Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Deathbybunnies]

Are they? I'm really not sure -- at all -- they have any compunctions about killing manling wizards. Remember Vlag's reaction, where they didn't even think the Empire had wizards? Same problem.

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They've just had Borek arrive, and the only groups around are who he came with and Chaos tribesmen, which we do not look like.

If there's a worse option than sneaking past him with magic, deliberately bringing our constantly-highly-magical, already-mutated-by-Ulgu self near to him might be it.

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Boy, if only we'd seen him literally reach out and touch someone and fail to Chaos spawn them, an intrinsic part of the same legends you're worried about, to demonstrate that the danger is, one way or another, not real.

Are we a dwarf? Are we a dwarf of Dun? How do we know that happened to Borek would happen to us?

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Despite what the Ancestor Conclave may say, we're not a Dwarf. We're a more-mutable-than most member of the highly-mutable human species.
If it's KickFlip Valaya Rune effect, it won't apply to humans, as the local humans are the Kurgan Chaos Worshippers who keep attacking the Karak.

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Dwarven magical resistance is not immune to Morghur's Chaos spawnification, which happens if you even get near him, never mind touch him!

It's explicitly a logic puzzle! Morghur is outright demonstrated to not be doing the "turn people into Chaos Spawn thing"! The very land and trees around him are not mutating into horror! I think I've got to go to bed, it's just upsetting me that people are straight-up ignoring this, because it doesn't fit their belief that this is the real Morghur! It's distressingly similar to current politics, and that is me done for the day.

EDIT: Recent events make this a much more offensive statement than was meant - I was referring to modern political discourse in general, not the US's coup attempt.

 

[Alliterate]

With our belt we're reasonably well protected though. Not fully, but I think it's a pretty good bet.

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The odds are too long for me, the consequences of it being a bad bet far too great, and the pay off not significant enough.
Chaos Spawn Mathilde is possibly the worst way I can imagine the quest ending.

Though being killed by a beastmen warband with her back against a tree would suck, too.

 

[Saidoro]

[X] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day

The clear worst option is attempting to infiltrate, but I'm not convinced we're actually done here yet. There's no indication we're on a pressing clock yet.

It's explicitly a logic puzzle! Morghur is outright demonstrated to not be doing the "turn people into Chaos Spawn thing"! The very land and trees around him are not mutating into horror! I think I've got to go to bed, it's just upsetting me that people are straight-up ignoring this, because it doesn't fit their belief that this is the real Morghur! It's distressingly similar to current politics, and that is me done for the day.

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You can't prove a negative in this way. The observations we have of Borek not turning into a chaos spawn and the trees not being mutated in a way that's visible from a distance can't tell the difference between Morghur not having a mutagenic field and him either having one that he can turn off or having one that most strongly applies to spellcasters.

 

[GrimTheMad]

Fair enough than the Karaz Ankor will want to kill them for perverting runes into whatever non-Thhungi worship is out here. Can we please stop looking at the 1 in a 1000 pink glasses 'amazing win for order' and be responsible for all the people who will starve without our magic if we die. There are no cows left and we are the only ones who can freeze them once new ones are bought.

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Hey, I'm voting to do nothing or leave.

I just want to make sure everyone has the facts straight to make an informed decision.

Speaking of:

If they filled their larders and gorged their animals at the edge of Kurgan lands, they'd have two weeks of food plus full bellies to go three weeks of distance. 2/3 rations or going the last week without food would be a really bad time, but it's not an automatic death sentence.

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Making it back without Mockery of Death is technically doable, but it would suck.

It also relies on losing no more Wagons, which is unlikely if they have to make the same crossing as before- and going the long way instead would just make the food problem worse.

 

[guyfromtheplace1]

Eh, I guess I'll remove my 'infiltrate the karak with magic' from my vote.

I want to infiltrate, but I agree that we should wait until we've asked the Kurgan whether it'll turn us into spawn. And we're essentially under a duty to ask before trying to get a volunteer to test it.

 

[DragonParadox]

Dwarven magical resistance is not immune to Morghur's Chaos spawnification, which happens if you even get near him, never mind touch him!

It's a logic puzzle! Morghur is outright demonstrated to not be doing the "turn people into Chaos Spawn thing"! The very land and trees around him are not mutating into horror! I think I've got to go to bed, it's just upsetting me that people are straight-up ignoring this, because it doesn't fit their belief that this is the real Morghur! It's distressingly similar to current politics, and that is me done for the day.

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No it is not a logic puzzle and I refuse to engage with it as such. It is a very dangerous situation filled with unknown unknowns that risks the lives of every single man dwarf elf and dragon on this expedition if we guess wrong.

 

[Strange9]

It's distressingly similar to current politics, and that is me done for the day.

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I'm gonna be honest, given current politics, saying this is kind of a dick move.
Edit: And more to the point, it's not like... a super constructive way of engaging with other people? Regardless of how people feel, this is a statement designed to insult rather than anything else. Please don't do this in the future.

 

[Imugi]

Why don't we go, "Hi diddly ho, neighborino!", to the Kurgan on the sides? It should clear up a lot of our concerns.

