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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Yeah, like, Praag was a very bizarre choice of fixation for Old World's writers to pick as the definitive 'point of no return, from here on Chaos' victory is guaranteed!' battle, putting aside the whole choice to slap Fantasy fans in the face by saying something so egregiously stupid in the first place. Its loss is supposed to be tragic because the Fire Spire inside its walls was the single biggest repository of magical lore that had been developed by humans independently of any other arcane traditions, and one can only speculate as to what might still be found in the abandoned ruins.

It also retroactively makes the Phoenix King's decision to not send any more forces to help defeat Asavar Kul far worse. Yes, existential war against Dark Elves and all that, but the key lynchpin to the whole world not going kaboom is under direct threat, and as one-half of the whole Waystone Network's creators, that should be a known fact to them.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Praag is culturally significant as the place where Chaos was defeated. To double down on that defeat and purify the land, ending its curse and reclaiming it for civilisation, would be a massive piece of PR.

The designers behind the new "Old World" canon for Warhammer claim that Praag is the beginning of the end, the "Siege of Terra" which resulted in the inevitability of the End Times.

In DL, we have the opportunity to reverse that, to permanently reinforce Praag as the line in the sand between Chaos and the rest of the world.
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A pox upon that design choice, a pox I say! Only thing worse is painting the Reign of Three Emperors as a better time for the Empire than that following Magnus the Pious.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Yeah, like, Praag was a very bizarre choice of fixation for Old World's writers to pick as the definitive 'point of no return, from here on Chaos' victory is guaranteed!' battle
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Given some of the new details about pre-GWAC Kislev in the core rulebook for The Old World, which has a substantially larger Kislev that even has some far-flung cities out in the Steppes, it almost seems to be presenting Kislev being dramatically weakened as the fatal flaw in the Old World's survival.

Sir_Travelsalot said:
Its loss is supposed to be tragic because the Fire Spire inside its walls was the single biggest repository of magical lore that had been developed by humans independently of any other arcane traditions, and one can only speculate as to what might still be found in the abandoned ruins.
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I think that's placing considerably more importance in the Fire Spire than any canon narrative ever has.

The Fire Spire is only ever mentioned in Realm of the Ice Queen, and only has 2 paragraphs and a couple other brief mentions outside of those paragraphs. The narrative really doesn't present the loss of the Fire Spire as the greatest loss from Pragg's corruption.
 
pucflek said:
To expand on it, the Dum waystone/nexus whatever the fuck the dwarf adaptation is has cleared a sphere 25 kilometress across in middle of chaos wastes in two hundred years. In the same time Praag still has bleeding streets. Sure, Elven Nexuses with Ice Witch adaptations may not be exactly comparable but thats still really weird, isn´t it?
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"Replaced with a desert that eats people and seems to be tied to Morghur's presence" does not seem to be a straightforward definition of "cleared".
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
It also retroactively makes the Phoenix King's decision to not send any more forces to help defeat Asavar Kul far worse. Yes, existential war against Dark Elves and all that, but the key lynchpin to the whole world not going kaboom is under direct threat, and as one-half of the whole Waystone Network's creators, that should be a known fact to them.
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At the time Praag was wrecked Phoenix King was getting curbstomped on his homeground. There wasn't an organized army available to send. I think his decision to not send a single soul to fight Chaos in the aftermatch of Ulthuan invasion is controversial, but during the invasion is not.
 
