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You are still arguing against Boney. If you want to argue against Boney
How am i? Genuinely what do i say that contradicts anything he said.

BeepSmile said that he doesn´t feel like it will be as easy a fix, the word of god that 10 waystones is enough to fix it got floated and i said like, yeah thats not really relevant, because what we are talking about is clearly bit more complicated than plugging 10 waystones, because Nexus should´ve already handled that much on its own.

What i, and i assume BeepSmile thought that might be presumption, meant, is that it doesn´t make sense for the nexus to need those waystones to handle Praag proper, that there is some inherent problem that is not so clearcut.
 
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How am i? Genuinely what do i say that contradicts anything he said.
:thonk:

It is incredibly dishonest of you to try to argue that making up reasons why a comment from is wrong when there has been no indication in the story to counter the post is not arguing.

Also, address the rest of the post. You gave a two word response to Tasoli and now you've done it again. To say the least, I am not impressed.

Whats in the update trumps WoG on the quest canonicity chart. And whats in the update says that there is already a waystone, possibly Nexus, in Praag. And yet its still the hellhole that it is.
 
It is incredibly dishonest of you to try to argue that making up reasons why a comment from is wrong when there has been no indication in the story to counter the post is not arguing.
My entire position is about nothing in the story indicating that its right in practical way, either. Just in theory. Can ten waystones drain the area of Praag? Like yeah, sure. Will they thought?
Also, address the rest of the post. You gave a two word response to Tasoli and now you've done it again. To say the least, I am not impressed.

Its really the only relevant part, because the rest of your argument is also suppositions built the same way i did mine. By reading and trying to hypothetise how the fuck does the setting actually work.

You disagreeing with my conclusions doesn´t make them wrong, same as me disagreeing with yours makes them wrong. I just think mine are more likely.

EDIT: Looking for more info on Nexuses i have completely dunked on myself by forgetting Altdorf has like, several, and its still so fucking weird, so clearly your average nexus really isn´t enough to handle a city, even in multiples which Altdorf seems to have, even one thats much more south than Praag is.
 
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My entire position is about nothing in the story indicating that its right in practical way, either. Just in theory. Can ten waystones drain the area of Praag? Like yeah, sure. Will they thought?

Its really the only relevant part, because the rest of your argument is also suppositions built the same way i did mine. By reading and trying to hypothetise how the fuck does the setting actually work.

You disagreeing with my conclusions doesn´t make them wrong, same as me disagreeing with yours makes them wrong. I just think mine are more likely.
Stop spaghetti posting.

You are shifting the goalposts. You were initially arguing that the post was wrong. Not about how likely it was to happen. Clearly articulate that you are dropping your previous point.

And because I just noticed an edit into your previous comment done five minutes after the initial post, BeepSmile said "my gut feeling is that Pragg won't recover faster if we add more waystones." Tasoli pointed out the WoG from Boney. You argued that the WoG was wrong. I then pointed out that it was incredibly unlikely for Boney to have forgotten that Praag has a nexus. You then again argued that Boney was mistaken. This is not the same argument as what you were saying before. Stop trying to present it as if it was.

There is a difference. You are assuming there is a contradiction. The default assumption should be that Boney, who knows more about DL than either of us, was not wrong.
 
Not trying to generally wade into the argument, but I think it is possible that the 'ten waystones' is purely Mathilde's personal estimation and this may become substantially contradicted later on in-quest.

We saw this happen with the Chaos Wastes, where Boney posted that there isn't any hard line and to a person from Araby, the Empire seems pretty Chaos-y.

Then we went to the Chaos Wastes and found there very much was a literal line of demarkation for what was 'Wastes' and what was not, with Egrimm even explicitly calling out the 'Wastes are relative' argument.

So I think it's entirely possible that Boney-is-Mathilde-is-wrong, but I think we have too little data to really come to any conclusions yet.
 
Why spend the actions? I don't like the proposal in and of itself, but that would surely have a significant action cost.

The page I posted that started with a post from Boney saying that incentives and meaningful changes would be helpful to accelerating Waystone proliferation and buy-in from the nobility. People on the page were discussing ways to achieve 'progress' by putting Waystone in visibly magic-infested cities, whereas I was attempting to point out that we have other options to incentivize noble buy-in more effectively, because short term gains (from the bundling I suggested) will still be more visible to said nobles than cleaning up far-away cities when their lands don't have problems as serious as those cities do.

