Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Sayl the Faithless.
I don't think Undivided Sorcerers require being blessed by all the Gods, rather than simply going for Chaos Undivided as a concept.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I don't think Undivided Sorcerers require being blessed by all the Gods, rather than simply going for Chaos Undivided as a concept.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Sorcerers are undivided by default. They only get three specializations for the reasons you stated.
It's handled like the elemental / cardinal split in the magical lores, but all three advanced chaos lores have the same element.
Fair, that checks out.
- Pronouns
- he
That's an insult to Machiavelli! Even in The Prince he argued for restraint and practicality, with violence being but one dangerous and easily misused tool in the ruler's toolbox. He's even more reasonable in his writings that aren't a desperate (and failed) attempt to suck up to the Medicis to let him back in Florence.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Afaik, neither of those cultures were ruled by megalomaniacal immortals who tried to destroy the world twice, nor did they glorify torture and treated it as an art form.
Machiavelli's Prince read straight* is realpolitik. Staying in power and getting your stuff done without basing your actions on prescribed moral rules, just effectiveness. But it's not about ignoring morality, and it's certainly not "hard men making hard decisions while hard". He'd have contempt for those guys.
For example, the famous "it's better to be feared than loved". That version already omits two important bits. First, it directly continues with "if you can't have both". Cause you should be doing both. Second, the text then continues to emphasis that you must absolutely avoid becoming hated, and that fear isn't going to save you from that.
But more than that, if you read the entire text, it's pretty clear that "loved" is heavily shaded with "bribed your supporters to make them support you". Which yeah, easy to see how that would backfire, especially since this is pre-nationalism, in a place of constant back and forth squabbling between rulers. And "fear" has some pretty strong notes of meaning respect or authority, of following through on what you say. It's not about randomly terrorizing your people, it's more punishing those who break your laws even if it's inconvenient in the moment.
Honestly, I would recommend giving it a read, it's not that long. I think something like 160 pages? The Project Gutenberg version is pretty solid, with enough historical context to explain the references. It's interesting actually reading the thing which lurks in the background of many politics discussions, and it's more prosaic than the reputation it gets**.
*Whether it's an attempt to ass kiss back into a position of power, or it's a satire, or something else I will leave to scholars. My personal take is "If you guys will insist on being power hungry dictators instead of having a nice republic, at least be practical and efficient and don't fuck up my hometown with incompetence, and I'm going to tell you how".
**Though not as much the Sun Tsu's Art of War (Machiavelli also wrote one, so I have to specify), which is half somewhat scattered, mildly clever observations, and half very practical advice like what different types of dust clouds mean. Still a fun (and pretty quick) read, and I think the linguistics/history nerds of this quest will enjoy the translators notes on where parts come from a lot. I know I did.
For example, the famous "it's better to be feared than loved". That version already omits two important bits. First, it directly continues with "if you can't have both". Cause you should be doing both. Second, the text then continues to emphasis that you must absolutely avoid becoming hated, and that fear isn't going to save you from that.
But more than that, if you read the entire text, it's pretty clear that "loved" is heavily shaded with "bribed your supporters to make them support you". Which yeah, easy to see how that would backfire, especially since this is pre-nationalism, in a place of constant back and forth squabbling between rulers. And "fear" has some pretty strong notes of meaning respect or authority, of following through on what you say. It's not about randomly terrorizing your people, it's more punishing those who break your laws even if it's inconvenient in the moment.
Honestly, I would recommend giving it a read, it's not that long. I think something like 160 pages? The Project Gutenberg version is pretty solid, with enough historical context to explain the references. It's interesting actually reading the thing which lurks in the background of many politics discussions, and it's more prosaic than the reputation it gets**.
*Whether it's an attempt to ass kiss back into a position of power, or it's a satire, or something else I will leave to scholars. My personal take is "If you guys will insist on being power hungry dictators instead of having a nice republic, at least be practical and efficient and don't fuck up my hometown with incompetence, and I'm going to tell you how".
**Though not as much the Sun Tsu's Art of War (Machiavelli also wrote one, so I have to specify), which is half somewhat scattered, mildly clever observations, and half very practical advice like what different types of dust clouds mean. Still a fun (and pretty quick) read, and I think the linguistics/history nerds of this quest will enjoy the translators notes on where parts come from a lot. I know I did.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If anything, I'd consider the Asur to be the ones to have some very small Japanese influences - if you squint you can kinda compare the Swordmasters and Loremasters of Hoeth with samurais - elite masters of huge swords and war who tend to be considered very cultured. And Ulthuan allowing foreigners into Lothern kinda reminds me of how Japan in the Edo period allowed foreigners to come into the nation into specific ports.
...Though, it is true that the real-life Oda Nobunaga was extremely gnarly, and at one point referred to himself (probably sarcastically) as the Demon King of the Sixth Heaven. I really wouldn't be surprised if there had been an in-setting Oda Nobunaga who either was an actual Everchosen, or was tarred after his death to have had Chaotic associations.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
There's the raiding for slaves, but that's hardly unique to the vikings.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think the Viking influence was about them pillaging the rest of the world.