Andres said:
<https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/643usq/the_fiftyseven_precepts_of_zote/>
Mathilde-type precepts:
  • Precept One: 'Always Win Your Battles'. Losing a battle earns you nothing and teaches you nothing. Win your battles, or don't engage in them at all!
  • Precept Four: 'Forget Your Past'. The past is painful, and thinking about your past can only bring you misery. Think about something else instead, such as the future, or some food.
  • Precept Five: 'Strength Beats Strength'. Is your opponent strong? No matter! Simply overcome their strength with even more strength, and they'll soon be defeated.
  • Precept Six: 'Choose Your Own Fate'. Our elders teach that our fate is chosen for us before we are even born. I disagree.
  • Precept Eleven: 'Mothers Will Always Betray You'. This Precept explains itself.
  • Precept Thirteen: 'Never Be Afraid'. Fear can only hold you back. Facing your fears can be a tremendous effort. Therefore, you should just not be afraid in the first place.
  • Precept Fourteen: 'Respect Your Superiors'. If someone is your superior in strength or intellect or both, you need to show them your respect. Don't ignore them or laugh at them.
  • Precept Fifteen: 'One Foe, One Blow'. You should only use a single blow to defeat an enemy. Any more is a waste. Also, by counting your blows as you fight, you'll know how many foes you've defeated.
  • Precept Sixteen: 'Don't Hesitate'. Once you've made a decision, carry it out and don't look back. You'll achieve much more this way.
  • Precept Twenty-Six: 'Don't Trust Your Reflection'. When peering at certain shining surfaces, you may see a copy of your own face. The face will mimic your movements and seems similar to your own, but I don't think it can be trusted.
  • Precept Thirty-Seven: 'Borrow, But Do Not Lend'. If you lend and are repaid, you gain nothing. If you borrow but do not repay, you gain everything.
  • Precept Forty-Two: 'Spend Geo When You Have It'. Some will cling onto their Geo, even taking it into the dirt with them when they die. It is better to spend it when you can, so you can enjoy various things in life.
  • Precept Forty-Four: 'You Can Not Breathe Water'. Water is refreshing, but if you try to breathe it you are in for a nasty shock.
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Zote (or possibly Zoat?): "Precept Eighteen: 'Seek Truth in the Darkness'. This Precept also explains itself."
Mathilde: "Got it, time to go mining for BÖÖK"
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
It also retroactively makes the Phoenix King's decision to not send any more forces to help defeat Asavar Kul far worse. Yes, existential war against Dark Elves and all that, but the key lynchpin to the whole world not going kaboom is under direct threat, and as one-half of the whole Waystone Network's creators, that should be a known fact to them.
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The Dwarfs weren't at Praag. The Empire wasn't at Praag. No one outside of Kislev was at Praag. I'm pretty sure that Teclis wasn't on the continent yet either and Ulthuan was completely unaware of a new Everchosen attacking.

I also think that the Fall of Praag being the key event is more about its irrevesible decline into a hellscape that couldn't meaningfully be defended and not about it being key to the Waystone Network since the Network never failed in End Times. Archaon just ripped open a new portal and without a 'balancing' portal on the other side of the world it grew until the whole planet was inside.
 
Aranfan said:
To accentuate the point, the angriest the dawi have ever been against the Empire is when deiter failed utterly in the face of Grom. But averland still tried to defend black fire pass.
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Contrary to what they might say the dwarfs are not the ultimate arbiter of how 'bad' another state is. The Karaz Ankor has its own flaws which played into the tragedy of the War of the Beard/Vengeance.

This has been your daily reminder to fight meta-dawi infection. :V
 
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DragonParadox said:
Contrary to what they might say the dwarfs are not the ultimate arbiter of how 'bad' another state is. The Karaz Ankor has its own flaws which played into the tragedy of the War of the Beard/Vengeance.

This has been your daily reminder to fight meta-dawi infection. :V
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I mean, when it comes to "how good or bad an ally is the empire" I imagine the dawi opinion does count for a lot.
 
Aranfan said:
I mean, when it comes to "how good or bad an ally is the empire" I imagine the dawi opinion does count for a lot.
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It's not the best comparison because the Empire was never a peer power and thus there was never any friction. Both the Empire and the Karaz Ankor need each other in a darkening world. Of course that was true of Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor in the heady heights of the Golden Age, but both of them failed to keep sight of that fact. It's lifeboat politics with the sharks spiraling ever closer in the former case and all of them having withdrawn over the horizon in the latter. I would hesitate to make a judgement of comparative virtue personally.
 
