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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Tobtorp said:
Ehh, the big problem I see is that the eonir aren't that many and have a strong dependency on their Forest for defence. If they tried attacking the rest of Nordland their Forest would stay and to every elf would come 10 to 20 man.
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So that operationally limits them to "anywhere we can still manage a quick retreat to the forest." Either the army of Nordland will still meet them in battle or quickly accepts that anywhere within X distance to the forest is elf playground. The real thing is the "attritionally we're having a hard time dealing with both human incursion AND beastmen at the same time, let's cut a deal to keep the human incursion at acceptable levels" that drove them to make the deal with Nordland is still true.

With FULL benefit of hindsight they probably would've been best off allowing human vassals rather than letting Nordland enforce things though.
 
I think it's easy to underestimate Nordland as a military power—after all, most of their force projection is tied up in the Second Fleet.

But whilst an individual state trooper might not be a match for a kithband warrior, there's a lot more humans than elves, the humans work together in tightly disciplined formations using rifle, crossbow, sword, and spear, there's various forms of artillery (probably not the more exotic stuff, but definitely cannon), they have priests and knightly orders, and at least one battle wizard—Lady Magister Arburg, future Jade Matriarch.

And if Nordland does lose on the field, they can take the navy and sail it up the river and siege Tor Lithanial directly. It wouldn't be pretty, and they'd lose a ton of ships to river spirits and Grey Lord magic, but it's a threat that splits the Eonir's attention and forces them to defend two separate fronts.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I think it's easy to underestimate Nordland as a military power—after all, most of their force projection is tied up in the Second Fleet.

But whilst an individual state trooper might not be a match for a kithband warrior, there's a lot more humans than elves, the humans work together in tightly disciplined formations using rifle, crossbow, sword, and spear, there's various forms of artillery (probably not the more exotic stuff, but definitely cannon), they have priests and knightly orders, and at least one battle wizard—Lady Magister Arburg, future Jade Matriarch.

And if Nordland does lose on the field, they can take the navy and sail it up the river and siege Tor Lithanial directly. It wouldn't be pretty, and they'd lose a ton of ships to river spirits and Grey Lord magic, but it's a threat that splits the Eonir's attention and forces them to defend two separate fronts.
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There are a lot more humans than elves, but there are also a lot of Norscan raiders. The trick to beating them with minimal losses I imagine would be to slow down reinforcements to cities under attack and then let the Norscans burn the docks and the ships for you while they loot anything not nailed to the ground, while they are at it they will probably burn down the food stores as well. It would be a bit hard for them to siege anything while starving to death.

If you do not quite have the stomach to let chaos tank for you make use of the significant magical advantage as well as being the attacker to burn down granaries yourself in late winter and early spring which is traditionally the lean season. That way all those soldiers turn from advantage to just more hungry mouths.
 
When Laurelorn first made the treaty, there was no Empire at all. So they do seem to consider Nordland fairly threatening in-of itself.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
But whilst an individual state trooper might not be a match for a kithband warrior, there's a lot more humans than elves, the humans work together in tightly disciplined formations using rifle, crossbow, sword, and spear, there's various forms of artillery (probably not the more exotic stuff, but definitely cannon), they have priests and knightly orders, and at least one battle wizard—Lady Magister Arburg, future Jade Matriarch.
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That's true if the Eonir choose to fight in the open. But on the woods, canons and knights and disciplined unites are much less effective, especially against someone who knows the woods like their pocket and has spent millennia molding it to better defend themselves. As a general rule, fighting any kind of Wood Elves in their own forest is bound to be catastrophically costly.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
And if Nordland does lose on the field, they can take the navy and sail it up the river and siege Tor Lithanial directly. It wouldn't be pretty, and they'd lose a ton of ships to river spirits and Grey Lord magic, but it's a threat that splits the Eonir's attention and forces them to defend two separate fronts.
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I doubt it would succeed. I don't think the Nordland fleet could reach Tor Lithanel before sundown, and elves can see at night. Any Aqshy mage can wreak absolutely havoc on the fleet fro the safety of the shore, and that's not counting all the other surprises the Grey Lords have inevitably cooked for such an occasion.
 
I'm talking about out of character knowledge here, but in canon Laurelorn is dying. They were losing important magic sites through attrition and the lornalim were being cut down one by one. Laurelorn was being bled of magic by a thousand cuts. It's possible that isn't being used, Boney didn't use the 4e Laurelorn exactly. In 4e, being Cityborn isn't lost by spending a day out Tor Lithanel. 4e also didn't make the Faniour half forest-spirit.

But if it is true, it heavily implies that Laurelorn is projecting strength. Their arguments for the Waystone Project boiled down to it could just be helpful for them. Where if the forest of Laurelorn is losing it's magic, that is existential for Laurelorn. That is something they need to fix. With more waystones running, they could do that. Like, feed the forest with magic or something.

