[X] Plan: Mass leyline
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Or the 'just have apprentices do it', exception, these are still pretty simple runes.
- Location
- Finland
Runesmith: I'm just making a set
Bystander: Of ten thousand?
Runesmith: It's a large set, we're trying to circle the world with it.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
You're right concerning what Boney said, but i'be always thought that High Magic was taught to elves only after they had mastered all 8 Winds, and those who succeed to learn Qaysh become Archmages.
it has to be, because otherwise all possible combinations of Runes would have been use already after a few centuries, and they wouldn't be used as regularly in infrastructures. The Rule of Pride is an abstraction used to justify why a player can't just spam a particular combination of Runes in his army.
For all we know they taught the elves' archmages Arcane Khazalid and shared other runesmithing adjacent secrets that weren't actual dwarven runes which the elves used to learn how to write better enchantments.
Being an apprentices isn't an exception to the rule against a runesmiths duplicating their own work, only to the rule against a runesmith directly copying from another runesmith.
From what Boney has said it's canon that runesmiths won't duplicate their own work.
We can't get another copy of our sword made, for example.
Another runesmith can independently recreate an item with a set of runes or a runesmith's apprentice can copy one of their master's items, but that's it, I think, with some flexibility for sets of items, but we don't know the limits on that or if it's applicable here.
I'm away from my books, so I'll check when I get home. I think Realms of Sorcery 2E is the only place where it's discussed. It may actually be after they master their first Wind they can start learning High Magic, thinking about it.
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- Location
- Finland
Also, Kragg placed tose detection runes around K8P to protect the hold from Skaven attacks.
So it can't be as simple as "no doing same set of runes".
There was also the fire resistance rune Kragg made for the metalsmith when making Branulhune, presumably it was not the first time he had made one.
Easiest explanation might be that runesmith don't consider single runes like that being under Rule of Pride?
And/Or maybe runic protections of a hold are considered part of hold and hold is considered a singular item?
I mean it kind of has to be, there is no way you can learn something without a degree of repetition, unless they destroy every copy of say the Rune of Stone they made while learning to strike the Rune of Stone, which does not sound like a very respectful attitude to the craft.
If Thorek isn't worried about the Rule of Pride, you shouldn't be.
Expensive materials, but not in a way that has resale value.
Expensive materials, but not in a way that has resale value.
Or Kragg's just that good that he invents a new slightly different rune with very similar effects every time.
IIRC Realms of Sorcery 2E has most runes exist in two variants. Weaker/Single use triggered versions of runes to which the Rule of Pride doesn't apply, which is what junior runesmiths mostly make. These are below the materiality of the tabletop, like non-battle magic. It also has permanent versions of runes which the Rule of Pride does apply to that work forever. Younger ruensmiths practice and learn with the single use versions.
For the permanent runes, whether or not the above exist in Boney canon, presumably for most runes runesmiths practice until they're perfect on the individual steps before putting them all together for their one solo rune. If it fails they've not made the rune, and if they exceed the rune is made and they move onto the next. A failed version of the rune isn't the rune, after all.
I think the Rune of Stone may be the one rune outside the Rule of Pride as well, so runesmiths can make multiple copies.
Edit: ninja-ed by Boney.
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Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
Kragg also mentioned that in the past they used to build large amounts of shields with a stone rune and a linking rune to form nigh-unbreakable shieldwalls. He said that was a standard apprentice test, but simply doing a bit of math shows that unless back then every hold had a thousand runesmiths, those must have been built over time by the same makers.
My assumption is that the Rule of Pride gets more serious for higher level stuff, so simple things with one or two minor runes are ok to built in number, but some masterpiece with high grade stuff and a master rune is not. And id also assume that not every runesmith/lord agrees on how seriously to take the thing.
My assumption is that the Rule of Pride gets more serious for higher level stuff, so simple things with one or two minor runes are ok to built in number, but some masterpiece with high grade stuff and a master rune is not. And id also assume that not every runesmith/lord agrees on how seriously to take the thing.
If they last forever then each apprentice could make one and over the centuries and millennia you'd accumulate lots of them.
And back in the Golden Age perhaps there were a thousand runesmiths in a hold, who knows?
I take the Rule of Pride as one of those oddities that reminds us that dwaves aren't humans and don't think like humans, and that even the least runes aren't just tools to accomplish a job but sacred mysteries grudgingly revealed to an undeserving world.
[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
Since the other plan does not seem to have as much traction I'm just going to vote against the boondoggle that is reverse engineering. People are not going to be impressed by us slapping a storage only the Grey Lords can hope to make just because Mathilde promises and crosses her heart that people will learn.
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
Since the other plan does not seem to have as much traction I'm just going to vote against the boondoggle that is reverse engineering. People are not going to be impressed by us slapping a storage only the Grey Lords can hope to make just because Mathilde promises and crosses her heart that people will learn.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Nice, so no risk of peasants trying to steal it.
