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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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One important thing to consider is that there's a difference between

"The hold has fallen to Chaos"
and
"Karak Anzor Dwarves will think the hold has fallen to Chaos"

My theories currently go to a scenario where the hold still holds, but they've resorted to such extreme measures that dwarves among our expedition might start levying grudges/turning slayer once they realize what's going on.
That's why we're told to go back.

There's no suggestion about going inside to capture artefacts, because the hold is still using those artefacts.
There's no suggestion about going inside for vengeance, because the hold does not need to be avenged
There's no looking for survivors, because rescue is not desired.
 
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@BoneyM

Do the beastmen around the mountain have dhar in them, or just massive amounts of Ghur? (I am assuming that regular chaos beastmen have visible amounts of dhar)
 
10ebbor10 said:
One important thing to consider is that there's a difference between

"The hold has fallen to Chaos"
and
"Karak Anzor Dwarves will think the hold has fallen to Chaos"

My theories currently go to a scenario where the hold still holds, but they're resorted to such extreme measures that dwarves among our expedition might start levying grudges/turning slayer once they realize what's going on.
That's why we're told to go back.

There's no suggestion about going inside to capture artefacts, because the hold is still using those artefacts.
There's no suggestion about going inside for vengeance, because the hold does not need to be avenged
There's no looking for survivors, because rescue is not desired.
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Exactly, this is one of those times where finding out more may well be a pure negative. Some threads shouldn't be pulled on no matter how tempted you are. It also neatly ends the issue with Thorek wanting to tear the rune lord guild to pieces.
 
Ragnar said:
It could explode into swiss cheese for all I care. As long as it destroys the waystone, and hopefully whatever it's connected to- IE, the Hold, then I'm fine with that.
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... But it's connected to the other waystones. That's how we know that whatever it is, it isn't corrupted.

Blowing up Karak Vlag right after we saved it would be a really dick move, and not even one that Ranald would approve of.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
We don't have the forces to take Dum from Morghur.
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We don't need to take the place, we just need to retard their ability to stop us blowing the place.

To be frank, if we leave this place standing, this entire venture is a failure. We didn't just bring word back of a fallen hold, we bring word back of a Fallen Hold.

That's so fucking backwards, we just can't let it stand.
 
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.

[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Yes it's baseless fearmongering to say what Mathildes eyes showed us, I know you think this is an illusion but can you actually not ignore that other people disagree and have a reason for it? Calling it baseless is just factually incorrect.
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May I say that our actual eyes say that this is safe and not dhar, and we are only afraid of it because it looks like a being known to be very chaosy?

Seriously, the area has less dhar and the stone juice is pure, our magical eyes say that it is safe, our prejiduce says that this is chaos.
 
Ragnar said:
We don't need to take the place, we just need to retard their ability to stop us blowing the place.

To be frank, if we leave this place standing, this entire venture is a failure. We didn't just bring word back of a fallen hold, we bring word back of a Fallen Hold.

That's so fucking backwards, we just can't let it stand.
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We saved Vlag on the way and Karak Dum being in chaos hands was something Gunnars thought might be the case, it's well within expectations.


storryeater said:
May I say that our actual eyes say that this is safe and not dhar, and we are only afraid of it because it looks like a being known to be very chaosy?

Seriously, the area has less dhar and the stone juice is pure, our magical eyes say that it is safe, our prejiduce says that this is chaos.
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There's less ambient dhar around the mountain but we would expect that simply from the waystone being active?
 
Klaus said:
*reads the update*
So the dwarves turned into beastmen? Borek somehow knew this was on the table because he isn't surprised. And the beastman likes him, not just tolerates his presence, so I don't think this is normal beastmen.

And this is bad enough that Borek doesn't think the firepower of the expedition can help, possibly because the hold is too corrupted. And he's more loyal to Karag Dum than to the Karaz Ankor, because he's joining them rather than trying to get rid of them?
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It's possible but probably fairly unlikely. There's more likely explanations like using beastmen as a buffer (side effects include them being overly affectionate), or just simple illusions to disguise the appearance of the dwarfs (which may be enough to make Borek feel extreme shame).

Also Borek seems to know what's going on, but we may be getting a false read. It's possible (but not likely) that Borek thought he was going to die when he walked up to Morghur and was mind-bogglingly surprised when he walked up and it turned they were actually dwarfs in disguise.

Anyway there's a lot of possibilities but we can probably knock off (or at least reduce the likelihood, this is the chaos wastes) a few of them with some quick tests.
 
DragonParadox said:
Because the Karaz Ankor would not take them back so it's not worth the risk to life and limb. This is not a moral judgement but a practical consideration.
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The difference is if it becomes a major grudge or not. I like OmegaHugger theory very much, since it explains everything and it would be 'ok they're bad juju but it was bad luck and family loyalty, not demon trafficking 2.0'.

But you have to scout for it.

Also for fucks sakes, someone make a good 'theory' vote that votes out that currently winning one. Bound Demons, especially beastmen don't 'greet' other people amiably.
 
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[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Neither Morghur nor beastmen are what they appear to be - they are instead dwarfs of Karag Dum, who changed bodies through principles they knew but still kept their souls and minds intact. The reason for that was the need for new bodies that could survive fighting in the Wastes. "Morghur" is a member of the Royal Clan or a Runemaster that knew Borek personally, which why he made such an intimate gesture. It is possible that not all dwarfs suffered such fate, if that is the fate they suffered. Borek knew of such plan, but found it shameful and thus fell into despair when he saw it done.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has built magical flesh golems, and Morghur is one.
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.

I don't see any clear favorites, so I'll just vote for everything that seems sensible that isn't just "turn back" (which would also be largely sensible, but very unsatisfying)
 
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Interesting analysis storryeater!

storryeater said:
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.

