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I think you are rather overestimating the tolerance for magical shit (TM) that the average human diplomat is willing to deal with. Basically from the cradle people in this setting are taught that is you see anything weird you run, not walk, to the nearest priest and make it their problem. Peasants in the back an beyond might substitute hedge mage and nobles wizard, but the principle is the same, magic is scary as are those who wield it, nevermind embody it like spirits.

That's why it's important that in the Empire the important rivers have gods, so the diplomat can go and talk to their cult, and the cult's priest goes to their god.

It's only in exceptional cases where you need people to talk directly to a strange spirit, and that's where adventurers specialists come in. Those specialists don't have to be wizards with a rare combination of capabilities, they could be priests from a diplomatic cult, like Verena, who historically has a record of writing the holy texts of other cults, or regular Forestborn from Laurelorn with experience of spirits taking a detour from their tourism of mundanity.

It's also the big disadvantage, because it gives the priests more influence.

The Sigmarites were front and center in the kill-squad last time the Colleges were outlawed.
Some wizards are old enough to remember that, most others got taught by one of those.

Having the Emperor/Elector Counts get the Cults involved with something valuable to do in the deployment of the Waystones and so inside the tent rather than criticising from outside may be valuable on its own.

And you probably wouldn't go with the Sigmarities, more likely you'd go with the Cult of Verena or Shallya (Waystones as preventative medicine), etc.

And priests of the major cult aren't required, they're one option amongst many for talking to the cults of the river gods.

Fundamentally, negotiating with the cults of the river gods doesn't need to be our problem. Keeping those gods/spirits content is something the leadership of the provinces their rivers flow through already need to do to avoid boats on them losing the ability to float. Managing the relationship with those cults should be part of business as usual for them, just as it would be for all the local influential cults, not something Mathilde needs to invent. We should just be able to go to an Elector Count who goes to their piety advisor who goes to the relevant high priest.
 
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It's also the big disadvantage, because it gives the priests more influence.

The Sigmarites were front and center in the kill-squad last time the Colleges were outlawed.
Some wizards are old enough to remember that, most others got taught by one of those.

To be fair the Sigmarites are more likely to try to brain the river spirit with a big hammer by splashing it around in the water all day than talk to it, they are not the most diplomatic. It would be the cult of Taal and Rheya who would get the most out of this
 
There's a part of me that hopes we're not just going to make a waystone every turn for the next few turns. It's easy to see how people could argue it as a "mandatory" action, but I worry it would just be a repeat of this action, and as such less interesting to read.

I think we should vote as if this was the only waystone we're going to make. If we do decide to make more waystones in the future, that's fine, but I don't want us to feel like we're "locked in" to making more because we voted under the assumption that we will make a second and a third waystone design eventually. Let's not commit ourselves to having to make more waystones in the near future, because we made one with a too narrow scope the first time round.
I strongly disagree with this. We're going to make more than one Waystone variant - hell, this very turn people were debating taking this action twice, so we could make two!

Making a "generalist" Waystone that doesn't excel in any particular role is, I strongly suspect, just going to be an extra AP spent in the end, as we then go on to make specific variants.
 
This kind of feels like an argument to close off the Project. I mean if we are not going to make more stones there really isn't much else to do within its scope that isn't organization and logistics work of the roll-out which hardly needs someone with Mathilde's skills. That's fine in principle if this is what people want to vote for I'm just saying continuing with the project resolved not to make any more stones seems odd.

I strongly disagree with this. We're going to make more than one Waystone variant - hell, this very turn people were debating taking this action twice, so we could make two!

Making a "generalist" Waystone that doesn't excel in any particular role is, I strongly suspect, just going to be an extra AP spent in the end, as we then go on to make specific variants.

I should clarify that I am not opposed to creating more waystone designs in the future, I just don't want us voting in a way that results in a mandatory waystone action next turn, because the waystone we have is too narrow.

If we build an generalist waystone this turn, and in the future we decide we need a river only waystone, or a cheap as chips waystone, or a dwarf only waystone, that's fine, but if we commit to a specialist waystone this turn, that means we have to create it's opposite next turn simply to get the coverage a generalist waystone could potentially get us.

Start with a versatile waystone now that covers 80% of needs, and build for specific use cases later if we need them for the other 20%, rather than try to fulfil every use case one at a time, with each design only accounting for 30% of the needs.
 
I strongly disagree with this. We're going to make more than one Waystone variant - hell, this very turn people were debating taking this action twice, so we could make two!

Making a "generalist" Waystone that doesn't excel in any particular role is, I strongly suspect, just going to be an extra AP spent in the end, as we then go on to make specific variants.
I'd want two variants in total.

One leyline only for extending the network where we still have the option and one hybrid for high-risk areas near rivers. Like parts of Kislev and Sylvania.

So they'll have a fallback.
 
I should clarify that I am not opposed to creating more waystone designs in the future, I just don't want us voting in a way that results in a mandatory waystone action next turn, because the waystone we have is too narrow.

