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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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On boon-spending, and Belegars ability to deliver what was asked, Boney rated this Insightful at the time.
Alliterate said:
Yep. The other thing that strikes me is that we could probably also break Belegar with our request (especially while he's also stressed about being un-dwarfy)— so it might pay to have a care with what we ask for.

If we ask something he is unable to deliver, the shame of the size of the unpaid debt would eat away at him. I think he feels he owes us his kingdom- which is a deep debt that must be repaid.

Or if we instead asked for something... dishonourable or merely extremely un-dwarfy which he nonetheless is able to deliver... I think Belegar would do it, for us, for the debt he and his clan owe- even if it broke him, psychologically.

Dwarves don't hold much with metaphor and figures of speech, and I read this quite literally.
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Strictly speaking this wasn't about us never calling in the debt, more about Belegar still being forever in our debt because he can't deliver, yet he must.
Is having a debt we never call in, which could be anything, that he can't settle because we don't say what we want- is that less bothersome than than having been asked for something he can't deliver?

It's probably a different kind of burden, an itch you can't scratch- it's significant that he refers to his Dalaz Kron, there are parallels with grudges, and this is a whopper.
 
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LightLan said:
The favor is limited to Belegar.
The other Dawi may tell him to piss off if we ask for such a thing.

That said our reputation is high enough that many Dawi are willing to share a lot of secrets with us.
Gunnars is willing to share Gazul's as long as we give some minor Oaths.
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I suppose I should have been pedantic.

If you want to change how the dwarves keep secrets, use the Boon to ask Belegar to help us lean on K8P culture to change it slowly and carefully and safely. Which is absolutely something he can do, given that he's already doing it to some degree. He's already one of the least conservative/traditional dwarves out there and we've already seen K8P accepting wizards, humans, halflings, the We, and dozens of other cultural broadenings and openings that traditional dwarves wouldn't be able to bring themselves to. Belegar helping us accelerate that would absolutely be something that we could spend the Boon on if we decided that that was the most useful thing we could do with it.
 
Alliterate said:
On boon-spending, and Belegars ability to deliver what was asked, Boney rated this Insightful at the time.

Strictly speaking this wasn't about us never calling in the debt, more about Belegar still being forever in our debt because he can't deliver, yet he must.
Is having a debt we never call in, which could be anything, that he can't settle because we don't say what we want- is that less bothersome than than having been asked for something he can't deliver?

It's probably a different kind of burden, an itch you can't scratch- it's significant that he refers to his Dalaz Kron, there are parallels with grudges, and this is a whopper.
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I agree. When he first described the Dalaz Kron, it's purpose was literally stated to be a weight around his neck. And this is a pretty heavy fucking weight, so we need to find a way to remove it, not just shift it.
 
Vebyast said:
I suppose I should have been pedantic.

If you want to change how the dwarves keep secrets, use the Boon to ask Belegar to help us lean on K8P culture to change it slowly and carefully and safely. Which is absolutely something he can do, given that he's already doing it to some degree. He's already one of the least conservative/traditional dwarves out there and we've already seen K8P accepting wizards, humans, halflings, the We, and dozens of other cultural broadenings and openings that traditional dwarves wouldn't be able to bring themselves to. Belegar helping us accelerate that would absolutely be something that we could spend the Boon on if we decided that that was the most useful thing we could do with it.
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Mathilde is not in a rush, which is...

We KNOW hes good for it. Even for stuff that would seriously hurt him to ask, no bones about it.

Get it done properly AND safely. Even of it takes a hundred years or two. Theres no shame in that, and we trust him implicitly to see it done.

Very dwarfy of her.
 
So a thought occured, and it's probably not a good one, but has anyone suggested using the boon to get rid of the Liber Mortis? Either storing or destroying, it, doesn't really matter so long as he doesn't kill us for having had it, and we're no longer in danger for for holding it at all times. It would also make sure that if and when we die, the thing doesn't have a chance to get out and find someone who would be less circumspect than us. I would see that as something worth the boon, actually capable of being carried out without lots of other work, and not breaking Belegar in the process.
 
That really doesn't make much sense. If you want to destroy it, just dump it into a fireplace. No need to ask your king to do it for you. If you want him to keep it safe and secret, you're asking him to protect something that he wants to destroy on sight.
 
ReImagined said:
That really doesn't make much sense. If you want to destroy it, just dump it into a fireplace. No need to ask your king to do it for you. If you want him to keep it safe and secret, you're asking him to protect something that he wants to destroy on sight.
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I could've sworn there was a reason we couldn't just destroy it ourself, or we would've by now? Like, all the magic in it makes it really hard to damage?
 
ReImagined said:
That really doesn't make much sense. If you want to destroy it, just dump it into a fireplace. No need to ask your king to do it for you. If you want him to keep it safe and secret, you're asking him to protect something that he wants to destroy on sight.
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Actually, Belegar has no special opinion of the Liber Mortis. He might or might not be vaguely aware that the Empire has banned it for Reasons, but that's human business. If his Loremaster says it's dangerous but potentially useful knowledge then he'd probably be perfectly willing to chuck it in one of his vaults and call it a day. It wouldn't even rise to the level of "Dwarf Favor" much less a boon.
 