I doubt he could do so dozens of times.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan Keep It Simple
Can someone walk me through the logic of voting for reverse engineering? I feel like it'd be a blisteringly slow deployment in exchange for maybe eventually getting to be something that's still pretty rare.
Also, given all the talk on bottlenecks regarding the capstone, I have to wonder whether it'd be worth it to get a supply of titan-metal from the ogres.
[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan Keep It Simple
Can someone walk me through the logic of voting for reverse engineering? I feel like it'd be a blisteringly slow deployment in exchange for maybe eventually getting to be something that's still pretty rare.
Also, given all the talk on bottlenecks regarding the capstone, I have to wonder whether it'd be worth it to get a supply of titan-metal from the ogres.
My interpretation of the rule of pride is that it is a safety tool.
Dwarves are very good at finding flaws. Obsessively so. A runesmith who has just struck a rune is likely to look at it and see something wrong with it.
And it would be very tempting to try again. But that second attempt would also have a flaw in it, and now a third attempt has to be made.
Alaric the Mad pretty much killed himself doing this, attempting to perfect this one rune over and over and over again (... although the warpstone didn't help).
So the Rule of Pride is a commandment to runesmiths that they need to take pride in their work, no matter what flaws it has, or how shoddy it is. They need to own it. Rather than trying to repeat the same rune over and over again, they should instead let go of it, and move onto a new project.
And that's why a runesmith would never repeat themselves, because they would invariably compare the old version to the new version, and risk having some sort of obsession sink in.
Obviously exceptions exist for sets, and for practicing and learning runes, but ultimately, the Rule of Pride exists to protect runesmiths from their own obsessive perfectionism.
At least, that's the explanation that makes the most sense to me.
Dwarves are very good at finding flaws. Obsessively so. A runesmith who has just struck a rune is likely to look at it and see something wrong with it.
And it would be very tempting to try again. But that second attempt would also have a flaw in it, and now a third attempt has to be made.
Alaric the Mad pretty much killed himself doing this, attempting to perfect this one rune over and over and over again (... although the warpstone didn't help).
So the Rule of Pride is a commandment to runesmiths that they need to take pride in their work, no matter what flaws it has, or how shoddy it is. They need to own it. Rather than trying to repeat the same rune over and over again, they should instead let go of it, and move onto a new project.
And that's why a runesmith would never repeat themselves, because they would invariably compare the old version to the new version, and risk having some sort of obsession sink in.
Obviously exceptions exist for sets, and for practicing and learning runes, but ultimately, the Rule of Pride exists to protect runesmiths from their own obsessive perfectionism.
At least, that's the explanation that makes the most sense to me.
The thing is runesmiths are not in any way psychologically different from other dwarfs. If they were in danger of that engineers should have long since worn their fingers to the bone trying to make the Perfect Grudge Thrower, or a brewer to brew the Perfect Barrel of Beer. Traditions can just be about percection of sanctity and overall a net negative to the people who hold them and this one in particular was made worse by trauma we know that much so I do not expect it to have a good reason.
I think this depends on how she sells it. The leaders of the Colleges may be much keener if she internally presents it as a Trojan Horse to give them an opportunity to pirate the principles of advanced elven enchanting.
They may also prefer to commit some of the archmages of Laurelorn to do this for a while rather than working on things that are less good for the Empire.
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I'm sure those principles will be worth something to someone eventually, the thing is at the moment we are trying to get more help with our project. I'd rather stay focused on the goal than attempt to do a touch of industrial espionage at the last moment.
Maybe the engineers and brewers were taught different rules or techniques for managing obsession—they are descended from different Ancestor Gods than the Runesmiths, after all.
Or maybe there's something about the nature of runes that self selects for perfectionism.
We wouldn't know that, because it's all guild secrets. I was just putting forth an idea that made sense to me.
- Location
- Alaska
[X] Plan: Repairing The Network First
So the project can get a better idea of how the original waystones were put together before they start adding new designs or simplifying parts of it for the cheap version.
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
So the project can get a better idea of how the original waystones were put together before they start adding new designs or simplifying parts of it for the cheap version.
[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
The other people we want to encourage to help might also welcome the opportunity to closely examine a series of iterations of advanced elven enchanting being incrementally refined.
Appealing to other people's selfish motivations as well as their more pro-social ones also encourages them to get involved.
If you're the Fey Enchantress or a Lord Magister of an uninvolved College the chance to research elven enchanting as well as the material benefits of having Waystones may well be what encourages you to get involved personally rather than just supporting it more abstractly.
Not only because it's something for them to gain, but because it's an appeal to their ego because it's a hanging problem that their personal assistance might be key in solving. It justifies why someone of their stature is needed.
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