DragonParadox said:
It's not the best comparison because the Empire was never a peer power and thus there was never any friction.
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I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Like, both of those parts. You can argue about for how long the Empire has been a peer to the Karaz Ankor, but it's at least since Magnus. The Karaz Ankor is better at some things than the empire, but if the two were hostile, then long term I'd give better odds to the empire. And of course there has been tension. In quest, there was Ostermark pissing of the dwarfs and having to clam things down. Parts of the Karaz Ankor have gone to war with parts of the empire over grudges and such (see the story Mathilde told about a fortress getting raised because they didn't quite pay for it).
 
BurnNote said:
I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Like, both of those parts. You can argue about for how long the Empire has been a peer to the Karaz Ankor, but it's at least since Magnus. The Karaz Ankor is better at some things than the empire, but if the two were hostile, then long term I'd give better odds to the empire. And of course there has been tension. In quest, there was Ostermark pissing of the dwarfs and having to clam things down. Parts of the Karaz Ankor have gone to war with parts of the empire over grudges and such (see the story Mathilde told about a fortress getting raised because they didn't quite pay for it).
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Point of order, it was Talabecland that pissed off Karak Kadrin, not Ostermark (Ostermark was solidly in cooperation with Karak Kadrin). And Talabecland never escalated to violence; in fact, they hurriedly backed down and tried to mollify Karak Kadrin so that things would deescalate.

And yes, in terms of peer power...the Karaz Ankor has major benefits in that its major cities are basically citadels inside mountains (or atop them), complete with runic defenses.

But in terms of power projection, it's worth remembering that a force of 40,000 dwarves (many of whom were not professional warriors) was considered a mark of pride by the dwarves...while such numbers would not even match what Stirland alone could muster (and sustain). The Karaz Ankor doesn't usually form up armies and send them out to attack foes of comparable might, because they can't sustain such attrition. The Empire does so regularly.

The Empire is stronger now than it has ever been, and still it goes out of its way to avoid a war with Marienburg despite having plenty of justifiable reasons to want to reclaim the belligerent, corrupt rebels...because the Empire understands and believes in pragmatism and picking your battles. The dwarves and the asur did not, and paid the price for it in spades.
 
BurnNote said:
I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Like, both of those parts. You can argue about for how long the Empire has been a peer to the Karaz Ankor, but it's at least since Magnus. The Karaz Ankor is better at some things than the empire, but if the two were hostile, then long term I'd give better odds to the empire. And of course there has been tension. In quest, there was Ostermark pissing of the dwarfs and having to clam things down. Parts of the Karaz Ankor have gone to war with parts of the empire over grudges and such (see the story Mathilde told about a fortress getting raised because they didn't quite pay for it).
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'Peer power' does not mean who would win in a hypothetical white room battle to the death in fact it would be more reasonable to give more weight to economic matters since that is the arena in which the two meet on a regular basis and well it has been something of a theme in this quest that from an Imperial perspective dwarfs have All the Money (TM). Also even militarily and even granting for the sake of arguments that there is military parity of some kind now 'since Magnus' isn't really worth that much for a dwarf, that is less than 200 years, two dwarf generations since the Empire functionally did not exist.

Also like it says above add the impossible to siege fortresses to the infinite money glitch, the Empire is not a peer, though of course the Karaz Ankor would massively loose out from the lack of imperial support and trade. Imperials are a lot more useful as allies than they are dangerous as enemies if you are a dwarf hence lifeboat politics.

Also the fact that their major religion is pro dwarf is... very fortunate for the dwarfs. If we did not know the history of Sigmar OOC it would not be hard to presuppose some fore-thoughtful dwarf helped the cult along as a form of social engineering. As it is fortunate happenstance that makes the Empire look even less like a potential rival
 
SaltyWaffles said:
The Empire is stronger now than it has ever been, and still it goes out of its way to avoid a war with Marienburg despite having plenty of justifiable reasons to want to reclaim the belligerent, corrupt rebels...because the Empire understands and believes in pragmatism and picking your battles. The dwarves and the asur did not, and paid the price for it in spades.
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It would be unfair to say the Empire believes in pragmatism. If the Chamberblain of the Seal ever saw an advantage in picking a fight to the knife over a point of principle he'd do it immediately.
 
