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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I just like the theme of moral duality that's going on with knightland

that the knight that risked everything to save a kid From a beast man and the tyrnet That executed that kid as a man for rabble rousering can be the same person.

the lady that would denune a Earl for being unnecessarily cruel in his punishments, but would still defend his right to set those laws as he pleases.

that the laws and cultural that creates some of the greatest hero's in the setting also protect some of the worst jackasses from justice.
 
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Suddenly, I hope that BoneyM's next quest (mayitnevercometopass) will be placed in Brettonia, if only to see what he'd make of it.
 
BurnNote said:
To be fair, extremely stupid laws are not restricted to Bretonnia, or even Warhammer in general. And I suspect Boneytannia will be a whole lot more functional. I really do want to visit some time.

But y'know, in Bretonnian eys, Mathilde is pretty much just a step above Chaos-level evil. She's a peasant, non-damsel spellcaster, sort-of priest of a proscribed god, really likes guns and pretends to be a knight despite being a peasant (and she has a magic horse that has the gall of being better than a proper horse). Just about the only thing they'd respect about her is the giant fuck-off blade, and I wouldn't be surprised if some bitch about it anyway.
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Horium said:
I vaguely remember reading a post of Boney that says that he considers Bretonnia to be heavily influenced by romantic notions/themes, so much so, that it completely dominates their lives.

I'll try to find the relevant quote.
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I had a flash of inspiration from combining those 2 comments. From Brettonias perspective, Mathilde is the very picture of the archetype of the black knight.
 
Am I the only person here who actually likes the "everything is terrible forever" depictions of Brettonia? Where the peasants and merchants are oppressed because the nobility actually think that what they're doing is good and required to avoid societal collapse in the long term, with the usual shitty feudal logic justifying it all but turned up to 11 so that the commentary is obvious even to readers who aren't already looking for the story's themes?
Obviously I wouldn't want to live there, but I absolutely would read a story set there.

EDIT: Also, the depiction of Mousillon and its politics in A Champion of Gods and Rogues was excellent. If DP does write a quest set there, I'm crossing my fingers for something similar (but DP flavoured, of course).
 
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When I write Bretonnia, the guiding light you might say is two/three things:

1. Romantic escapism, the fantasy of the powerful who use that power for right instead of wrong.
2. The question of "what gives a person the right to lead?"
3. (Possibly could be folded in with 1) The question of "With your power, what is your responsibility?"
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Am I the only person here who actually likes the "everything is terrible forever" depictions of Brettonia? Where the peasants and merchants are oppressed because the nobility actually think that what they're doing is good and required to avoid societal collapse in the long term, with the usual shitty feudal logic justifying it all but turned up to 11 so that the commentary is obvious even to readers who aren't already looking for the story's themes?
Obviously I wouldn't want to live there, but I absolutely would read a story set there.
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I personally find the Monty python level of grimdark makes some of the funniest and fun campaigns in the RPG.

but the problem is that the big problem themes of Kightland (classism, sexism, xenophobia) hit too close to home for some people.

personally, I see value in exploring all themes, even the uncomfortable ones, in stories. (It's how we can develop an mature understanding of real live problems).

but a lot of people don't even want to look at it. And some would be much happier if anything that tries to look at the nuances (often badly when it comes to warhammer sady)be wiped clean completely.
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Am I the only person here who actually likes the "everything is terrible forever" depictions of Brettonia? Where the peasants and merchants are oppressed because the nobility actually think that what they're doing is good and required to avoid societal collapse in the long term, with the usual shitty feudal logic justifying it all but turned up to 11 so that the commentary is obvious even to readers who aren't already looking for the story's themes?
Obviously I wouldn't want to live there, but I absolutely would read a story set there.
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We don't know how exactly it'd be but somewhere between the two extremes is certain.
Like, given how much Bretonnia is romanticized and mythologized to itself, you're going to see a lot of faking it till they make it...except some people aren't really suited to that, which gives you:
-People who actually live the legend and succeed, their personal flaws eclipsed by glory.

-People who live the legend and fail, but act as though they succeeded.
--Some of these are still good people without the fortune or ability to do it, and they continue to set a good example, even if they are painfully aware they're not.
--Some of these are going to be people who slippery slope their way through the lies, valuing image over reality. If you can lie about the big things you can lie about everything else too.

