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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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So the main argument is that to bring it back would require a standing army at the very least to fight the daemons off before they could, Vlag was far enough away but they could split off and run at any number of places....

Ok I get that but we also now have several entire polities with a vested interest in success. The state army of Tablecland would be there to help their province. Cult of Taal would mobilize a ton, probably end up making a deal with the hedge wise to defend it. The emperor could break off detachments, dwarves could/would come to avenge grudges and elves so more energy reaches Ulthuan.

I'm not saying it wouldn't take some doing but with the amount of support gained through the project and a treaty about it now in place it seems like it would be a big public win against a by definition finite force once it comes to the real world. A way to say we mean it and I feel we could swing it.

Not really arguing that it even needs to happen now, more of a question of have we given this some thought and is it even possible to @Boney kind of deal
 
Mopman43 said:
I mean, 'at some point'.

Try to see if anyone has an army lying around we could borrow?
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That's what I'm trying to get at, Tablecland would like a less evil forest, it would wick away some of Ostlands problem. They have a major cult and a state army, plus any others who come. Then add in we have the johnny come lately Asur who rely on the magical energy. I don't see them refusing a detachment to hit the heavy daemons that come through when they need the energy and it would resume a long lost flow to them.
 
hugo239111 said:
Do we have confirmation it's in Khorne space as a Slaaneshi presence? Or is it supposition?
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There is nothing in character that suggests Mathilde knows Slaanesh uses it to annoy Khorne. But out of character, the Marcher Fortress is included on the maps of the Realms of Chaos, near the border of Khorne and Slaanesh's realm. It's also described in Tome of Corruption. Boney also described it here:

Boney said:
You know horny jail? You know what it would actually be like if you rounded up everyone guilty of horny and put them in one building? That's the Marcher Fortress. Slaanesh parks it on Khorne's front lawn to piss Him off. You probably wouldn't be thanked for repossessing it on Talabecland's behalf.
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BurnNote said:
They could extend their shenanigans if they come back near something populated. But yes, mostly requires stalling
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It's near Sydow, at nexus 28 on this map. It's not the most populated section of Talabecland, but there's still several towns near it. But it does pose a problem that adding tributaries to that region would be sending that power straight to Slaanesh to abuse. I couldn't say if we can add waystones to it.

Boney said:
Do we know roughly where the Marcher Fortress was? Is there lines of inactive waystones in part of talabecland that would be functional if we rerouted their connections to the intact network? (Or Hypothetically managed to make a working Nexus to replace it)
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Southwestern Talabecland, somewhere west of the Old Forest Road, probably in the vicinity of Sydow. There's likely a lot of Waystones in southern Talabecland and northern Stirland that would have routed through it, and if it works the same way that Karak Vlag did, they might still do.
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BookwormAF said:
That reminds me, do we want to do something about the fallen nexuses in the Forest of Shadows at some point?
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Well first we would need to investigate the nexuses. Then we could do the reclamation action. I think it's important to have investigated at least all of the Imperial nexuses by the time the Project concludes.
 
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MrHobbit said:
Snip
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Ah OK, I hadn't seen the map or Boneys earlier post. In essence it is a problem but not a pressing one. It would be nice to reconnect it and help a lot of people but it is not a pressing issue. One of those someday when it's better kind of deals.

It would reinforce and provide a good stream of magic for the high elves. I imagine if we really wanted to they would lend some aid to reclamation, I just didn't see it as an option and the whole treaty things puts a number kf things in perspective.

In the waystone project page it is mentioned the dawi are willing to go to war in the forest of gloom to reconnect it to their network. Considering the state of Yvresse and the current network. Add in that there are now words on paper in an alliance to maintain and protect them it seems like such an option could be looked at in a new light.
 
It is a nexus that is currently made out of daemon mortar and Slaanesh juice. I'd rather leave it in the Warp for the time being rather than risk it ravaging Talabheim and poisoning the land for who knows how long. There are far easier nexuses to reclaim that lack the vested interest of a Chaos god, go for those first.
 
I'm very much not keen on fighting the literal hellfortress full of daemons that drives people crazy, but you should keep in mind that if the Tempter (or one of Their Greater Daemons) can control when it appears (as they did in Vlag) there's a serious risk of that 'when' being the time it would hurt the Empire the most - such as in the middle of the next Everchosen's invasion. If we brought it back we'd still have the advantages of preparation and surprise, so if we could, IDK, have a huge super-daemon-banishing ritual ready to fire at it when it returns, I think we should seriously consider Doing Something About It at some point in the next decade or two.
 