Which is honestly really weird, the waystone network is collapsing and the Winds of Magic are increasing. If anything the magic should be going up and the Eonir should be concerned about Laurelorn going the way of Athel Loren. It's weird for the Tarn of Tear's output to be decreasing. But that's Warhammer for you.
 
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MrHobbit said:
I'm talking about out of character knowledge here, but in canon Laurelorn is dying. They were losing important magic sites through attrition and the lornalim were being cut down one by one. Laurelorn was being bled of magic by a thousand cuts. It's possible that isn't being used, Boney didn't use the 4e Laurelorn exactly. In 4e, being Cityborn isn't lost by spending a day out Tor Lithanel.

But if it is true, it heavily implies that Laurelorn is projecting strength. Their arguments for the Waystone Project boiled down to it could just be helpful for them. Where if the forest of Laurelorn is losing it's magic, that is existential for Laurelorn. That is something they need to fix. With more waystones running, they could do that. Like, feed the forest with magic or something.

Which is honestly really weird, the waystone network is collapsing and the Winds of Magic are increasing. If anything the magic should be going up and the Eonir should be concerned about Laurelorn going the way of Athel Loren. It's weird for the Tarn of Tear's output to be decreasing. But that's Warhammer for you.
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You have to understand Warhammer is getting on in years, at its age it's normal to have the occasional lapses of LOTR-itis going on about the vanishing of magic, the passing of the elves etc... :V
 
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I'd like to point out that I didn't say Nordland would win, just that an Eonir victory wouldn't be as quick and decisive as they boasted about, because Nordland can hit back pretty hard and do a lot of harm to Laurelorn in the process, and as such we shouldn't underestimate them.

In fact, Sarvoi said that recruiting House Tindomiel helped reassure the City Born that the Nordlander army wasn't about to start invading.

Boney said:
Even if nothing comes of it, working alongside major figures from the Empire and Kislev and the Karaz Ankor reassures those among us that think that Laurelorn might be condescended to, or that Nordland's troops might spill over into the Ward of Frost at any moment.
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MrHobbit said:
I'm talking about out of character knowledge here, but in canon Laurelorn is dying. They were losing important magic sites through attrition and the lornalim were being cut down one by one. Laurelorn was being bled of magic by a thousand cuts. It's possible that isn't being used, Boney didn't use the 4e Laurelorn exactly. In 4e, being Cityborn isn't lost by spending a day out Tor Lithanel. 4e also didn't make the Faniour half forest-spirit.
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I'm not sure I've read anything about Laurelorn running out of magic? You sure you aren't mixing them up with the Karaz Ankor? Also I don't think the lornalim really harvested usable magic in any form. Instead of being collectors, they were purely funnels to remove ambient Earthbound magic.

While Caedeth emphasized the cutting of the "dhar be gone" trees to get Mathilde on board, I'd think Laurelorn's problem was more the forrest as an aggregate being destroyed vs a specific species. As noted in the forrest date with Panoramia, the Elves don't like the forrest simply due to being innate tree huggers. Theres the salient pragmatic factor that theyve spent millenia carefully cultivating it into their primary means of defense. And no one likes their defenses getting breached.

The fact the logging humans just saw trees vs a masterpiece in biological engineering doesn't make it better.
 
Generally laurelorn stopped at the only point where they could hold, the edge of their Forest. Any further and a organized response from Nordland would cripple their numbers.
Yes they probably would cripple Northland at the same time but humans breed like bunnies compared to elves.
 
A_Somebody said:
I'm not sure I've read anything about Laurelorn running out of magic? You sure you aren't mixing them up with the Karaz Ankor? Also I don't think the lornalim really harvested usable magic in any form. Instead of being collectors, they were purely funnels to remove ambient Earthbound magic.
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I said in canon, not in Divided Loyalties. Archives of the Empire mentions that Laurelorn Forest is dying because millennia of war and incursions are wearing away at Old One artifacts, waystones, and arcane fulcrums. The destruction of those artifacts means there is less magic for the Laurelorn to sustain itself. Which is silly because waystones and arcane fulcrums are supposed to help keep magic controlled. The lornalim also help to sustain the Weave, the magic that binds the forest together, in canon.
 
Whoever it was that was asking about what Empire Religions had on the origins of Man, I found something in Tome of Salvation. Albeit something pretty minor.
On page 249, the Antler of the Blue Stag relic is said to be a part of the remains of the first animal slain by mortals, given by Taal as a sign of his blessing and protection.
Which doesnt say much, but it does mean that they believe there was an origin of man and that Taal was there for it.
 