- Location
- Finland
True.
Vikings did raid for slaves, yes, but the slavery within norse culture and druuchi have barely anything to do with each other.
Also slaves are kinda terrible loot, especially on long voyages, better to grab something you do not need to feed and/or guard.
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Like the British you mean?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Nah, British pillaging had them plant flags and stick around. Long-term stuff.Like the British you mean?
The Druchii just grab everything (and everyone) they can and burn the rest. Much more Viking than British.
- Location
- Finland
So did the vikings, and Brits did plenty of hit and run stuff as well, and much of the riches of the land with flags planted was carted back home.
Dynamesmouse
Bzzzzzz
Given how Druuchi society is built around slavery, perhaps some comparisons to American and Caribbean chattel slavery are warranted.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Given that their nation began by breaking away from a maritime Empire that at one point was all-in on putting up colonies everywhere, I do believe the comparisons are warranted, to some extent. Not 100%, but the subtext is very much there.
The British Empire did not have the same economic model or cultural incentive as the Druchi, though to be fair neither did any IRL nation or people. What it comes down to is that Druchi society is artificial in a sense, designed from the top down in a way that the most megalomaniacal tyrants of Earth could only dream of. When the Druchi raid for slaves they do it out of personal interest and economic incentive yes, but the system they are working in is not capitalism, nor is it the tribal or feudal system the vikings operated under it is as part of the logistics of the Witch King's army of reconquest. Setting down new colonies would get in the way of those plans so the Druchi do not expand, slaves are kept in line with abject cruetly, citizens are cowed with a terror barely more refined than that, the temples are subordonate to the state with the partial exception of the temple of Khaine wherein Malaketh tries to do with propaganda what force alone cannot, proclaim himself the champion of Khaine who will purge weakness from Ulthuan. It's 'Hard Man' ideology taken to its most extreme and absurd extent so of course the pain, suffering and struggle are part of the point.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
Samurai weren't all that focused on swords until the last few centuries of their collective existence. For most of their history, the Samurai were mounted archers first, cavalrymen a loose second, and swordsmen a very distant third when literally everything else had gone wrong. And the increased focus on swordsmanship and Bushido was marked by their swords becoming smaller, to accommodate fighting on foot and indoors instead of from the saddle.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The cultural idea of the Samurai, then.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, I learned something new today. I guess they're not that alike at all, except superficially.
...I guess GW could have been drawing on superficialities, though.
Excellently put, in essence Druchii "culture" as it were is non-existent. A weird argument to bring to the table but one that has it's reflections. They are essentially an army, divided into camp and battle. The time scale that the Druchii and Asur work on let this be a thing. EX: the Long March that the Asur will go on is in essence the reflection of Druchii raiding. Low(ish) risk for high reward for each of them.
Asur do it to make sure the waystones are up, doing the battle of their long war away from the frontlines but battling what could be viewed as "insurgent" forces.
The Druchii is gaining experience, being blooded on patrols through claimed but not controlled territory, whetting them for the true battles to come.
The grand majority of Druchii (if not all) view Ulthuan as their homeland still, inhabited by traitors who pushed them out to their former frontiers. The palaces they have are nice, but it isn't home. The Druchii are essentially a permanently campaigning army and it seems Malekith likes them that way. When lifetimes can measure millennia it brings a different attitude for war making, especially with your leaders never changing. To the Druchii and to a certain extent the Asur, everything outside of them is lesser, not in a small way either, the war that has defined their species for millennia at that point?
All the talk of "culture" on behalf of the Druchii it could be argued arose out of military necessity. Soldiers getting bored in camp away from the front lines? Well Khaine is there to keep you sharp, those slaves will be tasty for him. War taking longer than expected? Raiders now plague the sea-lanes, again keeping sharp but directing wealth to pay for the soldiers. Soldiers need to eat? Enslave some humans, what do we care about them, they breed like rabbits! Every outlook leads back to Malekith, the ultimate ruler of Druchii society and his Mother, the heart of it, they don't care about Naggaroth, they care about their rightful place on Ulthuan. Anything that exists in their purview must be put to that end.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
A reminder that the Long March isn't a thing in canon, it's only in Imrix's quest.
(Canon has examples of the High Elves intervening militarily in support of human nations in the Old World, but definitely nothing like the systemized patrol of the Waystone Network like is in Paradox of Choice)
Naggarothi culture can be thought of as split into two triads. The first is the three cities occupied by and embodying the individuals that have ruled them since the very beginning: Naggarond, Malekith's city of scheming nobility being constantly goaded into turning on each other so that none can ever come close to challenging him. Ghrond, Morathi's own personal White Tower for her to train very strong contenders for the world's most underdressed magic-users and almost certainly constantly yoyo into and out of Slaanesh's clutches. And Har Ganeth, Crone Hellebron's holy city of Khaine, a place so steeped in murder they had to make murder illegal and make the punishment for it immediate murder just to stop everyone from getting murdered, with an exception for Murder Night where they were doing The Purge long before The Purge did.