It would also not be us doing it, it would be the teams of wizards (or at least one wizard) actually building/installing the things. No actions spent by us other than initial setup. Mathilda is not going to personally build and install every new Waystone, that would defy the point of making mass-producible designs.
 
I think that Nobles are capable of thinking on the medium term that less mutation represents; a certain percentage of all children are born nonviably, if you consider mutation nonviable. Reporting on the issue is spotty because the notion is quite grim, but it's enough that everybody probably knows or has heard of a family in their community that has suffered from it.

If a Waystone chain can purify Praag, the advertisement is that it communicates to Nobles that it can purify their lands.

Chaos is an invisible and almost undetectable evil that ruins life and blights crops; it has all the fear of a superstition but with the staying power of nuclear contamination.

Being able to buy a big rock that you don't have to do anything except not destroy that can turn bleeding streets into regular streets is pretty crazy. It's like all those big self aggrandizing sacrifices to the gods that nobles do, except it's a monetary transaction and you get a tangible product at the end and all the wizards you invite to your house to prove you're cultured go 'woah, this is crazy powerful' so you know you're flexing properly.
 
Not trying to generally wade into the argument, but I think it is possible that the 'ten waystones' is purely Mathilde's personal estimation and this may become substantially contradicted later on in-quest.

We saw this happen with the Chaos Wastes, where Boney posted that there isn't any hard line and to a person from Araby, the Empire seems pretty Chaos-y.

Then we went to the Chaos Wastes and found there very much was a literal line of demarkation for what was 'Wastes' and what was not, with Egrimm even explicitly calling out the 'Wastes are relative' argument.

So I think it's entirely possible that Boney-is-Mathilde-is-wrong, but I think we have too little data to really come to any conclusions yet.
I agree with the point, but it should be noted that unless we're thinking of a different post, Boney mentioned there would be a hard delineation.

I don't think we can get Praag to be exactly as it was before the Great War, but I think we can severely cut down on the corruption.

It's a spectrum. At the poles the line between reality and unreality is completely obliterated and you live or die based on the whims of laughing Gods, whereas at Praag it's higher chance of mutations and the streets bleed at night, but the sun still rises in the east and water still flows downhill. Arabyans (who live much closer to the equator and don't have to deal with things like Beastmen as a matter of course) would probably argue that the Chaos Wastes start at about Altdorf's latitude. Most of the way the Expedition will be travelling is still normal enough that you can raise horses and cattle there you know what you're doing, because otherwise the Kurgan couldn't live there.

There'll come a point where the Wastes will get really Wastey, but that's the final sprint of the Expedition rather than the whole way, and the planned route will minimize time spent in that.

The page I posted that started with a post from Boney saying that incentives and meaningful changes would be helpful to accelerating Waystone proliferation and buy-in from the nobility. People on the page were discussing ways to achieve 'progress' by putting Waystone in visibly magic-infested cities, whereas I was attempting to point out that we have other options to incentivize noble buy-in more effectively, because short term gains (from the bundling I suggested) will still be more visible to said nobles than cleaning up far-away cities when their lands don't have problems as serious as those cities do.

It would also not be us doing it, it would be the teams of wizards (or at least one wizard) actually building/installing the things. No actions spent by us other than initial setup. Mathilda is not going to personally build and install every new Waystone, that would defy the point of making mass-producible designs.
Most nobility can get access to Jade Wizards for a considerably cheaper cost than waystones. Same thing with other wizard-tasks. We would need to wrangle enough wizards to provide those bonuses to all of the people who get waystones. That would take actions to set up. That's actions not spent on, you know, waystones.

Most of the descriptions of the construction of waystones we have is that the hard tasks are centralized. The enchantments are done in a centralized location and the Rune might be done on-sight. The wizards overseeing the installation of waystones will be important enough to be told the keyphrases to connect waystones. I cannot imagine anyone but a Lord Magister being told the keyphrase and they aren't going to be doing tasks on the side like that. (Edit: On retrospect, I can see it, but the point still stands. It would have to be a magister trusted enough that would be highly ranking in the college. They aren't going to be spending time on the peasants of Hintertupfingen beyond the Waystone itself.)