-People who live the legend and die trying. The endless streams of knights errant and questing knights pushing back the darkness with personal sacrifice and being burned up in the process of never being good enough.
 
picklepikkl said:
Here's what was said on the subject in the past:


My guess is that we can throw out the grimderp versions of Bretonnia categorically, but the opposite extreme (5th edition's extreme noblesse oblige and shining-armor-iness) is also unlikely to be played straight. One of the great strengths of Boney's worldbuilding is the degree to which everyone feels like a person who is making decisions according to their own internal logic and has comprehensible motivations: this rules out both ends of caricature. It's not going to be a land of completely insane cartoonish oppression, and it's also not going to be a fairytale realm where the king is righteous and true and is served by knights who are unfailingly generous and good to the populace they protect. Whatever its deal is, it's inhabited by people who will act like people.
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...hmm I do wonder what's stopping the opposite of the crossdressing knights. Could there be much difference in 'only men can become knights' and 'only women come back'? The one main difference I see is there really is little authority in who becomes a knight, if the deceivement is found out that's when something is done, while the Damsels are the messengers of the Lady and are presumably under more supervision to determine who gets sent out. But if one is true, then it really only makes sense to consider if the other is as well.
 
I dislike the all is terrible forever turned up to eleven because it leaves me asking "why is it still standing".
System needs to function to survive, and unless they are doing magical mindcontrol, i just don't see a feudal system surviving when it is constantly maximally terrible.
 
Zedman7054 said:
...hmm I do wonder what's stopping the opposite of the crossdressing knights. Could there be much difference in 'only men can become knights' and 'only women come back'? The one main difference I see is there really is little authority in who becomes a knight, if the deceivement is found out that's when something is done, while the Damsels are the messengers of the Lady and are presumably under more supervision to determine who gets sent out. But if one is true, then it really only makes sense to consider if the other is as well.
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It is commonly speculated that the Lady is either sacrificing the male magic-users (the dark version) or has some kind of plan for them and is metaphorically stashing them somewhere for some purpose such as "building up a massive army of magic-using knights to use in an emergency" (the less dark version)

Valmond said:
I dislike the all is terrible forever turned up to eleven because it leaves me asking "why is it still standing".
System needs to function to survive, and unless they are doing magical mindcontrol, i just don't see a feudal system surviving when it is constantly maximally terrible.
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Yeah. If your nobles are taxing the peasantry to the tune of nine tenths of the harvest, then either:

1) Your peasants live in some kind of Garden of Eden paradise where food appears in virtually unlimited quantities and can be had cheap as dirt with negligible effort, OR

2) Your nobles are turning around and giving eight parts in every nine of their tax receipts right back to the peasantry so that they even have anything to eat, turning the system into a form of 'palace command economy,' OR

3) The peasants all starve to death in literally one year, and moreover don't even have enough grain to plant seeds next year.
 
Ok just so y'all know I suddenly have a 1200 word outline for the next U-K8P bit all of a sudden and no I don't know why now either.

And regards Bretonnia, the thing that I dislike about the way they are shaded is it's always done as an implicit contrast with the empire, whereas I see the commonalities as dominating. The empire is also mostly peasants rules by nobles in bad conditions- but somehow in Brettonia it becomes a question of the problems with the system, whereas I don't think I've ever heard those concerns raised within the empire.
 
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This just came to mind-

So, we know what the Ice Witches are after now, which is the Chalice of Chaos, capable of empowering Chaos worshippers and potentially even turn them into demons. And they want to lock it away.

We have previously learned that they believe it's in the possession of the Yusak. We also learned that the Yusak aren't exactly favored by Chaos at the moment.

Feels like there might be a connection with the Chalice- perhaps the Yusak have actually lost it somehow?
 
Zedman7054 said:
...hmm I do wonder what's stopping the opposite of the crossdressing knights. Could there be much difference in 'only men can become knights' and 'only women come back'? The one main difference I see is there really is little authority in who becomes a knight, if the deceivement is found out that's when something is done, while the Damsels are the messengers of the Lady and are presumably under more supervision to determine who gets sent out. But if one is true, then it really only makes sense to consider if the other is as well.
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"Okay, so what makes a College Wizard is the Arcane Mark. That's what binds their soul to a particular Wind. And your theory is that other forms of spellcasters have their own marks that bind their souls to particular wind configurations and abilities?"

"Yes, exactly. An Ice Witch might not have a soul marked to a single wind, but their soul uses only Wind components related to Ice and Cold because that's how it's marked. Damsels too. Their arcane marks are what makes them Damsels...."

"So what exactly does this have to do with your theory about what happens to male children with the talent for magic in Bretonnia?"

"I think they get the same arcane mark as the female children and come back after training just like the female children."

"But they don't-"

"As I said, the Arcane Mark is what makes them Damsels. You really think a gender switch is more impossible for a Mark than having your shadow come alive or a beard made out of smoke?"
 