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I am more trying to feel out the idea than proposing immediate action, I agree there are far easier ones to go for first. Sylvania having a nexus, the Border Princes and brettonia are far easier.

It's more that fortress and Mordheim are both big issues within the Empire. Both are the challenging ones that i have no doubt will be contested by forces on the mortal realm and the mechanations of chaos. They are also symbols though. Fallen nexuses that would be a mark to everyone that things are changing, I thought it worth it to sound out the idea and get at least an idea on threats that we could possibly have there.

It's also one of the more isolated ones so a bit more within reach as far as planning to have a plan.
 
Ergosum said:
I'm very much not keen on fighting the literal hellfortress full of daemons that drives people crazy, but you should keep in mind that if the Tempter (or one of Their Greater Daemons) can control when it appears (as they did in Vlag) there's a serious risk of that 'when' being the time it would hurt the Empire the most - such as in the middle of the next Everchosen's invasion. If we brought it back we'd still have the advantages of preparation and surprise, so if we could, IDK, have a huge super-daemon-banishing ritual ready to fire at it when it returns, I think we should seriously consider Doing Something About It at some point in the next decade or two.
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Assuming it's still connected, if we could find a way to cut it off for good, I think that'd be a better option than fighting it.
 
Mopman43 said:
Assuming it's still connected, if we could find a way to cut it off for good, I think that'd be a better option than fighting it.
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Oh yeah, if we could figure out how we absolutely should... but I'm not sure how viable it is. For Vlag we only had to cut the power, but if we did that here there's a good chance that the Fortress will get stuck back in reality. For all we know, there might not be a way to ensure that happens.

But, well, I guess the least we could do is at least try to figure out whether we can.
 
There's no guarantee that the Marcher Fortress even works the same as Vlag. Part of the reason we were relatively confident it would return was that it was powered from this side, which allowed it to remain partly real. But there's no guarantee that when the Marcher Fortress was taken Slaanesh was interested in keeping a backdoor to reality. Given they have not used this backdoor in one of the many everchosen invasions since it was taken, it seems quite likely they didn't care, and it is likely a more-or-less permanent fixture of the warp now. Better to just reactivate and reroute any waystones in the area to point to other nexuses and leave the Fortress where it currently stands.
 
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I'm fairly certain that Slaanesh is always interested in backdoors, it's just that this particular one already has a purpose: mooning Khorne.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
There's no guarantee that the Marcher Fortress even works the same as Vlag. Part of the reason we were relatively confident it would return was that it was powered from this side, which allowed it to remain partly real. But there's no guarantee that when the Marcher Fortress was taken Slaanesh was interested in keeping a backdoor to reality. Given they have not used this backdoor in one of the many everchosen invasions since it was taken, it seems quite likely they didn't care, and it is likely a more-or-less permanent fixture of the warp now. Better to just reactivate and reroute any waystones in the area to point to other nexuses and leave the Fortress where it currently stands.
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When Mathilde was examining it was specifically stated that it echoed what happened with Karak Vlag. This isn't a guarantee that it is the same yet I have to look at it in terms of reality. Say it is lost, that would mean a permanent removal of the flow of energy, something they want more than anything. Following this logic it would be an easy check on the former location, no leyline, no worries. If it isn't lost that means it still is linked to the real world in some fashion. If we look at it as not lost than it has to exist in some form in the warp, where it could be restored. A physical link would be needed to return it, why not use the energy from the leyline? If it is a completely corrupted stack of daemon mortar and evil it is only existing from the flow of energy from the leyline, sever that and it looses it's juice. Without the constant stream it would have to be sustained from chaos, a constant stream to maintain it's presence where it shouldn't exist. A problem? yes, something that could drive things mad? absolutely, Insurmountable?

No, in my opinion. It would be something like Praag in my eyes, a chance to thumb it at the chaos gods saying yeah we still exist here, suck it.

There are better options currently and I do agree that the fortress is by no means a priority or a mystery that needs solving right now. It is just something I wanted to discuss as an option should it come up, something interesting that we really don't know much about. We just heard about it, that it disappeared into the warp, we didn't go to the Fortress and look. I'd like to look into the possibility of it, but even the investigation would be too large of an investment right now. If it isn't like Vlag we have no frame of reference, if it is then we aren't going to get them to make the same mistake twice.
 
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My big worry with the Marcher Fortress is that it has so much concentrated Slaanesh power it will effectively act as a portal should we yank it back to real space, since building up sufficient Ruinous Powers power is how you usually tear open a portal for daemons to flow through.

Remember, Vlag was never fully taken, this place is routinely used as a staging ground to wave various appendages in Khorne's face. They are not the same.