It should also be noted that the main people Mathilde will be negotiating with are foreign heads of state or Elector Counts. Wizards doing wizard things that helps out on a local scale are considerably less enticing when wizards doing wizard things that helps out on the local scale is the default setting. If wizards weren't doing helpful wizard things that would be a reason to send them to the pyre.

The places where we're building waystones are places where the improvements will be obvious. Some of those will be more dramatic than others, like in the Forest of Shadows. It won't take long at all for rumors to spread of giant rocks being erected across the continent that reduces the amount of dark magic in the world.

I guess most of my feeling about it is that it just feels weirdly consumerist in a time when capitalism doesn't even exist.
 
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I think that Nobles are capable of thinking on the medium term that less mutation represents; a certain percentage of all children are born nonviably, if you consider mutation nonviable. Reporting on the issue is spotty because the notion is quite grim, but it's enough that everybody probably knows or has heard of a family in their community that has suffered from it.

If a Waystone chain can purify Praag, the advertisement is that it communicates to Nobles that it can purify their lands.

Chaos is an invisible and almost undetectable evil that ruins life and blights crops; it has all the fear of a superstition but with the staying power of nuclear contamination.

Being able to buy a big rock that you don't have to do anything except not destroy that can turn bleeding streets into regular streets is pretty crazy. It's like all those big self aggrandizing sacrifices to the gods that nobles do, except it's a monetary transaction and you get a tangible product at the end and all the wizards you invite to your house to prove you're cultured go 'woah, this is crazy powerful' so you know you're flexing properly.
We might want to figure out a way to make installing a waystone look suitably impressive. Those Nobles will likely feel better if they get a big bang for their bucks.

A bit like how people feel better about paying 1 hundred dollars for tax software when it takes 5 minutes then if it takes less then a second.
 
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It kinda does, tbh.

Boris has a lot of power, and can browbeat his aristocracy, but he can´t do it all the time. Kislev actually seeing the results as fast as possible is desirable, because then he doesn´t have to spend political power on browbeating them.

Not even Malekith has absolute power over his subjects.
But all of this is the case for the Empire too, except moreso.
 
<https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/643usq/the_fiftyseven_precepts_of_zote/>
Mathilde-type precepts:
  • Precept One: 'Always Win Your Battles'. Losing a battle earns you nothing and teaches you nothing. Win your battles, or don't engage in them at all!
  • Precept Four: 'Forget Your Past'. The past is painful, and thinking about your past can only bring you misery. Think about something else instead, such as the future, or some food.
  • Precept Five: 'Strength Beats Strength'. Is your opponent strong? No matter! Simply overcome their strength with even more strength, and they'll soon be defeated.
  • Precept Six: 'Choose Your Own Fate'. Our elders teach that our fate is chosen for us before we are even born. I disagree.
  • Precept Eleven: 'Mothers Will Always Betray You'. This Precept explains itself.
  • Precept Thirteen: 'Never Be Afraid'. Fear can only hold you back. Facing your fears can be a tremendous effort. Therefore, you should just not be afraid in the first place.
  • Precept Fourteen: 'Respect Your Superiors'. If someone is your superior in strength or intellect or both, you need to show them your respect. Don't ignore them or laugh at them.
  • Precept Fifteen: 'One Foe, One Blow'. You should only use a single blow to defeat an enemy. Any more is a waste. Also, by counting your blows as you fight, you'll know how many foes you've defeated.
  • Precept Sixteen: 'Don't Hesitate'. Once you've made a decision, carry it out and don't look back. You'll achieve much more this way.
  • Precept Twenty-Six: 'Don't Trust Your Reflection'. When peering at certain shining surfaces, you may see a copy of your own face. The face will mimic your movements and seems similar to your own, but I don't think it can be trusted.
  • Precept Thirty-Seven: 'Borrow, But Do Not Lend'. If you lend and are repaid, you gain nothing. If you borrow but do not repay, you gain everything.
  • Precept Forty-Two: 'Spend Geo When You Have It'. Some will cling onto their Geo, even taking it into the dirt with them when they die. It is better to spend it when you can, so you can enjoy various things in life.
  • Precept Forty-Four: 'You Can Not Breathe Water'. Water is refreshing, but if you try to breathe it you are in for a nasty shock.
 
We might want to figure out a way to make installing a waystone look suitably impressive. Those Nobles will likely feel better if they get a big bang for their bucks.