MrHobbit said:
I'm talking about out of character knowledge here, but in canon Laurelorn is dying. They were losing important magic sites through attrition and the lornalim were being cut down one by one. Laurelorn was being bled of magic by a thousand cuts. It's possible that isn't being used, Boney didn't use the 4e Laurelorn exactly. In 4e, being Cityborn isn't lost by spending a day out Tor Lithanel. 4e also didn't make the Faniour half forest-spirit.

But if it is true, it heavily implies that Laurelorn is projecting strength. Their arguments for the Waystone Project boiled down to it could just be helpful for them. Where if the forest of Laurelorn is losing it's magic, that is existential for Laurelorn. That is something they need to fix. With more waystones running, they could do that. Like, feed the forest with magic or something.

Which is honestly really weird, the waystone network is collapsing and the Winds of Magic are increasing. If anything the magic should be going up and the Eonir should be concerned about Laurelorn going the way of Athel Loren. It's weird for the Tarn of Tear's output to be decreasing. But that's Warhammer for you.
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The vibe I've gotten from most of Boney's interpretations of the canonical 'ticking time bombs' of the Warhammer world is that generally speaking he doesn't get rid of them but does tend to nerf them semi-heavily - 'nerf' being a general term for as a rule saying 'yes it's still a problem, but there's a good reason it hasn't either destroyed the nation/world up until now and the society itself wouldn't just ignore it if it were 5 minutes to midnight'.

The balancing factor, of course, is that any problem that still exists after hundreds of years also probably has a pretty good reason why someone hasn't either fixed it or hacked the proverbial Gordian knot - usually some sort of economic, sociopolitical factor or balance of other plates they can't afford to not keep spinning.

The result of that interpretation is the world of Warhammer Fantasy feeling infinitely more grounded in this quest than pretty much any Black Library book I've ever read, at the minor expense of not having quite as many lantern-jawed heroes mowing their way through dozens to hundreds of orcs/demons/Skaven.
 
Lammen Gorthaur said:
The vibe I've gotten from most of Boney's interpretations of the canonical 'ticking time bombs' of the Warhammer world is that generally speaking he doesn't get rid of them but does tend to nerf them semi-heavily - 'nerf' being a general term for as a rule saying 'yes it's still a problem, but there's a good reason it hasn't either destroyed the nation/world up until now and the society itself wouldn't just ignore it if it were 5 minutes to midnight'.

The balancing factor, of course, is that any problem that still exists after hundreds of years also probably has a pretty good reason why someone hasn't either fixed it or hacked the proverbial Gordian knot - usually some sort of economic, sociopolitical factor or balance of other plates they can't afford to not keep spinning.
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The changes fit Divided Loyalties, and frankly I prefer it over 4e's Laurelorn. What I've read of WFRP 4e feels a lot like a theme park, something that is meant to be experienced, not lived in. Divided Loyalties feels a lot more lived in than Warhammer in general. Another example I can think of is Durthu and the notion that if he would just be happy he could use 100% of his power and save Athel Loren forever.

4e doesn't present the threat Laurelorn is facing as happening soon. It is a degradation happening over centuries. I just think that the potential failure state is weird and doesn't really fit Laurelorn as Boney has presented it. It's common across Warhammer that magic is increasing because the ways to keep it under control are failing. And yet Laurelorn is starving of magic? It's dissonant with the established facts of the setting. Though it completely matches DragonParadox's diagnosis of LOTR-itis.
 
Mopman43 said:
Hey, you don't know how lantern Mathilde's jaw is.
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*With only a sword and a grim smile, I should qualify. Gathering the greatest wizards and runelords in the Old World and using them to create a doomsday weapon to mow down an entire Waaagh is different.

The sequence during the last Slayer book where Gotrek and Felix are dancing through bloodthirsters like they're a collection of red shirts specifically comes to mind. I can believe that of Gotrek, sure, since at that point he's basically Diet Grimnir, but Felix (magic sword and peak human ability nonwithstanding) is still a vanilla human at that point.
 
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Lammen Gorthaur said:
The sequence during the last Slayer book where Gotrek and Felix are dancing through bloodthirsters like they're a collection of red shirts specifically comes to mind. I can believe that of Gotrek, sure, since at that point he's basically Diet Grimnir, but Felix (magic sword and peak human ability nonwithstanding) is still a vanilla human at that point.
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That sounds... really wacky. If it was 'just' Bloodletters I could buy it, but that sounds like a real big mistake.
 
So random thought, considering the amount of cultural significance placed on their beards. Do you think there is the equivalent of a Dwarf hairdresser/beard groomer who is one of the most respected and trusted members of the hold due to regularly handling the beards of other Dawi?
 
Sinsystems said:
So random thought, considering the amount of cultural significance placed on their beards. Do you think there is the equivalent of a Dwarf hairdresser/beard groomer who is one of the most respected and trusted members of the hold due to regularly handling the beards of other Dawi?
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I believe Boney had a post where he said that Karaz Ankor Dwarfs don't really have professional hairdressers- men's hair is usually seen to by their wives, for example.
 