Now what would be hilarious is if it is the leyline tether that lets Slaanesh plop this thing in Khorne's realm so easily in the first place, and that cutting it suddenly leaves it horrendously vulnerable to the Blood forces all around it trying to send it to horny jail.
 
As far as the Marcher Fortress goes, it strikes me that one of the things with Vlag was that it's return wasn't actually certain until the dice was rolled. IIRC he narrative itself goes into some speculation of why Vlag was able to return later on too.

Assuming the Marcher Fortress is still linked to the Waystone network it might have to be cut off from that power eventually anyways just to restore the rest of the network. Which raises the question: Could one stop the leyline to such a place with the aim and preparations to deliberately cut off the Fortress from the mortal world forevermore? And just let a new nexus be erected to replace it. (to the degree that anything about raising a new waystone nexus can be "just" anything, save that it might still be preferable to dealing with a demon tainted fortress)
 
In canon, the Marcher Fortress is actually connected to reality through a grove of corrupted trees—lost woodsmen sometimes wander through and end up in the Realm Of Chaos. Those that return are corrupted with a mental disease know as the Sickening Lust. I'll leave it to your imaginations what that does.

So yeah, Slaanesh currently has a revolving door into the heart of Talabecland. The problem is that on the other side of it is a fortress that has been occupied and fortified by demons for centuries.

Consider this—Khorne has repeatedly failed to conquer the fortress. The God of Blood and War has never defeated the defenders of this fortress. Its towers stretch high into the sky, piercing the clouds. Its blackened walls have repulsed countless assaults. There's a windmill inside that grinds both mortal and demon into a paste that is used as mortar, reinforcing the structure with "the strength of mortality and the authority of despair".

Sure, we could pull a Drakenhof and pound it into oblivion with artillery, but the entire structure and its surroundings is heavily corrupted and infested with both demons and Slaanesh's greatest champions.

We'd essentially be pulling a chunk of the realm of chaos into reality with the intent to purge it.

Now if we could sever the link between reality and the realm of chaos, leaving the Marcher fortress trapped on the other side, that would be ideal. But we can't guarantee that doing that is possible—the fortress was originally a part of reality, and to reality it may yet return.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
In canon, the Marcher Fortress is actually connected to reality through a grove of corrupted trees—lost woodsmen sometimes wander through and end up in the Realm Of Chaos. Those that return are corrupted with a mental disease know as the Sickening Lust. I'll leave it to your imaginations what that does.

So yeah, Slaanesh currently has a revolving door into the heart of Talabecland. The problem is that on the other side of it is a fortress that has been occupied and fortified by demons for centuries.

Consider this—Khorne has repeatedly failed to conquer the fortress. The God of Blood and War has never defeated the defenders of this fortress. Its towers stretch high into the sky, piercing the clouds. Its blackened walls have repulsed countless assaults. There's a windmill inside that grinds both mortal and demon into a paste that is used as mortar, reinforcing the structure with "the strength of mortality and the authority of despair".

Sure, we could pull a Drakenhof and pound it into oblivion with artillery, but the entire structure and its surroundings is heavily corrupted and infested with both demons and Slaanesh's greatest champions.

We'd essentially be pulling a chunk of the realm of chaos into reality with the intent to purge it.

Now if we could sever the link between reality and the realm of chaos, leaving the Marcher fortress trapped on the other side, that would be ideal. But we can't guarantee that doing that is possible—the fortress was originally a part of reality, and to reality it may yet return.
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I think the Fortress returning to reality would be rather unlikely, or better said, would require a lot of effort. Mathilde had some internal discussion about Vlag and how holding it in the Warp so it could easily be returned was a difficult balancing act. I think the fortress can probably return, but it would require a significant amount of magical energy and ritual. Not that much less than summoning any other part of the chaos realm, though easier in that there's readily made hooks to grab on to.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Now if we could sever the link between reality and the realm of chaos, leaving the Marcher fortress trapped on the other side, that would be ideal. But we can't guarantee that doing that is possible—the fortress was originally a part of reality, and to reality it may yet return.
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On the other hand, even if a severing from reality is not certain, it's a course of action that I feel is plausible. The point of the suggestion here isn't to say it would necessarily go that way on a hope and a prayer, but to offer up the idea of preparing a ritual/other exploratory prepwork to guarantee a severing in a future where the quest goes that direction.

(That said, I'm aware I do over-granularize steps in how I conceive of things being done in this quest. It probably wouldn't be that many disparate steps, I suspect.)
 
@ Boney is there a verisimilitude reason that writing papers gets wizards to do us favours, or is it more a fun game mechanic thing?
 
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