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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Wutnhammer said:
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering) Gift Quote Reply Report

A plan with all the stuff I wanted, terrific
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I think you didn't mean to add "Gift Quote Reply Report" to your vote. (Edit: sorry to respond, I just saw ReImagined's comment)

StormySky said:
I'm against the reverse-engineered storage. We do not have the enchanters to mass-produce this, and while I'm sure the ancients used an easier way of producing the same enchantment, meaning it exists, I don't see the point of wasting time trying to find it when we already have other solutions that work just as well.
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To be fair, the more waystones we make the easier it will get. That Von Tarnus can do it might mean that the refined version would allow humans to make it. It seems like it would be very efficient once it is reverse-engineered. The examples we have seen have lasted for millennia.

It also is just the coolest in my opinion. I'm sure Ulthuan's expertise would make the process easier than it otherwise might be.
 
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StormySky said:
I don't see the point of wasting time trying to find it when we already have other solutions that work just as well.
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The entire value proposition is that we don't. The bet that Reverse Engineering makes is that it starts off worse but becomes better in the long run. That might be wrong, or the payoff might take too long to be worth it, but that's by no means guaranteed. The possible upside (For example, maybe it refines out to moderately complicated 25% of the way through deployment, still more complicated than the simple difficulty alternatives, but potentially giving high cost level storage for low cost pricing.) is certainly not guaranteed either, but neither does it appear to be an impossible outcome.
 
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)

While I'm personally very interested in creating an emergency response waystone at some point, and plan to view for that next turn of possible, we committed Gambler and the full Project staff to this action. If there was ever a time to go all in on quality and features, it's right now.
 
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MrHobbit said:
To be fair, the more waystones we make the easier it will get. That Von Tarnus can do it might mean that the refined version would allow humans to make it. It seems like it would be very efficient once it is reverse-engineered. The examples we have seen have lasted for millennia.
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Von Tarnus was an absolute prodigy of an enchanter. How many +2 Magic staffs do Magisters these days have running around? And what's to say our current stuff can't also last ages?

It might get easier. It maybe kinda sorta will be better, maybe. But it's not a bet I want to piss piles of AP down the drain for, not when we have so many other avenues to be exploring. Just chasing after the tail of the ancients when it's proven we're perfectly capable of breaking new ground ourselves is like the opposite of cool.
 
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StormySky said:
I'm against the reverse-engineered storage. We do not have the enchanters to mass-produce this, and while I'm sure the ancients used an easier way of producing the same enchantment, meaning it exists, I don't see the point of wasting time trying to find it when we already have other solutions that work just as well.
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Note that other solutions don't work just as well. The other high capacity solutions are much more expensive (high cost compared to low) than the reverse engineered storage.

The reverse engineered storage may also be higher capacity even than the best of the other options, although that's less certain.

StormySky said:
Von Tarnus was an absolute prodigy of an enchanter. How many +2 Magic staffs do Magisters these days have running around these days? And what's to say our current stuff can't also last ages?

It might get easier. It maybe kinda sorta will be better, maybe. But it's not a bet I want to piss piles of AP down the drain for, not when we have so many other avenues to be exploring. Just chasing after the tail of the ancients when it's proven we're perfectly capable of breaking new ground ourselves is like the opposite of cool.
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I think the implication is that it will get better on its own as the process is refined by the experience of making it multiple times, not that Mathilde needs to invest a pile of AP in the problem.
 
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MrHobbit said:
The Brass Keep. I haven't updated the public map with the Laurelorn network, but I was always wondering which nexus the Brass Keep linked to. The Brass Keep is nexus 27. The closest nexus to it is Middenheim. If that guess is correct, and it might not be, it should be a simple matter to get Laurelorn to help with the Brass Keep. But the Brass Keep has been held by the enemy long enough that it might not be salvageable.

Though I still want to investigate Laurelorn's network. I want to know why Salzenmund has a nexus and Kor Immarmor does not.

I'll update the map once we get the results of the Karaz Ankor network action.
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The Brass Keep connecting to Middenheim honestly feels like safe bet, given how close they are to one another. As for Salzenmund, that's a great question. One of Boney's old posts suggests Salzenmund is not a former Elf or Dwarf outpost upon which humans built up on, leaving its nexushood a question. Another good reason to check up on the Laurelorn network, misleading though its name may be.