Ericwinter said:
I could've sworn there was a reason we couldn't just destroy it ourself, or we would've by now? Like, all the magic in it makes it really hard to damage?
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In addition to being the ultimate Idiots Guide to Necromancy, it's also a great source of knowledge on how to fight Necromancers, as our reading has proved. It's not the sort of thing you destroy on a whim. The van Hals were witchhunters going back to just after Vanhel, and they never destroyed the book. There's a reason for that.
 
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Ericwinter said:
I could've sworn there was a reason we couldn't just destroy it ourself, or we would've by now? Like, all the magic in it makes it really hard to damage?
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I'm not aware of any IC reason, besides finding it too useful/not wanting to.

OOC, well, I think BoneyM was pretty clear on wanting the decision to be permanent.

BoneyM said:
- Needless to say, the moratorium on discussion of the Liber Mortis is lifted. This vote will permanently decide the matter. Remain civil. Even if you think other people's arguments are flawed. Even if your preferred choice isn't winning or doesn't win.
- If the decision is made to read the book, she will do so in her spare time during the coming turns. Mathilde will take all possible precautions to keep from being caught while doing so, and keeping it hidden away when it is not being read. This will not take actions and will not be part of future votes.
- If the decision is made to seal away the book, short of a scenario that at least matches Mannfred's imminent conquering of Altdorf or a major and fundamental change in her character, Mathilde will never consider reading the book ever again. She will take precautions that will make it nigh impossible for anyone else to discover it during her lifetime.
- If the decision is made to rid Mathilde of the book, a future vote will be held to decide between destroying or hiding the book, or having it sent to the Colleges or some other authority. If chosen, Mathilde will take precautions to make it impossible to track the sending back to her. Between her training and her magic, she is capable of it.
- Approval voting is allowed.
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Andres110 said:
Based on the great eagles tablet, might also be good for getting info on other old one races like dwarves, elves, and humans. Maybe dragons too since they were around when the old ones were. Greenskins were around back then as well, though IIRC they were kind of a pest species back then. Maybe there'd be daemon tablets but they technically came after the old ones were no more. Magic tablets would certainly be great. Architecture is a possibility and relevant to us if we want to take more of a personal hand in making towers or building-based superweapons.

Of course, this is all assuming that the lizardmen stopped recording new knowledge or information after the collapse of the polar gates. If they haven't stopped, there's probably a whole lot more information potentially available to us sitting in the Empire translated into some book.
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That would be nice but again its been most likely millennia since the lizard men wrote anything any of the tablets have on them. Any of the new tablets would be protected in one of their temple cities. The ones the college has is most likely found from ruins.

I doubt the architecture aspect will be considered by the dwarves because well their dwarves they have a hard time accepting that any foreign construction can match theirs. Also the dwarves and elves societies are far from what they were. Another problem is it might be depressing for the dwarves if we bring them knowledge of when their empire was large and powerful for the same reasons that boney said when we walked into a meeting with the high king... The dwarves already have enough reminders of all they have lost.

You are right though for daemon tablets an any exotic creature such as the eagles or dragons especially the dragon as we have one as a neighbor. Also if they do have any of the new tablets its worth a look into when were at the colleges.
 
Other magicks can extend lifespan as well. Gold Wizards can turn into living statues, and Elspeth von Draken stopped aging due to her extreme control of the Lore of Death.

We just need Mathilde to transform herself into a Living Shadow and then she'll stop aging too.
 
HanEmpire said:
Other magicks can extend lifespan as well. Gold Wizards can turn into living statues, and Elspeth von Draken stopped aging due to her extreme control of the Lore of Death.

We just need Mathilde to transform herself into a Living Shadow and then she'll stop aging too.
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Alternatively, Ulgu can already confuse the nature of a Grey Wizard's age, as Melkoth demonstrates.

So all we need to do is harness enough of it to confuse reality into accepting that Mathilde is a Living Ancestor, too short and stubborn to die. :V
 
Mopman43 said:
In addition to being the ultimate Idiots Guide to Necromancy, it's also a great source of knowledge on how to fight Necromancers, as our reading has proved. It's not the sort of thing you destroy on a whim. The van Hals were witchhunters going back to just after Vanhel, and they never destroyed the book. There's a reason for that.
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So, this caused a loathsome thought to appear in my head.

We TECHNICALLy have a huge piece of the Van hal family legacy... sitting around.

Are we gonna... return it to them?

Im not sure if thats even a good idea, let alone if its possible to convince the thread.
 
zxzx24 said:
So, this caused a loathsome thought to appear in my head.

We TECHNICALLy have a huge piece of the Van hal family legacy... sitting around.

Are we gonna... return it to them?

Im not sure if thats even a good idea, let alone if its possible to convince the thread.
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Once we marry Roswita, our childen will inherit the book and the problem will solve itself.
 
Briefvoice said:
Actually, Belegar has no special opinion of the Liber Mortis. He might or might not be vaguely aware that the Empire has banned it for Reasons, but that's human business. If his Loremaster says it's dangerous but potentially useful knowledge then he'd probably be perfectly willing to chuck it in one of his vaults and call it a day. It wouldn't even rise to the level of "Dwarf Favor" much less a boon.
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That being said, "dangerous but potentially useful knowledge that will make your biggest ally go apeshit if they know you have it" is a bit more than just plain old "dangerous but potentially useful knowledge". Probably not to the level of a Transcendent Boon, but it'd definitely be a few dwarf favor or some degree of minor boon depending on how strongly Belegar holds his realpolitik trait and appreciates the Empire/College support he has available.
 
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