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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Thank you, I'll take it.

[X] Plan Girlscouts with Eike

And since it also meets my criteria,

[X] Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope, no liminal research
 
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picklepikkl said:
in conjunction with the Windfall paper and Eike on both actions it has the three of them as a little team
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oh snap, I didn't consider that

yoink

[x] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
-[x] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[x] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[x] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[x] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[x] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[x] Attempt to create a liminal realm
--[x] COIN: The Gambler
-[x] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[x] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[x] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Grand University of Nuln)
-[x] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windfall, Windherding, Fog Bridge
-[x] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

And also:

[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
 
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal

Winnowing my vote.
 
mathymancer said:
Ok, but Boney's post also says "tell me how you'd go about it". As I understand it Boney is just saying that the exact action depends on the method we want to use, but we still need to give a method. What method are we using? Windherding, ok, but what are we Windherding? What spells/marks/masteries/whatever?

The Speculum idea got explicitly approved by Boney, I think it's best to ask Boney about this idea too.
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The quote makes it pretty clear that Boney means to differentiate between regular enchanting, Windherding, or some third method. Not getting into the nitty gritty of how Windherding itself works. I've seen no indication that we're beholden to just slapping pre-existing spells together.
 
Figured I'd make a plan that included Elfcation this turn, as I really don't want to rely on the thread prioritizing Elfcation over the numerous Waystone actions we are likely to unlock Turn 44. Seriously, we're at about as low of an ebb as we are likely to get and are still throwing 3 AP at the issue.
[X] Plan Elfcation Time!
-[X] [X] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Windfall paper, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander
-[X] COIN: The Protector.
 
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
[x] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
 
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] Waystone: Mapping (Tilea, Estalia) (Johann)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings , Windfall paper, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander
 
Gavin Prince said:
The downside of this is that we then can't use the Gambler on any of the very sensitive T43 actions (Orbs, follow-up Apparition binding, potentially a Waystone Prototype). Whatever side the Coin is in at the start of the Elfcation is the side it will be stuck in for the rest of it. And we want it on the Protector.
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There will pretty much always be sensitive actions that could use the Gambler. It's practically a given at this point. If we aren't willing to skip using it for a turn or two then we might as well forget about going in the first place.

This is what frustrates me the most about the "Elfcation after we do [Insert one or more significant tasks here]" crowd. There will always be something else important to do. Once we complete Orbs and AV, other exciting projects will emerge. If you don't think building a Waystone will unlock exciting new opportunities, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Honestly at this point I've given up hope on ever doing the Elfcation. Now the cries are "wait until we get an Overwork AP". Then it will be "we can't prioritize Elfcation over implementing the Waystones. Are you nuts?". So on and so forth until we reach the point where it's "Weber's getting on in years. Going off to fight Druchii at her age is suicidal".
 
Hunter531 said:
There will pretty much always be sensitive actions that could use the Gambler. It's practically a given at this point. If we aren't willing to skip using it for a turn or two then we might as well forget about going in the first place.

This is what frustrates me the most about the "Elfcation after we do [Insert one or more significant tasks here]" crowd. There will always be something else important to do. Once we complete Orbs and AV, other exciting projects will emerge. If you don't think building a Waystone will unlock exciting new opportunities, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Honestly at this point I've given up hope on ever doing the Elfcation. Now the cries are "wait until we get an Overwork AP". Then it will be "we can't prioritize Elfcation over implementing the Waystones. Are you nuts?". So on and so forth until we reach the point where it's "Weber's getting on in years. Going off to fight Druchii at her age is suicidal".
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I think we can reasonably infer that old age is not going to kill Mathilde. If that ever starts being a concern we can start looking into how the Golds do their ritual or start poking necromantic lore to see if we can adapt it. I'm sure Nefferata has all sorts of cool books :V

Realistically I think that by then we will have enough arcane marks that it is not a concern.
 
Why does the leading plan have us mapping Tilea and Estalia? As much as I want to eventually map the whole Old World, I'm not sure I'd call those high priority actions—I'd recommend leaving it until right before we're ready to start deploying things in those regions, and there's a queue of nations before we get round to them.

Just seems to be a weird thing that's riding to the top right now.

Hunter531 said:
This is what frustrates me the most about the "Elfcation after we do [Insert one or more significant tasks here]" crowd. There will always be something else important to do. Once we complete Orbs and AV, other exciting projects will emerge. If you don't think building a Waystone will unlock exciting new opportunities, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
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If it's any consolation, I'm pretty commited to doing the elfcation on the next overwork turn (T44), mainly because we'll be publishing our AV research, the Morbs, and whatever the results of our apparition binding are, right before skedaddling off to Ulthuan for three months before anyone can pin us down to ask us any difficult questions like "how did you do this" or "is this even legal".

Which is both hilarious and on-brand for Mathilde.

We might even get a prototype waystone going as well, for added impact!
 