...As for the Karaz Ankor, well, I'm certain their action will reveal interesting things, like any particular vulnerabilities and hopefully some insight on how to best connect waystones to their Holds, but just like with Laurelorn, Thorgrim signed the Accords, so we might be able to just straight-up ask Boney right now about where exactly the Dwarf part of the network connects to the rest.

They kinda have to be connected, given that feeling it through the leylines is how Laurelorn found out about K8P reconnecting.
 
Boney said:
Mathilde applied her own insight into the nature of Ulgu into making her staff. She'd be theoretically capable of doing so for other Winds, but it's like a musician making their own instrument vs the same musician making an instrument they've never played and can never play. They'd have the theoretical knowledge, but none of the first-hand experience.
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Von Tarnus didn't just make a +2 magic staff , he made a staff that applies to all 8 of the winds, 7 of which he is metaphorically blind/deaf towards to.
 
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
I really feel like the building a better future waystone would be far better off as the second one we make and this one is the more general purpose one.
 
I see no reason to slow down waystone deployment refining a bootleg version of Saphery's foundation when we could instead be shaking down Saphery for their already refined method of creating it. Once we have that, we can make an informed choice about whether or not it's a worthwhile alternative to the already practical options we have now.
 
[X] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)
 
Prime 2.0 said:
I see no reason to slow down waystone deployment refining a bootleg version of Saphery's foundation when we could instead be shaking down Saphery for their already refined method of creating it. Once we have that, we can make an informed choice about whether or not it's a worthwhile alternative to the already practical options we have now.
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That rather assumes that Saphery knows the original method of making the Waystone storage enchantment.

And let's be honest, the thread is exceptionally unlike to spend the AP to make a minor modification to a Waystone design to switch out a single component. If we want the original design for the battery included, we basically need to do so now. If we shake better enchanting techniques out of Saphery later, then it will just accelerate how fast it becomes easier to make the reverse-engineered battery.
 
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StormySky said:
Von Tarnus was an absolute prodigy of an enchanter. How many +2 Magic staffs do Magisters these days have running around? And what's to say our current stuff can't also last ages?

It might get easier. It maybe kinda sorta will be better, maybe. But it's not a bet I want to piss piles of AP down the drain for, not when we have so many other avenues to be exploring. Just chasing after the tail of the ancients when it's proven we're perfectly capable of breaking new ground ourselves is like the opposite of cool.
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Von Tarnus is compared to Archmages in that line. The point of the component is that it will get simplified from needing people on the level of Von Tarnus and Elven Archmages to being achievable by more people the more we do it.

We won't be doing the refining, that will be done off-screen. My guess is that it will delay the date of completion for waystone erection in provinces. With that number gradually going down the more we use the golden age storage.

Parabola said:
The Brass Keep connecting to Middenheim honestly feels like safe bet, given how close they are to one another. As for Salzenmund, that's a great question. One of Boney's old posts suggests Salzenmund is not a former Elf or Dwarf outpost upon which humans built up on, leaving its nexushood a question. Another good reason to check up on the Laurelorn network, misleading though its name may be.

...As for the Karaz Ankor, well, I'm certain their action will reveal interesting things, like any particular vulnerabilities and hopefully some insight on how to best connect waystones to their Holds, but just like with Laurelorn, Thorgrim signed the Accords, so we might be able to just straight-up ask Boney right now about where exactly the Dwarf part of the network connects to the rest.

They kinda have to be connected, given that feeling it through the leylines is how Laurelorn found out about K8P reconnecting.
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The Brass Keep probably links directly to Tor Lithanel. All of Laurelorn's network links directly to it. Most sources I'm aware of do not suggest that Salzenmund was inhabited by elves or dwarfs during the Golden Age. The elven centers of population in Nordland back then were Athel Toralien (Neues Emskrank) and Tor Lithanel. It was mentioned in Salzenmund: City of Salt and Silver (WFRP 4e) to have been kept as a hunting ground for elves, but that was released well after Boney prepared the Waystone Project.

The pie in the sky dream I have for the Karaz Ankor network action is that it gives us the option to reclaim and reactivate Karaz Ghumzul. Anyways, they don't connect, Mathilde would have seen that. But it seems like they have echoes of connection.

I want to have Cadaeth and Aksel on both the Laurelorn network and the Forest of Shadows nexus actions.