The second triad are the ones actually doing the work that makes all the ridiculous excesses of the first triad possible. Hag Graef churns out metals and manpower, Clar Karond fells trees and builds ships, and Karond Kar is where they sail out of and return to with slaves and plunder. Naggarond can be thought of as an enormous machine fueled by suffering working constantly to replace the eternal bleed from the mindboggling extravagances and constant internecine bickering between the world's three worst people, and once every thousand years or so an entire continent of slaves being worked to death barely manages to eke out a surplus for Malekith to immediately waste on failing to conquer Ulthuan again.
If you want a picture of the Druchii, imagine a thousand slave-filled factories that could be producing literally anything, making boots specifically designed so that they only thing they can do is stamp on a human face, forever. The monstrosity of Naggaroth is not that it is evil, but it is so stupidly wasteful in its evil that it fails to commit evil on anything but the softest of targets. Not just that it could do so much good if it was turned to good, but it could also do so much evil if it was turned to evil with even the slightest bit of sense. Anybody can horrify the good; the Druchii transcend morality by having enough power to transform the world and using it to achieve absolutely nothing, which is offensive across all spectrums and creeds.
Picture the breakwater of Karond Kar, five kilometers long, laboriously crafted so that it looks like it is being held out of the waves by drowning slaves, to trick slaves arriving at Karond Kar into thinking that these are actual slaves and that will be their job. Slaves which would, of course, be confined in cells below decks and be completely unable to see the breakwater, and even if for some reason they were above decks, they would not be able to make out the details of mostly-submerged carvings of a breakwater in incredibly rough waters, constantly masked by the crashing icy waves that are never not crashing. Carved stone, immersed in salt water. Entire quarries dedicated to digging new rock to replace these carved slaves every few years as the seawater does what seawater does, entire bloodlines of masons to carve in details that nobody will ever see, to play a trick that has never worked on slaves that could never see it. This is the society that has trickled down from the former BFF of Grungni's eldest son.
One of the best or worst things that could happen to the world is if those three fuckwits died and literally anyone else did literally anything else with all those resources.
The second triad are the ones actually doing the work that makes all the ridiculous excesses of the first triad possible. Hag Graef churns out metals and manpower, Clar Karond fells trees and builds ships, and Karond Kar is where they sail out of and return to with slaves and plunder. Naggarond can be thought of as an enormous machine fueled by suffering working constantly to replace the eternal bleed from the mindboggling extravagances and constant internecine bickering between the world's three worst people, and once every thousand years or so an entire continent of slaves being worked to death barely manages to eke out a surplus for Malekith to immediately waste on failing to conquer Ulthuan again.
If you want a picture of the Druchii, imagine a thousand slave-filled factories that could be producing literally anything, making boots specifically designed so that they only thing they can do is stamp on a human face, forever. The monstrosity of Naggaroth is not that it is evil, but it is so stupidly wasteful in its evil that it fails to commit evil on anything but the softest of targets. Not just that it could do so much good if it was turned to good, but it could also do so much evil if it was turned to evil with even the slightest bit of sense. Anybody can horrify the good; the Druchii transcend morality by having enough power to transform the world and using it to achieve absolutely nothing, which is offensive across all spectrums and creeds.
Picture the breakwater of Karond Kar, five kilometers long, laboriously crafted so that it looks like it is being held out of the waves by drowning slaves, to trick slaves arriving at Karond Kar into thinking that these are actual slaves and that will be their job. Slaves which would, of course, be confined in cells below decks and be completely unable to see the breakwater, and even if for some reason they were above decks, they would not be able to make out the details of mostly-submerged carvings of a breakwater in incredibly rough waters, constantly masked by the crashing icy waves that are never not crashing. Carved stone, immersed in salt water. Entire quarries dedicated to digging new rock to replace these carved slaves every few years as the seawater does what seawater does, entire bloodlines of masons to carve in details that nobody will ever see, to play a trick that has never worked on slaves that could never see it. This is the society that has trickled down from the former BFF of Grungni's eldest son.
One of the best or worst things that could happen to the world is if those three fuckwits died and literally anyone else did literally anything else with all those resources.
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bony your way with words is sublime and delightful.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Three worst living people. I feel like Nagash would otherwise be there.
When you put it that way,
But what if we killed them and then enslaved their souls to our will so we could pretend they're still the same but we could do different things with those resources? Would that be better or worse than just killing them? /j
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- Location
- The internet
Being fair, the first thing literally everyone else would do with all of those resources would be to set roughly 95% of it on fire in order to be the one in charge of deciding what to do with the remaining 5% they find in the ashes.