[X] Approach the Kul camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them

 

[Doctor Elsewhere]

[X] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak with magic
[X] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak without magic
[X] Attempt to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with
[X] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak

 

[wrecksalot]

Good grief, the suspense is killing me. Curiosity (and wanting to see what worldbuilding boney came up with) says to infiltrate without magic. But trying to sneak across a desert with a beast man demigod watching is pretty up there on the challenge rating.

Maybe we can look at this another way. What could we possibly find in the Karak that would be worth the trip? Is there anything that would be worth it?

We saved one Karak this trip, might be time to go home.

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Clearing Karag Dum's name, thereby avoiding giving the Karaz Ankor another enemy.

If it is something Destro aligned, then figuring out whatever their cooking up is probably worth it, since forewarned is forearmed and we might be able to disrupt it.

it would accomplish what we went into the chaos wastes for, which is a big enough win in my book.

 

[Boney]

I'm not saying that any of the options presented would necessarily lead to it, but to anyone who might be tempted into the metagame assumption that I wouldn't present a potentially fatal (or otherwise quest-ending) choice to the thread, I've got the next quest's OP ready to go.

 

[will408914]

They've just had Borek arrive, and the only groups around are who he came with and Chaos tribesmen, which we do not look like.

Boy, if only we'd seen him literally reach out and touch someone and fail to Chaos spawn them, an intrinsic part of the same legends you're worried about, to demonstrate that the danger is, one way or another, not real.



Dwarven magical resistance is not immune to Morghur's Chaos spawnification, which happens if you even get near him, never mind touch him!

It's explicitly a logic puzzle! Morghur is outright demonstrated to not be doing the "turn people into Chaos Spawn thing"! The very land and trees around him are not mutating into horror! I think I've got to go to bed, it's just upsetting me that people are straight-up ignoring this, because it doesn't fit their belief that this is the real Morghur! It's distressingly similar to current politics, and that is me done for the day.

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The problem is, we don't know if the effect has been removed entirely or if Morghur can somehow selectively apply it now, and we don't have hard evidence either way. It seems more likely to be the former, but if we're wrong we turn into a Chaos Spawn. So caution seems pretty reasonable.

[x] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[x] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
[x] Attempt to intercept a Kurgan war-party en route to attack the Karag and the Beastmen

 

[guyfromtheplace1]

So I would like to propose that we don't have cause to leave just yet, we've taken essentially no attrition during this stretch of the effort.

[X] Approach the Kul camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[X] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[X] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
[X] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak without magic
[X] Attempt to intercept a Kurgan war-party en route to attack the Karag and the Beastmen
- Hopefully, this will trigger the Protector and implant the knowledge that you protected them in both the Beastmen and any remaining inhabitants of the Karak.
[X] Ask for a volunteer to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with

I'd regret never getting any answers if we leave.

 

[adaer]

I'm going to bet that if Mathilde investigates the new unknown nature god being worshipped in Talabecland when she gets back, it's going to look a lot like Cor-Dum.

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It looks like a bloodborne boss. People in the Empire, even if they somehow don't know the legend, are going to think "powerful beastman" not "cool nature god" when they see it.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I'm gonna be honest, given current politics, saying this is kind of a dick move.

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I said that you were sticking to your guns in the face of explicit evidence to the contrary, not that you were launching a coup.

I can't believe I actually had to type that out, though I suppose that's not your fault. Seriously, I'm going to bed.

EDIT: Ugh, sticking to your guns could come across as being about the election thing instead of just general obstinacy in current politics. It wasn't, honest.

 

[Retrueno]

[X] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[X] Approach the Kul camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them


I am not getting why we should leave now, at this very moment. We came here armed to the teeth ready to fight a Bloodthirster or worse. Compared to that waiting a day doesn't seem risky at all.

 

[Cheap Orange Knofe]

Did Ariel win? Cause a purified Morghul means an untainted Ariel right?

 

[Garlak]

... Hold up.

... This is probably a stupid connection to make. Right?

That was probably just some one-off background flavor text during the Witch Hunter conference. ... Riiiiight?

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I think it's definitely a good track, but the specifics aren't quite right.

I wouldn't look for gods that gained sudden, recent prominence, but for ones that have been waxing over the last two centuries.

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Karnos hates Chaos. Hates 'em.

You know who also worships Karnos? Wood elves.

You know who has tried to bind Morghur to steal his power before? Wood elves.

You know what would bring eternal shame to a Dwarf? Needing the help of...

Wood elves.

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... I mean.

... The Eonir were asking for us to work with them on reconnecting Waystones.

We assumed that this meant Waystones in Laurelorn territory. (And maybe it even does mean that!)

But what if they meant other Waystones. Ones a bit further north. What if they wanted us to reconnect Vlag/Dum, because they had gotten a connection to Dum or one of their Divinities was hanging out at Dum or had done something at Dum? Or, what if they wanted to connect their waystones to Vlag's line, so that Karnos/Cor-Dom could send energy from where he was at at Karag Dum?