If we build an generalist waystone this turn, and in the future we decide we need a river only waystone, or a cheap as chips waystone, or a dwarf only waystone, that's fine, but if we commit to a specialist waystone this turn, that means we have to create it's opposite next turn simply to get the coverage a generalist waystone could potentially get us.

Start with a versatile waystone now that covers 80% of needs, and build for specific use cases later if we need them for the other 20%, rather than try to fulfil every use case one at a time, with each design only accounting for 30% of the needs.
But it'll do that 80% worse than any of the others will.

It's going to be years before any "niche" is fully covered - Boney estimated the Empire needed 1000-2000 Waystones built to be fully covered, and I'll be shocked if we break 100 a year. We can make a specialised Waystone and not make any more for several turns - though I doubt we will - and not run into issues.
 
But it'll do that 80% worse than any of the others will.

It's going to be years before any "niche" is fully covered - Boney estimated the Empire needed 1000-2000 Waystones built to be fully covered, and I'll be shocked if we break 100 a year. We can make a specialised Waystone and not make any more for several turns - though I doubt we will - and not run into issues.
Did Boney say Waystones, or did he say tributaries?
 
Going to vote for some of the Waystone plans that appeal to me on Pickle's list.

Derpmind's plans (introduced here and here) for dual transmission waystones:
[X] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Building A Moderately Expensive Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] (Moderate) Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Building A Relatively Cheap Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] (Cheap) Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

A similar waystone without the dual transmission, just leylines:
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

A cheap but high maintenance waystone that can be placed along rivers to quickly improve the places people actually live:
[X] Plan The Hinterlander
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Carved
-[X] [STORAGE] None
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
 
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[ ] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

Flagship products, good for critical areas and adding redundancy as well as hype generation. I slightly prefer my tweak on the original proposal by switching in reverse engineering, but either works.

[X] Plan: Repairing The Network First
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

Still a high quality product, but more broadly producible.

Generally long term I think we want something like one of first two options for certain specific key points, and the third option for general deployment.

[X] Plan Simple and Functional
 
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[X] Plan: Mass leyline
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[X] Plan: All-Stars
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)

[X] Plan: All-Stars, Reverse-engineered storage
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)

[X] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
 
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

This is a plan to make the best Waystone design we can manage. Something surpassing the original is a huge political coup, and would be extremely useful too. This is a design best suitable for the worst, most Dhar-blasted hellscapes, and we have a perfect first candidate: Sylvania. It's got lots of rivers, it needs durable sturdy designs, and it'll be the most visibly impacted by new Waystones.

P.S. Regardless of this plan, I believe we're going to need multiple Waystone designs no matter what. If only because we'll need something designed to interface with the Kislev and Karaz Ankor networks.

[] Plan Building A Better Future (With reverse engineering)
[X] Plan Near-Original+
[X] Plan Better Than The Golden Age (Flower Cap)
 
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Simple and Functional
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[X] Plan Political success, moderate cost
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[] Plan: All-Stars
-[] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)
 
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[X] Plan Near-Original+
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
--[X] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)

I also thought it might be worth putting together a table showing the options and what I think of the potential additional advantages and disadvantages beyond cost and difficulty.

FunctionNameRequiresDifficultyCostAdvantagesDisadvantages
CapstoneStone FlowerHigh MagicSimpleNegligible
  • High Magic is rare, only around 20 potentials who may choose to work on it in Laurelorn
CapstoneCollegiate FascisWind Based WizardModerateLow
  • Requires Connection to Waystone network
CapstoneRunic InductorRunesmithSimpleNegligible
  • Produces more Dhar than other options
  • May be dangerous if stolen by hostile forces
RuneDwarvenDwarven RunesmithSimpleLow
RuneWizardMagic userSimpleLow
RuneCarvedMasonTrivialNegligible
Storage[Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] MaterialNoneTrivialLow/moderate/high
  • Makes Waystone loot pinata
Storage[Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] EnchantedWind-based wizardSimpleLow/moderate/high
Storage[Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] RunedRunesmithSimpleLow/moderate/high
  • Completely unknown how many runesmiths will be capable and willing to carve dwarven runes on Waystones
StorageReverse-engineeredVon Tarnus or an Elven ArchmageVeryLow
  • Difficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers
  • May allow research into elven enchanting techniques
StorageNonen/an/an/a
  • Incompatible with leyline transmission
FoundationGrey LordWind-based WizardModerateLow
FoundationClockworkEngineer or ClockmakerModerateLow
  • Fragile?
  • Requires maintenance
FoundationCollegiateLight WizardSimpleLow
  • Politically problematic as uses College designed enchantment to make Dhar, even if made by someone else
Transmission (Both)n/an/aVeryModerate
  • Significantly increase robustness of network topology, making blockages of sections of network with riverine access downstream less likely/problematic
Transmission (Waystone)LeylineA speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua PraestantiaSimpleTrivial
  • Less useful alone in areas where Waystone network heavily damaged
Transmission (Riverine)HedgewiseHedgewiseSimpleTrivial
  • If done on its own reduces difficult and cost of Foundation
  • Requires weekly maintenance requiring perishable ingredient
  • May require digging a tunnel beneath riverbed to install
  • Will produce flow of Dhar in ground beneath riverbed that hostiles may be able to tap into
Transmission (Riverine)JadeJade Wizard or DruidModerateLow
  • If done on its own reduces difficult and cost of Foundation
  • May require digging a tunnel beneath riverbed to install
  • Will produce flow of Dhar in ground beneath riverbed that hostiles may be able to tap into
Transmission (Riverine)SpiritNegotiation with the river's spirit??
  • If done on its own reduces difficult and cost of Foundation
  • May result in simpler Waystone design than other riverine option as doesn't need 'physical' correspondence enchantment included
  • Dhar teleported from source to destination so does not pass through ground
  • Extra work and difficulty probably doesn't need to be done by wizards, allowing saving that scarce resource
  • Baba Niedzwenka thinks costs easy for states to meet
  • Unknown what spirits will want
 