I really hope one of the many plans with Windherder wins. Everytime it comes up there's always the critic the problem that whatever is it we create it won't be useful, now we have multiple plans with 2 different useful items, either for ourselves or for Eike, and a Servirscope which the thread have been wanting to build since forever.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
It's a thesis I agree with - and to which I'd add that Red Riders by comparison don't do well in the situations where Mathilde has had the most trouble, namely those where her mobility is shut down. Cavalry can't do shit if it's already in the tarpit.

Using the apparition as a trump card isn't the only utility of having one of course, but nobody knows ulgu users can even do that yet, so it has the potential to be especially potent as one... and in the next adventure we've got eyes on, we'll be working with armies so while red riders provides Mathilde with new capabilities in a vaccuum, it'll just be more swords on horses to the already extant forces we're working with... constrasted with an anti-dhar apparition pointed at dhar specialists.

Others have pointed out that many of the effects of a Whispering Darkness are things our existing spells can do - but it seems more lame than Boney would put up with for those things to not stack, and being that it's an apparition rather than a spell it can do the business while we're doing something else at the same time on top. Combined with our build synergies, I feel it's a clear pick for our next adventure which is why I think we should pick it for our first apparition.
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Red Riders are great in a situation where Mathilde's mobility would be shut down, as an armoured cavalryman can charge into the fray and distract and tie up the enemy so Mathilde can do a runner using them as a meat shield, or physically extract her and carry her away.

All the spells we know using Apparitions are basically calling up not-daemons to kill things with. None of them try to exploit esoteric synergies with things their Winds can already do very well.

Apparitions are designed to allow us to do things we couldn't do with our Wind alone, things that need a thinking mind behind them. Using them for spells we can do anyway seems like we'd just be overcomplicating matters, adding an unnecessary step that we could do without, which seems like a bad thing to do with magic.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Why does the leading plan have us mapping Tilea and Estalia? As much as I want to eventually map the whole Old World, I'm not sure I'd call those high priority actions—I'd recommend leaving it until right before we're ready to start deploying things in those regions, and there's a queue of nations before we get round to them.
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As far as I know the only arguments I have seen are completionism, a chance for Mathilde to see Tilea and Estalia and get to know if the Skaven are using the Waystones for Skavenblight.

Personally I find the last reason the weakest because it doesn't matter if we know or not, we are not going to touch it because it could risk a massive Skaven invasion (probably mandated by the Hornet Rat if they're using it to power themselves) to see who has stolen their power. And I can't see the thread going for it.
 
The case for putting the Gambler on the Liminal Realm

Hello, friends. Very often, it happens that we as a thread have to do a risk/reward assessment. And very often, it seems, it is among the biggest points of controversy to see to which action should get Ranald's attention as the Gambler, so as to mitigate those risks, or try to increase rewards.

It seems to me here that the current winning position (Plan Roadmap to Success) takes the position that putting the Gambler on the Rider in Red action allows us to enhance its rewards meaningfully - ensuring the capturing process goes smoothly and that the binding holds for a while, which would help in case we need to put off the studying-and-binding process for later. I'm pretty sure someone even argued it's possible we could catch more than one Rider, which Boney confirmed at one point as a possibility if we get (un)lucky.

I think the position that putting the Gambler on the Rider in Red action to mitigate risk, however, is a bit overkill - we can assume that Mathilde will make the best preparations she can, and that she is going in with a plan alongside Johann, who is well-suited to this. Both him and us know the barest of Battle Magic, and both of us have weapons that can strike the immaterial.

Even if it happens to be that Riders in Red are actually beefier than we expect, I wouldn't actually worry about failure. I would like to note that the entire line of questioning - capturing an Apparition, studying it, and then binding it to your soul - has a pretty solid basis in the form of the Golds binding their Hounds, and the Ambers and Jades probably doing similarly with other Apparitions.

However, the same could not be said of the Liminal Realm action. We're going to be embarking on something the Colleges don't know anything about or could even try, which has previously due to bad luck had bad consequences, we're going to be doing it alone, and to top it off we're going to be doing it outside our lab. It's a gamble. Maybe even a capital-G Gamble. So in the worst case scenario that we fail again and something from the other side comes knocking, I would like Ranald to appear behind the knocker with a comically large bat.

As the author of the big Apparition FAQ post and supporter of binding shadowy Nazguls, it is my deep suggestion to not put the Gambler on the Rider in Red, and to put it on the Liminal Realm.

Thank you for coming to my WEB Talk. Please consider approval voting Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal, or Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald. Every little bit helps.
 
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Alratan said:
Red Riders are great in a situation where Mathilde's mobility would be shut down, as an armoured cavalryman can charge into the fray and distract and tie up the enemy so Mathilde can do a runner using them as a meat shield, or physically extract her and carry her away.
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Mathilde is significantly more mobile than a Red Rider. Her shadowsteed is probably faster, and besides she can teleport. I can't see many situations where Mathilde is stuck in a melee and the Red Rider isn't also stuck, and has the freedom to charge whatever she's fighting.
 
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