JevvyPython said:
It would be unfair to say the Empire believes in pragmatism. If the Chamberblain of the Seal ever saw an advantage in picking a fight to the knife over a point of principle he'd do it immediately.
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That would be pragmatic though. Pragmatic does not mean peaceful, it means you do what is in your best interest and you have some capacity to recognize that. The War of the Beard was not in the best interest of either combatant, but a spiral of pride, folly bitterness and spite that almost destroyed both of them and did leave them a shadow of their former selves.
 
DragonParadox said:
That would be pragmatic though. Pragmatic does not mean peaceful, it means you do what is in your best interest and you have some capacity to recognize that. The War of the Beard was not in the best interest of either combatant, but a spiral of pride, folly bitterness and spite that almost destroyed both of them and did leave them a shadow of their former selves.
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That was intended humorously...
 
DragonParadox said:
it would be more reasonable to give more weight to economic matters since that is the arena in which the two meet on a regular basis and well it has been something of a theme in this quest that from an Imperial perspective dwarfs have All the Money (TM).
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While this is true, you have to keep in mind that due to cultural, populational and even geographical reasons dwarfs actually struggle with putting that money to good use. They can not expand their armies not because they can not afford it, but because there are not enpugh dwarfs to be recruited. They can not make even more guns or canons or runic items, not because they have no cash but because they don't have extra engineers or runesmiths to make that extra gear. Etc etc.
And in hypothetical Karaz Ankor-Empire conflict the biggest problem for the dwarfs would be pure geography. Simply because with the Empire turning hostile overland communication between holds would become impossible again, just like it was before Sigmar. And with Underway still shattered Karaz Ankor would be once again reduced to a collection of isolated holds with no reliable trade, communication or cooperation possible.
 
Altom said:
While this is true, you have to keep in mind that due to cultural, populational and even geographical reasons dwarfs actually struggle with putting that money to good use. They can not expand their armies not because they can not afford it, but because there are not enpugh dwarfs to be recruited. They can not make even more guns or canons or runic items, not because they have no cash but because they don't have extra engineers or runesmiths to make that extra gear. Etc etc.
And in hypothetical Karaz Ankor-Empire conflict the biggest problem for the dwarfs would be pure geography. Simply because with the Empire turning hostile overland communication between holds would become impossible again, just like it was before Sigmar. And with Underway still shattered Karaz Ankor would be once again reduced to a collection of isolated holds with no reliable trade, communication or cooperation possible.
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The thing is by just assuming the Empire turning hostile you are giving them an early win/obviating one of their greatest weaknesses. In the situation of the Imperial government turning hostile the Karaz Ankor could probably peel off quite a few electors between Money: YES and Sigmarite dogma and they would probably look first to the ones they need to keep their holds in contact with one another.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is by just assuming the Empire turning hostile you are giving them an early win/obviating one of their greatest weaknesses. In the situation of the Imperial government turning hostile the Karaz Ankor could probably peel off quite a few electors between Money: YES and Sigmarite dogma and they would probably look first to the ones they need to keep their holds in contact with one another.
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Agreed. An Emperor declaring war on the Karaz Ankor probably ends with that Emperor being deposed and an apology to the High King from his successor.
 
Altom said:
While this is true, you have to keep in mind that due to cultural, populational and even geographical reasons dwarfs actually struggle with putting that money to good use. They can not expand their armies not because they can not afford it, but because there are not enpugh dwarfs to be recruited. They can not make even more guns or canons or runic items, not because they have no cash but because they don't have extra engineers or runesmiths to make that extra gear. Etc etc.
And in hypothetical Karaz Ankor-Empire conflict the biggest problem for the dwarfs would be pure geography. Simply because with the Empire turning hostile overland communication between holds would become impossible again, just like it was before Sigmar. And with Underway still shattered Karaz Ankor would be once again reduced to a collection of isolated holds with no reliable trade, communication or cooperation possible.
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The KA seems to stay in contact largely through gyrocopter anyway, not overland. Overland is good for trade, but communication and cooperation would likely not change a bit.
 
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