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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
Ah... if anything it is worse for them than it is for everyone else since it encourages them to go more insane and/or get more mutations, but they are delusional or ignorant of those consequences.
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Their magic is stronger, everyone else's magic isn't any stronger but still more uncontrollable and corruptive.

Is what I was referring to.
 
I get that were probably not going to build a spirit dependant waystome anytime soon as it would require most likely constant maintenance in fulfilling whatever conditions a spirit requires to have it fulfill it's part but i'm thinking we should do so eventually as the colleges if they wish to try to do so in the future won't have Baba Nied's, a hag witch older then kislev to help assemble the part so any mages of the colleges in the future who want to try their hand in spirit haggling can get the best resulting waystone if they decide spirit waystone is the way to go.

Spirit waystones can prove to be more defensible perhaps of theirs a guardian spirit protecting it against whatever foes it may come across and varying intelligence means they can perhaps be co - opted to certain projects me thinks.

Also what the fuck are the ice witches doing, I get they sent the youngest and thus shittest of their kind in terms of institutional knowledge of the ice witches to contribute to waystone crafting but i would of expected at least one component from them by now since their such an ancient institution. It really does feel like their just riding on our success and contributing nothing and stealing secrets from all the mage order's in the waystone project. Even if her being the youngest mean's she's the most open I feel getting the ice witches just hasn't been worth the favour we spent from Boris.
 
[X] Plan: Mass leyline
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
-[X] [RUNE] Carved
-[X] [STORAGE] Expensive Material
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
 
Raydom said:
Spirit waystones can prove to be more defensible perhaps of theirs a guardian spirit protecting it against whatever foes it may come across and varying intelligence means they can perhaps be co - opted to certain projects me thinks.
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I don't think the river spirit will be particularly protective of the waystone, that's not what the option is about. It's them moving the dhar for us.
Any protection would be another, completely different part.
 
[X] Plan Simple and Functional

Although I'm unsure requiring dwarfern runesmithing for the materials basis used for storage is that Simple, it's definitely Functional.

[X] Plan Keep It Simple
 
Mopman43 said:
Necromancers like corrupting Waystones because it turns the surrounding area Dhar-ish, which is great for them.
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Thank you, my immediate reaction after reading Boney's post was "hunh, if Dhar is so easy to get, why are necromancers and Chaos sorcerers known for fucking with Waystones to turn them into fonts of Dhar?"

I'm going to add @The Phoenixian's plans to my approval votes (and my library of plans); I don't actually think it's a politically great idea for us to not make use of the leyline method after we just negotiated with Ulthuan for it instead of, just for instance, enough riches to make even the dwarves sit up and take notice, but I do really like the notion of a relatively cheap and easy model for mass deployment in frontier regions, and I think we should definitely eventually make something like it, if not necessarily right now.

[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model (Collegiate Foundation Edition)
 
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Tobtorp said:
I don't think the river spirit will be particularly protective of the waystone, that's not what the option is about. It's them moving the dhar for us.
Any protection would be another, completely different part.
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On the other hand, if you're going to the effort of establishing negotiations with them, you can also see what the price is for that without much extra effort. In the Empire, where they may have worshippers they may value living on their banks the river gods may be willing to pass a message about interference with a riverine Waystones via a portent sent to one of their priests for a relatively cheap price.
 
[x] Plan Minimum Viable Product (expensive storage)
-[x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[x] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[x] [STORAGE] Expensive Material
-[x] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[x] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)
-[x] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[x] Plan Minimum Viable Product (cheap storage)
-[x] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[x] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[x] [STORAGE] Cheap Material
-[x] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[x] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)
-[x] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
 
picklepikkl said:
Thank you, my immediate reaction after reading Boney's post was "hunh, if Dhar is so easy to get, why are necromancers and Chaos sorcerers known for fucking with Waystones to turn them into fonts of Dhar?"

I'm going to add @The Phoenixian's plans to my approval votes (and my library of plans); I don't actually think it's a politically great idea for us to not make use of the leyline method after we just negotiated with Ulthuan for it instead of, just for instance, enough riches to make even the dwarves sit up and take notice, but I do really like the notion of a relatively cheap and easy model for mass deployment in frontier regions, and I think we should definitely eventually make something like it, if not necessarily right now.

[X] Plan Building A Better Future
[X] Plan Spend Money Not Effort
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan: The FEMA Model
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
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Yeah, part of the thinking with both of these, but the FEMA model especially, was that it would be useful to everyone, including Ulthuan in general and Yvresse in specific. "Oh, you want a tool you can add to your arsenal for dealing with connectivity problems? Here's one."

Everybody has that one problem spot right next to a river that could use something like it. Mordheium, Praag, Yvresse, the list goes on. So here's a tool for exactly that kind of situation.
 
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Just a thought on the plans that specify:

-[] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)

While having it made by an elf may help, could there still be political blowback of using a College enchantment deliberately designed to make Dhar, even if construction is outsourced?
 
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Wanted to point out, House Tindomiel has right-of-first-refusal on Waystone construction, so any component that is possible for them to make is probably going to see them at least try to keep up with demand on.
 
Thoughts on a design predicated on using the existing network:

Capstone: Go Runic Inductor. We'll need quantity, and both the college and stone flower versions are impractical to produce en masse. Extra dhar isn't all that relevant, waystones are literally designed to handle the stuff.

Rune: Dwarven Runesmith. Reliable as stone.

Storage: Reverse-Engineered. We're in this for the long game.

Foundation: Grey Lord. The college will eventually fall victim to politics and/or an idiot witch hunter. Clockwork requires winding, and someone, somewhen, WILL fuck this up at the worst possible time.

Transmission: Leyline. Obvious.