That list was mentioned by Boney later to be incomplete.

Still, this reminds me.
Boney said:
The creation of new nexuses is not a logical and easy next step for the Waystone Project. It'd be more of an absolutely insanely overambitious moonshot that is practically guaranteed to kill everyone in the general area if you mess up and has a non-zero chance of depopulating a province.
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Why the hell did the elves of the Golden Age put so many damn nexuses in the area of the Middle Mountains? If that is the risk that comes with trying to make them? Obviously it was less risky in the Golden Age, but why the hell are there so many? There are at least four in it and bordering it. There's an additional seven near those.

Borek mentioned something about it drawing the Karaz Ghumzul dwarfs, but that is still a lot.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
A safe one, considering Elf Batman confirmed they know how to make entire golden age waystones.
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He didn't that I can see. What he said was:

Boney said:
"The Waystones we have covered your lands and ours in is the artisanry of the Inner Kingdoms. In every foreseen scenario, it performs its task perfectly. But it does not deal well with the unforeseen, or with deliberate sabotage. What you have created may not be fit for Saphery's libraries, but there may be a place in Yvresse's armouries for something that can be taught and deployed quicker and easier than a Sapherian masterpiece."
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Nowhere there does it say they know the original methods used to build Waystones, or even that they can build them at all. Something that can be built at all would be quicker and easier than a Sapherian masterpiece that is impossible to build and would never be deployed.

Even if they can build it, they may have to use a horrible kludge similar to the one the Grey Lords invented.

I mean, hopefully they do know how, so we can select Reverse Engineered storage and be pleasantly surprised at how quick it is to refine the construction method with Ulthuan's help. It just feels like that would be too easy.
 
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Magic flows from the poles right? Does that mean if we strengthen the network in kislev everything south of there will improve due to less magic making it past?
 
I guess amongst the leading options I'd take :

[X] Plan Building A Better Future

Although I think a collegiate version might be better :

[X] Plan Building A Better Future (Collegiate edition)
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

I don't think it's worth it to make a more complicated enchantement for the foundation just because the simpler one is limited to hysh casters. It allows us to potentially reward the Light College for their contribution since they're the ones who came up with it and makes the contribution of the colleges a bit bigger, which is a good thing since the Empire is going to need a TON of waystones.

And if the Light College can keep up with the demand, well there are plenty of elven hysh casters to take up the slack. All in all, I think that there are enough hysh casters in the combined polities that a simpler enchantement is a pure win with very little drawback and potential political advantage for Mathilde and her allies (I'd imagine it would be a boon to Egrimm, Elrisse and Mira).
 
[x] Plan Building A Better Future
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven
- [x] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)
[x] Plan: Repairing The Network First
- [x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
- [x] [RUNE] Dwarven
- [x] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
- [x] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
- [x] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
 
Prime 2.0 said:
I see no reason to slow down waystone deployment refining a bootleg version of Saphery's foundation when we could instead be shaking down Saphery for their already refined method of creating it. Once we have that, we can make an informed choice about whether or not it's a worthwhile alternative to the already practical options we have now.
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For whatever reason it doesn't appear that's in the offering.

Boney said:
- Ulthuan's assistance will be automatically sought during future Waystone actions that they'd have useful insight into.
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Whether the reason they aren't giving us a refined version is because they won't or because they can't is a different question but either way it doesn't seem like something we'll be able to just pick up out of the box.
 
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Sparsebeard said:
I guess amongst the leading options I'd take :

[X] Plan Building A Better Future

Although I think a collegiate version might be better :

[X] Plan Building A Better Future (Collegiate edition)
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

I don't think it's worth it to make a more complicated enchantement for the foundation just because the simpler one is limited to hysh casters. It allows us to potentially reward the Light College for their contribution since they're the ones who came up with it and makes the contribution of the colleges a bit bigger, which is a good thing since the Empire is going to need a TON of waystones.

And if the Light College can keep up with the demand, well there are plenty of elven hysh casters to take up the slack. All in all, I think that there are enough hysh casters in the combined polities that a simpler enchantement is a pure win with very little drawback and potential political advantage for Mathilde and her allies (I'd imagine it would be a boon to Egrimm, Elrisse and Mira).
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Though if you really want a Collegiate edition, it might be better to swap out the Stone Flower for the Collegiate Fascis.
 
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
 
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