[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
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Well, I think the designation 'friendly' should wait until we see what it does to a non-karag Dum dwarf, or non dwarf, but it does seem to be non chaotic. Despite it apparently being Morghur, one of the most chaotic things in the world.

Still, I think your action is solid.
 
[X] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.

[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
[X] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[X] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
There's no suggestion about going inside to capture artefacts, because the hold is still using those artefacts.
There's no suggestion about going inside for vengeance, because the hold does not need to be avenged
There's no looking for survivors, because rescue is not desired.
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This is the heart of it.

None of the expedition's objectives remain valid. We're done here.

Our concern is now to look after our own. Our objective is now the survival of the expedition.
 
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Ragnar said:
So, on a trip into the heart of the great enemy, the first time we come up against them, you want to turn around and run away?
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If it's really Morghur and we fight, we're dead. He can corrupt fighters in the middle of a battle, has a ridiculous healing factor and it took Ariel herself and an Elder Treeman to kill him. It those conditions, flight seems perfectly reasonable. And I didn't want us to go north, I would have prefer to continue studying magic.

That said, we should investigate to know wtf is going on. There's too much incoherences. I say we send Mathilde under camouflage (eventually with a few rangers) to spy.

[x] [Action] Scout the other fronts, ask other expedition members for what they might have happened, check with the other wizards what their expertise tell them about the magical and natural environments.
[x] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[x] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[x] THEORY: They have formed a pact with Morghur to defend them and probably isolate them from everything outside, but it is still uncertain whether they've actually fallen into corruption, maybe chaos dwarves now, maybe not.
[x] ACTION: Very careful scouting. Both by the knights, dwarves and Mathilde. Starting with inanimate matter and other disposable stuff(like the cows) to determine where the edges-borders of the effect are and just what the hell the effect is without entering it, while the convoy digs in and readies itself to attack, from behind or from the Karag. If that doesn't lead to some clarity, more aggressive scouting may be needed. Either way, Karag Dum is still a part of the Karak Ankor, and there are ways that link them could be used by demons to hurt the whole realm, especially now that Vlag is back and the links reestablished. So while a part of me might prefer as the wise option to turn back, we cannot leave such a threat without establishing its exact nature, if only so I can bring back news of what to do to about it to King Belegar and the High King.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
There's less ambient dhar around the mountain but we would expect that simply from the waystone being active?
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We are talking about a being that is more inherently corruptive by its very existence than greater daemons. This one is clear if the radiation is only standard.

Argent Citadel said:
Interesting analysis storryeater!



Well, I think the designation 'friendly' should wait until we see what it does to a non-karag Dum dwarf, or non dwarf, but it does seem to be non chaotic. Despite it apparently being Morghur, one of the most chaotic things in the world.

Still, I think your action is solid.
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Thanks. If you meant to vote for it, keep in mind it doesn't count if it is in a quote.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
We saved Vlag on the way and Karak Dum being in chaos hands was something Gunnars thought might be the case, it's well within expectations.
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Expectations for the Dwarfs, which is the lowest possible expectation. It's another great grudge and shame upon their people, one they can't afford just as we are trying to pull them out of their slump.

Frankly, it would be better for the entire expedition to die trying to destroy the place, then return alive with the news.
 
[x] [THEORY]: There are no dwarves to save. Either the "Cor-Dum" we saw is somehow fake, in which case the dwarves hold the place, and need no help holding it; Cor-Dum is real and allied somehow with the dwarves, in which case the dwarves are not worth our trouble as they have allied with chaos; or Cor-Dum is real and conquered Karag Dum, in which case there are no dwarves left to save.

[x] ACTION: Turn back

Basically, there is no way we can save dwarves, and our people are best useable in other places. Also, our mages basically can't cast without getting Dhar poisoning here, because if we didn't have the belt, we'd be fucked. So yeah, vs Cor-Dum, we lose, guaranteed. Literally Elves in their homeland had to use a McGuffin to defeat him, and we don't have access to that McGuffin right now (or at least knowledge we have access to it).
 
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Ragnar said:
Expectations for the Dwarfs, which is the lowest possible expectation. It's another great grudge and shame upon their people, one they can't afford just as we are trying to pull them out of their slump.

Frankly, it would be better for the entire expedition to die trying to destroy the place, then return alive with the news.
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We saved Vlag, so at worst it's neutral but they already thought it was destroyed so it's not.
 
Ragnar said:
Expectations for the Dwarfs, which is the lowest possible expectation. It's another great grudge and shame upon their people, one they can't afford just as we are trying to pull them out of their slump.

Frankly, it would be better for the entire expedition to die trying to destroy the place, then return alive with the news.
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I don't know about you but I would prefer sad dwarfs to a dead PC and and ended quest.
 
That is not Morghur.
He does not control his corruption/mutation aura beyond the range, and dwarves are not immune to chaos, only resistant.
Borek was touched by the thing and remained completely unaffected.
And, I don't care how radical/advanced/heretical you think Dum Rhunesmiths might be, Anyone short of Thungni or Grungni crafting runes that can both control and suppress the chaos aura of the motherfrickin shadowgave ain't happening.

Boney is throwing a curveball at us, it is NOT going where you first think it might.
That said, whatever the Dum Dawi did, Borek obviously thinks it was shameful to the extreme, and if nothing else, he deserves a grudge for getting Gotrek and the rest of the perished crew of Urmskaladrak dead, if this is his final reaction.
OTOH, we have already encountered memetic mind-trap with Vlag. And that was not an illusion and still deceived. Something similar could very well be also happening here.

[X] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
[X] ACTION: The forces should move back at least a half-days distance, find a defensible spot, and camp out for a few days to give them a chance to investigate, but no more than two-three days, the overall safety of the expedition still comes first.
 
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