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[X] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

This one should do for about 90% of anything we can come up wiith.
 
[X] Plan Keep It Simple
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline


[X] Plan Keep It Simple, with Material
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Material
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline


[X] Plan Simple and Functional


@picklepikkl , since Keep It Simple with more Runes is the same as Simple and Functional, I'll withdraw it to avoid confusion/split votes
 
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Looking at picklepikkl's list the only one I like is:

[X] Plan Political success, moderate cost
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Proposed by @henkalv

My reasoning is quite simple, the expert has tried this. Eltharion is the only person associated with the project who has actually tried to repair the network. He was restricted to Asur components, which mean high magic, and his conclusion is that they simply aren't fast enough.
The Stone Flower places a crippling bottleneck on production. Look at the recent WOG posts we got:

Do we have an idea of how many waystones we need for a given area? Because if the average province has like 20 waystones, that very different from it having 200 or 2000.

If we only need to make like 25 waystones for all of Sylvania then only having like 20 elves capable of making the capstone is way less of a big deal than if we need to make 2000.
Back-of-the-envelope maths say the Empire would need about four thousand total for full coverage, so about 300-400 per province. It's probably safe to assume that somewhere between half to three quarters of those are already in place.
1. How many high mages willing to enchant are there?
You might be able to scrape up 20 at a given time from Laurelorn.
The Empire alone is going to need between one and two thousand new Waystones. Add Kislev. Add Bretonnia. Add Estalia and Tilea and as much of the Border Princess as Gretel can conquer. Ballpark it as ten thousand. Ten Thousand Waystones. Just for the Old World.

And Laurelorn can scrape together 20 people capable of making Stone Flowers. The only other potential source is Ulthuan, except they have their own concerns and their own Waystones.

If we want enough progress to matter within the next few decades we are going to need the more mass-production friendly option.
 
Did Boney say Waystones, or did he say tributaries?
Waystones. And there seem to be something like roughly 20 enchanters that can do the work with no answers given how many actually they have. Thinking about it if they can creat 10 stones per year that is 200 stones per year and in 10 years Empire would be covered which is fairly reasonable timeline. We might want to create Dwarven variation to increase the output if we want that.


I also thought it might be worth putting together a table showing the options and what I think of the potential advantages and disadvantages
May I ask you to spoiler that? IT is a bit big.

[X] Plan: All-Stars
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)

[X] Plan: All-Stars, Reverse-engineered storage
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)

[X] Plan Keep It Simple
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[X] Plan Building A Better Future
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

[X] Plan Simple and Functional
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
 
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The Empire alone is going to need between one and two thousand new Waystones. Add Kislev. Add Bretonnia. Add Estalia and Tilea and as much of the Border Princess as Gretel can conquer. Ballpark it as ten thousand. Ten Thousand Waystones. Just for the Old World.
Keep in mind this is for absolutely full coverage... We really don't need full coverage in a decade... Hell as long as all population centers are protected we still did excellent...
 
[X] Plan Political success, moderate cost
[X] Plan Simple and Functional
[X] Plan Building A Better Future

Didn't catch the vote opening, thanks for the mention. Will probably end up approval voting similar plans later.
 
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[X] Plan Simple and Functional
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[X] Plan Keep It Simple
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline


[X] Plan Keep It Simple, with Material
-[X] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[X] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[X] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Material
-[X] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[X] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

EDIT: Approval Vote:

[X] Plan Building A Better Future
 
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The Stone Flower places a crippling bottleneck on production.
Facis is better how? You need 8 enchanters to do the work I doubt collages can spare even 16 of them and we don't know how many Eonir can scrape up. I don't think Fascis is that much faster than Stone Flower.

20 enchanters can create 200 stones per year and can cover Empire in 10 years.
 
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