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MrHobbit said:
Boney? What option would we take if we wanted to have our members sift through what their factions can offer in waystone components? Like, if we wanted Zlata to see what the Ice Witches could offer for the capstone or the foundation? Or if we eventually bring Bretonnia on and want to see if they have anything that could help?
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If anyone has anything suitable, they bring it up when the relevant part is being researched.

SaltyWaffles said:
@Boney
Given our extensive experience in combined operations of wizards and dwarves (and human forces and dwarves), dwarven culture and tactics/weapons/capabilities, and extensive knowledge on the enemies dwarves face, could we write a paper laying out the potent synergies, possibilities, and lessons learned for such combined operations going forward?

While I'm sure some lessons learned have been reported and passed along in the Karaz Ankor, those lessons learned will not have nearly as much understanding of or insight into the magical capabilities (and possibilities they represent) of wizards, and thus be unable to grasp all of the potential ways in which those possibilities can be combined with dwarven strengths/tactics to allow for possibilities without taking undue risks that dwarves abhor. Ways to use magic as tactical options without relying on them as a certainty.

Things like "Celestial prognostication to determine the location of the nearest greenskin in tunnel fighting or in scouting", or "Gold wizard Trial and Error for nailing that first volley of cannon fire when it really counts", or "Grey Wizard advanced infiltration for scouting the enemy's traps and tricks before you commit your forces", or "Magisters to now effectively counter greenskin magic without brute force when Runelords aren't available", or "effectively countering Ratling Guns and Warplightning Cannons from a distance". All things that can greatly reduce casualties, especially when Runesmiths/Runelords capable of such particular feats are not readily available (if at all), since they tend to be better suited for creation/preparation/fortification.

And for Imperial readers, there is definitely a lot to be said about the potential and benefits of combined operations with dwarven forces to get true synergy that gets better results than the sum of their parts while also reducing casualties. I don't think many Imperial generals/wizards have much experience fighting alongside dwarven forces much, especially not with the kind of variety and length Mathilde has (especially if we add in contributions from Johann, Maximillian, Panoramia, Adela, and more). When dwarves can supply way more artillery (and better quality, to say the least), while humans can supply thousands of infantry and missile units much more easily, there is definitely potential there, especially if dwarves are willing to offer coin for the human contribution.

Is something like this viable or redundant?
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Mathilde is not actually a general. She has nowhere near as much experience with large-scale combat as the average soldier, and next to no experience with commanding it compared to the average officer. She doesn't have the foundational knowledge to underpin that sort of treatise, and she doesn't have the track record to be treated as an authority on the matter.

Mopman43 said:
When Laurelorn first made the treaty, there was no Empire at all. So they do seem to consider Nordland fairly threatening in-of itself.
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There were three - the Wolf Empire, the Ottilian Empire, and the Elected Empire. Nordland would have been a member of one of them.

MrHobbit said:
I'm talking about out of character knowledge here, but in canon Laurelorn is dying. They were losing important magic sites through attrition and the lornalim were being cut down one by one. Laurelorn was being bled of magic by a thousand cuts. It's possible that isn't being used, Boney didn't use the 4e Laurelorn exactly. In 4e, being Cityborn isn't lost by spending a day out Tor Lithanel. 4e also didn't make the Faniour half forest-spirit.
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4e hadn't covered Laurelorn when Mathilde started visiting it. I've used bits and pieces that 4e subsequently added, but there's no reconciling the entirety of it with the quest.

MrHobbit said:
I said in canon, not in Divided Loyalties. Archives of the Empire mentions that Laurelorn Forest is dying because millennia of war and incursions are wearing away at Old One artifacts, waystones, and arcane fulcrums. The destruction of those artifacts means there is less magic for the Laurelorn to sustain itself. Which is silly because waystones and arcane fulcrums are supposed to help keep magic controlled. The lornalim also help to sustain the Weave, the magic that binds the forest together, in canon.
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The entire Warhammer franchise is rife with the trope of 'this ancient thing that's keeping everything from falling apart is on the edge of failing and either nobody knows about it or nobody knows how to fix it', even when it doesn't make any sense. When 40k actually followed through on all of those accumulated doomsdays it tore the galaxy in half.

Sinsystems said:
What about single men though? Or those who's wives have tragically passed away?
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Parents, brothers, comrades, boyfriends.
 
Sinsystems said:
So random thought, considering the amount of cultural significance placed on their beards. Do you think there is the equivalent of a Dwarf hairdresser/beard groomer who is one of the most respected and trusted members of the hold due to regularly handling the beards of other Dawi?
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I'd expect royalty to have a a relative that does so, though it might be rolled into a more general butler or 'in charge of the king's wardrobe' position.

I'd also expect different clans to have long standing arguments about the correct way to style and braid your beard.
 
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