked if he didn't immediately go all hands on deck for it.
 
The fact that he begs the ancestors for forgiveness, and also hasn't been here for 200 years, and also if we assume that whatever dwarves are sad about is unforgivable to the Karaz Ankor we would no longer have a Karaz Ankor
There is a pretty big leap between "something the dwarves are sad about" and a Karak with a reputation to being up to nasty shit is being protected by Morghur + his army of beastmen and is refusing to communicate.
 
Ouf, lots of information to digest from the update.

You have to wonder what it means that Cor-Dum fights alone. To me, it may indicate that he wants to avoid beastmen casualities. Which would make a lot of sense if both Cor-Dum and the beastmen are "mutated" dwarves. The Omegahugger theory then becomes pretty convincing, only it's all or a least a part of Karag Dum who... converted.

In this theory, whether or not there are dwarves remaining they probably wouldn't want to show themselves to the barbarians.

The results of the battle also support the hypotheses where Cor-Dum's aura isn't hostile by default.

Investigating has a good chance of bringing some last minute pieces to the puzzle :
- Seeing the beastmen up close and if they look like mutated dwarves,
- Seeing how the beastmen live (religious altars, etc.),
- Seeing if the Karak's entrance seem abandonned or used.

Those are just the low hanging fruits from a surface investigation, but even if we just get awnsers to those questions it would probably be possible to figure things out in time. Of course, we might have to "say" we didn't find anything depending on the results but I still think it's worth it.

On the other hand, I don't think speaking with Cor-Dum seems an option as seeing him feast on human flesh gave me the impression that he was pretty feral. But if the beastmen are not hostile we could try to talk to one during our infiltration, maybe.

[ ] Last minute
[ ] LAST: Attempt to infiltrate Karag Dum
[ ] LAST: Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
 
Yeah no, whatever Dum has done, their pet guard monster still:
• Emits a fuckload of Dhar in fite mode.
• Actively mutates people exposed to it.
• Eats people.

They didn't purify Morghur, they just leashed him.

That's sketch as fuck even by Grey College standards, nevermind Empire standards, nevermind Dwarf standards.

They kickflipped too greedily and too deep, and I no longer believe it's possible to "clear their names", as it were. If we gather more information it'll be to sate our own curiosity more than anything, since the tactical value of learning more will be pretty limited anyway given how far Dum is from anywhere of importance.
The "wait for a day" option has removed some of the more hopeful possibilities re. the chaos/dhar taint being removed, so that was very useful imo - and is good info to bring back! Might not have been the optimal choice but looking back from this point, I'm confident that it was better than leaving immediately.

I'm genuinely torn between leaving now and trying to infiltrate.

edit: the vote setup is very clever way of doing some sort of "one-transfer-deep; approval transferable vote". BeepSmile is impressed with the good-think-idea thing.


[x] Last minute
[x] LAST: Attempt to infiltrate Karag Dum
 
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There is a pretty big leap between "something the dwarves are sad about" and a Karak with a reputation to being up to nasty shit is being protected by Morghur + his army of beastmen and is refusing to communicate.
We've been told that their nasty reputation is due to a difference in naming scheme and the dwarves wanting to assume the worst of them.
 
That's admittedly very pithy, but apparitions neither emit Dhar nor are... well, a beastman/chaos demigod.
Apparitions are creatures of Chaos. Their blood is a rainbow of all magic Winds in a way that somehow isn't either Dhar or Qhaysh.
"Lady Magister?" Sir Joerg says cautiously. "I've worked with Esbern and Seija long enough to know that mysteries like this are as attractive to Wizards as a hot dinner and a warm bed in winter, but every moment spent here is less food, more danger, and more exposure to fel energies. The Expedition has reached Karag Dum and has enough information to reach a conclusion about their fate. Our responsibility now is to return with that information."
Mathilde: "Well reasoned, Sir Joerg."
Sir Joerg: "..."
Mathilde: "What?"
Egrimm, /delicately: "You do appear to be boiling over with ulgu, Lady Magister."
Mathilde, /airily: "Pay it no mind, happens all the time."
Sir Joerg: "I was rather more worried about the crazy eyes."

Mathilde, /crazy eyes: "I'm fine."
Sir Joerg: "Right... then we are all agreed it is time to head for home?"
"Yes." "Agreed." "I wish... but yes." "Indeed."
Mathilde's chair, /contains a note reading 'Don't worry, I'll catch up!' with a little heart drawn on.
 
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