A bit like how people feel better about paying 1 hundred dollars for tax software when it takes 5 minutes then if it takes less then a second.
Good thing then that the natural inclination of an Ulgu wizard is a Showman.
 
Most nobility can get access to Jade Wizards for a considerably cheaper cost than waystones.

I agree with most of your points, but this does not work. Waystones lower the amount of ambient Dhar which lowers the chance of mutation. If some noble has a child mutate in the womb that is it, there isn't anything a Jade can do. That is the thing Waystones guard against, the thing to which an Elector Count is as vulnerable as a peasant.
 
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I agree with most of your points, but this does not work. Waystones lower the amount of ambient Dhar which lowers the chance of mutation. If some noble has a child mutate in the womb that is it, there isn't anything a Jade can do. That is the thing Waystones guard against, the thing to which an Elector Count is as vulnerable as a peasant.
That is not my point. Waystones would be hilariously more expensive than hiring the service of a Jade wizard. Thus it does not make sense to try to bundle it together. Trying throw wizard services on top of the waystone installation is just bizarre.
 
Karak Dum. Its far, far North of chaos wastes border constantly and it still saps enough to noticeably lower the ambient level.

EDIT:

To expand on it, the Dum waystone/nexus whatever the fuck the dwarf adaptation is has cleared a sphere 25 kilometress across in middle of chaos wastes in two hundred years. In the same time Praag still has bleeding streets. Sure, Elven Nexuses with Ice Witch adaptations may not be exactly comparable but thats still really weird, isn´t it?
Dwarf Waystones are entire mountains, and Dum also has a literal god squatting on it going, "This is MY domain, MY people, f off," in the place where gods have the most sway over the local geography.
 
I may have misread what Boney said, but the impression I get is that if we can somehow demonstrate that having a Waystone in your backyard is an objectively good thing, in the sense of 'I can use this to get benefits/this benefits me by existing', suddenly everyone will want them.

Not like, clear out a forest of horrors or something.
 
Precept Five: 'Strength Beats Strength'. Is your opponent strong? No matter! Simply overcome their strength with even more strength, and they'll soon be defeated.
Precept Five: 'Luck Beats Strength'. Is your opponent strong? No matter! Simply overcome their strength with even greater luck, and as their strength is expended against other foes they'll soon be defeated.
 
I think Praag would be a good first target for another reason that no one has brought up yet, the place has cultists but no real army to contest us. It's not like Mordheim where who knows what could still be down in that underground. And heck when it comes to relatively minor cultists it might allow us to figure out what that 'gift' from the Indecisive Mollusk does under conditions that are not 'the Everchosen marches south'.
 
Praag is a great target because it's trivial to actually put way stones there, and it's going to prove it's usefulness quickly. I doubt it's objectively the best place to put them, but there's very little in the way of obstacles there, and it's a good test bed to get people excited about the possibilities.

I may have misread what Boney said, but the impression I get is that if we can somehow demonstrate that having a Waystone in your backyard is an objectively good thing, in the sense of 'I can use this to get benefits/this benefits me by existing', suddenly everyone will want them.

Not like, clear out a forest of horrors or something.

It wouldn't clear out the forest of horrors alone, but it would make it significantly easier to clear it out
 
Praag is culturally significant as the place where Chaos was defeated. To double down on that defeat and purify the land, ending its curse and reclaiming it for civilisation, would be a massive piece of PR.

The designers behind the new "Old World" canon for Warhammer claim that Praag is the beginning of the end, the "Siege of Terra" which resulted in the inevitability of the End Times.

In DL, we have the opportunity to reverse that, to permanently reinforce Praag as the line in the sand between Chaos and the rest of the world.
 
Also Praag, unlike Mordheim, has people still living in it. There's probably not much difference between cleansing Mordheim now and doing so, say, five years from now. But the sooner we start cleansing Praag, the sooner the lives of thousands of people will very significantly improve.

And Praag is the first line of defence against Chaos (well, the second now that there's Vlag, but still). If the next Everchosen, whoever it ends up being, reaches Mordheim, the forces of Civilization are already in trouble, and it's not like they'd be able to do much with the place anyways. But any Everchosen that attacks the Old world will march on Praag first, and it would be ideal if by then the place isn't still full of Chaos corruption.
 
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