[X] Plan: Dwarven Durability, Elven Surety, Human Cheapness
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[X] Plan Simple and Functional

Edit: Nevermind, I guess it has been twenty-four hours.

@Boney, do the enchanted and runed storage options involve expensive materials, or just expensive labour? If the former, what option would best fit the description of "Not quite valuable enough to be worth the effort of dismantling/moving a giant piece of rock to steal the materials"?
 
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Tasoli said:
I think that is neat method if we want to deploy waystones to Badlands but unneceserry expanse for the use in the Empire.

Not only the number of wizards that Collages can spare is likely to be less than Archmages IT also needs 8 times the work to make single piece. Meaning it will probably come about the same numbers ready for deployement even with more people working on it.
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Alratan said:
There are several factors we don't know. Relatively few human wizards are Enchanters ableto make moderate complexity enchantments, but making simple enchantment may be a skill that all High Mages* learn over the centuries. There may be more human wizards than High Mages, but there could well be fewer available sufficently competent Enchanters in the College with the fewest of them than the Archmages that between them Ulthuan and Lauelorn can make available.
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Given that Archmages take centuries to train, I doubt there's less of them than Collegiate wizards that can enchant. And it's not just College wizards who can make the Fascis, but also regular elven wizards and the Archmages, while the flower allows only one of those groups to participate.

Alratan said:
* Note as well that the Stone Flower doesn't require an archamage, it requires a caster capable of High Magic. All Archmages may know High magic, but there could well be quite a few elven wizards capable of very basic High Magic who aren't (yet) good enough to qualift as archmages.
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Isn't an Archmage by definition someone who can cast High Magic?
 
Looking at the original golden age design, it seems that dwarven runes weren't used anywhere, even though dwarven runesmith were. That makes me wonder why?

We have the option for Runic storage. Do we have a potential Rule of Pride issue here?

A runesmith can't inscribe the same rune array twice. Is it possible that with the number of Waystones we'd need we could run out of rune smiths that know the correct runes and are willing to inscribe them on some novel device that probably incorporates elven derived magic?

I mentioned before that runesmiths are generally very conservative about inscribing even well known runes in novel contexts. Could this be a problem here, given how the Rule of Pride seriously compound the issue, as even runesmiths radical or motivated enough to do so may only do so once for a given rune array.

And even if they know multiple different rune arrays to store magical energy, is the reukt similar enough that we can just plug and play a different storage array in without more actions to reintegrate them with the other components?
 
Alratan said:
Looking at the original golden age design, it seems that dwarven runes weren't used anywhere, even though dwarven runesmith were. That makes me wonder why?

We have the option for Runic storage. Do we have a potential Rule of Pride issue here?

A runesmith can't inscribe the same rune array twice. Is it possible that with the number of Waystones we'd need we could run out of rune smiths that know the correct runes and are willing to inscribe them on some novel device that probably incorporates elven derived magic?

I mentioned before that runesmiths are generally very conservative about inscribing even well known runes in novel contexts. Could this be a problem here, given how the Rule of Pride seriously compound the issue, as even runesmiths radical or motivated enough to do so may only do so once for a given rune array.

And even if they know multiple different rune arrays to store magical energy, is the reukt similar enough that we can just plug and play a different storage array in without more actions to reintegrate them with the other components?
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I mean it is not something Mathilde or Thorek mentioned and this is something they could judge so I'm going to go with no, it is probably not an issue given the scale they will be needed on.
 
K von Carstein said:
Given that Archmages take centuries to train, I doubt there's less of them than Collegiate wizards that can enchant. And it's not just College wizards who can make the Fascis, but also regular elven wizards and the Archmages, while the flower allows only one of those groups to participate.


Isn't an Archmage by definition someone who can cast High Magic?
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I'm not sure, but Boney's option list suggests note reverse engineered storage requires Archmages while the Stone Flower just requires High Magic suggests they're different.

I think Realms of Sorcery EE says that elves can start learning high magic after they reach acceptable mastery of their second wind, each of which I think takes about a human lifetime.

That suggests that not all elves that can cast a bit of high magic qualify as archmages.
 
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I'm pretty sure it has come up previously.
But i think the Rule of Pride has to be more of a guideline to avoid Runesmiths from just mass producing single items and stop training and advancing.
So somethng like waystones would probably get past it, as long as the runesmith in question kept doing other things as well.
Depending on how easy they are to make, you might see senior apprentices asked to make like half a dozen or so waystone parts to show they can do it reliably.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean it is not something Mathilde or Thorek mentioned and this is something they could judge so I'm going to go with no, it is probably not an issue given the scale they will be needed on.
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Part of the reason I bring it up is that I thought having runesmiths use their secret techniques to carve a non-dwarven rune was a neat way for Boney to solve the issue of how the Golden Age dwarves could contribute to the Waystone Network without running into the Rule of Pride.

Valmond said:
I'm pretty sure it has come up previously.
But i think the Rule of Pride has to be more of a guideline to avoid Runesmiths from just mass producing single items and stop training and advancing.
So somethng like waystones would probably get past it, as long as the runesmith in question kept doing other things as well.
Depending on how easy they are to make, you might see senior apprentices asked to make like half a dozen or so waystone parts to show they can do it reliably.
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When asked about making copies of runic items before, Boney said:
Boney said:
No. There's some flexibility in the Rule of Pride if they're making a set, but a Runesmith won't outright duplicate something they've already made.
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Perhaps the 'making a set' exception comes in?
 
Alratan said:
Looking at the original golden age design, it seems that dwarven runes weren't used anywhere, even though dwarven runesmith were. That makes me wonder why?
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If all the Dwarves added to Waystones was having Runesmiths carve the one rune on it, it must have been a very significant improvement. We know that the Karaz Ankor gained a lot of concessions from Ulthuan for their assistance, as evident in them having their own separate network.
 
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