Maybe the Elves wanted us to reconnect, or forge another connection, of some Waystones. Maybe we were just wrong about which Waystones or where-to.

(I don't think this is the case, of course. But. In tribute and in the same mood as the Pepe Sylvia thing, well... I figured I'd contribute to the WMG tone, eh?)

EDIT:

I think it's definitely a good track, but the specifics aren't quite right.

I wouldn't look for gods that gained sudden, recent prominence, but for ones that have been waxing over the last two centuries.

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But would it be waxing over the centuries, or shrinking over the centuries as they expended their might to fight off Kurgan raids?

Waystones can't just feed a god energy after all. (My "Ranald take the wheel!" idea got joshed back at Vlag after all; it does not work that way, simply.) And how much would Dwarf converts provide in terms of energy?

 

[DragonParadox]

[X] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[X] Approach the Kul camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[X] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them


I am not getting why we should leave now, at this very moment. We came here armed to the teeth ready to fight a Bloodthirster or worse. Compared to that waiting a day doesn't seem risky at all.

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It is the chaos wastes, land of biting houses. A Bloodthirster or three could be just around the corner and the longer we spend here the more likely we meet them.

 

[guyfromtheplace1]

They've just had Borek arrive, and the only groups around are who he came with and Chaos tribesmen, which we do not look like.

Boy, if only we'd seen him literally reach out and touch someone and fail to Chaos spawn them, an intrinsic part of the same legends you're worried about, to demonstrate that the danger is, one way or another, not real.



Dwarven magical resistance is not immune to Morghur's Chaos spawnification, which happens if you even get near him, never mind touch him!

It's explicitly a logic puzzle! Morghur is outright demonstrated to not be doing the "turn people into Chaos Spawn thing"! The very land and trees around him are not mutating into horror! I think I've got to go to bed, it's just upsetting me that people are straight-up ignoring this, because it doesn't fit their belief that this is the real Morghur! It's distressingly similar to current politics, and that is me done for the day.

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We can afford to ask the local tribesmen before trying magical infiltration.
I think people are mostly supporting doing it immediately out of habit and an understanding that liaising with tribesmen doesn't seem to be winning the vote.

 

[Ericwinter]

To be honest, I don't want to leave, but I also don't really think we'll get too much out of this without resorting to magic, and that, at least, I'm not willing to risk without explicit confirmation that Cor-Dum won't fuck us for it. And the likelihood of that is... low. We would have to rely on not only someone else rolling up to make an attack where we can see in the day or so we can spare, but also that they bring magicians who cast enough times without turning to Chaos Spawn that we can be reasonably sure it's not a risk. So I'm just going to stay out of it.

Unless... @BoneyM according to the wiki, the whole "Wizards specifically risk turning into chaos spawn" effect isn't an inherent part of Morghur, but an effect of his staff...combined with the stones around his skull cave? Are those stones something he usually carries on him? Or is this getting into "Mathilde wouldn't know, the threat is still too great" territory?

 

[Iruel]

The study of the skeletons littered about suggested that the Beastmen fear some sort of counterattack. Is it perhaps possible that some Dwarves, at least, remain 'pure' and exist in a state of siege? If they noticed that the Beastmen were distracted they might take the opportunity to sally out and inflict a degree of damage?

Another less likely thought is that maybe the Beastmen don't fear a counterattack, they fear time? Maybe they can't survive for long outside the perimeter or, if they are controlled somehow, the effect itself doesn't last long when away from the source?

 

[Robotninja]

[X] Leave

 

[NexusEye]

To be honest, I don't want to leave, but I also don't really think we'll get too much out of this without resorting to magic, and that, at least, I'm not willing to risk without explicit confirmation that Cor-Dum won't fuck us for it. And the likelihood of that is... low. We would have to rely on not only someone else rolling up to make an attack where we can see in the day or so we can spare, but also that they bring magicians who cast enough times without turning to Chaos Spawn that we can be reasonably sure it's not a risk. So I'm just going to stay out of it.

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The Kurgan have been fighting Cor-Dum for decades, they'd know if it's safe to use magic around him. All we need to do is go and ask.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Sometimes you have to shut up and multiply. Take the expected utility of a success, times the likelihood of success, and subtract the expected disutility of failure times the likelihood of failure. Pretty much all of the other options have a payout that is not commensurate with the risks incurred, not with this entire expedition reliant on our mockery of death.

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[ ] Ask for a volunteer to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with

It doesn't have to be us taking the risk of making first contact.

I'd argue that having one person make the bet that Borek's Karak won't turn on the expedition that came to help it is well worth the potential loss of one life. If no one volunteers just to bad but if somebody is willing to risk it, even just the strategic information is worth it :

- What exactly is happening,
- Is the Karak in danger of falling or can it sustain itself long term,
- Does the Karak need help, what kind (every year the stand is a year without Cor-Dun for the rest of the world and another year where their waystone is uncorrupted).

Even just that information is well worth the risk to a volunteer.

EDIT : Plus if we can get excavation tools from the Karak we can repair the road on the way back.