Valmond said:
I dislike the all is terrible forever turned up to eleven because it leaves me asking "why is it still standing".
System needs to function to survive, and unless they are doing magical mindcontrol, i just don't see a feudal system surviving when it is constantly maximally terrible.
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True. Even if they prevent escape, too many of their peasants would die, and they would starve, or would be conquered by the Empire, duchy by duchy and province by province.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Yeah. If your nobles are taxing the peasantry to the tune of nine tenths of the harvest, then either:

1) Your peasants live in some kind of Garden of Eden paradise where food appears in virtually unlimited quantities and can be had cheap as dirt with negligible effort, OR

2) Your nobles are turning around and giving eight parts in every nine of their tax receipts right back to the peasantry so that they even have anything to eat, turning the system into a form of 'palace command economy,' OR

3) The peasants all starve to death in literally one year, and moreover don't even have enough grain to plant seeds next year.
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The general asumption most of the settings writers run on is number 2
 
FlyingScanian said:
Suddenly, I hope that BoneyM's next quest (mayitnevercometopass) will be placed in Brettonia, if only to see what he'd make of it.
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First order of business would be to reach out the nearest set of Dwarf within Bretonnia. (The only ones I checked living in a district of Castle Parravon of Parravon.)

But any Bretonnia Quest would truly become a Elf Quest (Both Wood Elf and I think High Elf.) the same as this one has become a Dwarf Quest.
 
Historyman14 said:
But any Bretonnia Quest would truly become a Elf Quest (Both Wood Elf and I think High Elf.) the same as this one has become a Dwarf Quest.
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hahahahaha... no, nonono.

if you think the elves of Laurelorn Forest in the empire and the nutjobs of Athel Loren in Bretonnia are the same, then your in for a bad time.

there is no way Bretonnia Quest would go the same way but with elfs instead of Dwarfs.

the Athel Loren elfs are... not that removed from angry forest spirits.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
hahahahaha... no, nonono.

if you think the elves of Laurelorn Forest in the empire and the nutjobs of Athel Loren in Bretonnia are the same, then your in for a bad time.

there is no way Bretonnia Quest would go the same way but with elfs instead of Dwarfs.

the Athel Loren elfs are... not that removed from angry forest spirits.
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Again, that sort of depends on what edition you're working from.
 
veekie said:
We don't know how exactly it'd be but somewhere between the two extremes is certain.
Like, given how much Bretonnia is romanticized and mythologized to itself, you're going to see a lot of faking it till they make it...except some people aren't really suited to that, which gives you:
-People who actually live the legend and succeed, their personal flaws eclipsed by glory.

-People who live the legend and fail, but act as though they succeeded.
--Some of these are still good people without the fortune or ability to do it, and they continue to set a good example, even if they are painfully aware they're not.
--Some of these are going to be people who slippery slope their way through the lies, valuing image over reality. If you can lie about the big things you can lie about everything else too.

-People who live the legend and die trying. The endless streams of knights errant and questing knights pushing back the darkness with personal sacrifice and being burned up in the process of never being good enough.
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You forgot one kind of person.

People who do not really care about the legend , but know how to exploit it for their own benefit and powerbase.

Historically, this kind of person always existed among the powerful.
 
ninjafish said:
So.... Whens the voting gonna close?

Because I think the winner is pretty obvious here.
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BoneyM said:
I sometimes leave it open if it's neck-and-neck but usually I close it once I'm ready to start writing, with a minimum of 24 hours.
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From this, we conclude that Boney is not yet ready to start writing. And so until that happy day, we shall pass the time with other things, like discussing treatments of Bretonnia throughout various periods of WHF canon and fanon, coming up with clever tactics for the dwarves to use against the daemon hordes of Karak Vlag, and rejoicing in the knowledge that stone is an excellent insulator of magic.
 
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Glau said:
And regards Bretonnia, the thing that I dislike about the way they are shaded is it's always done as an implicit contrast with the empire, whereas I see the commonalities as dominating. The empire is also mostly peasants rules by nobles in bad conditions- but somehow in Brettonia it becomes a question of the problems with the system, whereas I don't think I've ever heard those concerns raised within the empire.
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It is amusing to think of how the quest would have developed had one of the other provinces won during character creation. Stirland, of all the provinces in the Empire, has the more active 'enemy territory' and its new Count was a white knight kind of guy focused on external threats. Had Mathilde been assigned to the mad-hatter province or the Napoleon-complex province I suspect she, as a devout follower of Ranald, would have been quickly driven to treason by all the political infighting and casual (non-chaotic) corruption.
 
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