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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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FallenPears said:
I've been trying to think up a way to exploit the same resonance that Elementalism is based on in a Wind paradigm, though in the end it just keeps coming back to Earthbound magic resonating with Winds more than anything else, so for a Wind Wizard to exploit the resonance it must be based on that. Which is kind of fortunate if possible because they are already used to thinking in the terms of those Winds, if it works.

As far as I can tell it mainly depends on what happens when Earthbound magic makes actual contact with Winds. Do we know this?

Looking at the very basics:



So an Ulgu equivalent would be joining Earthbound magic with Ulgu, I'm imagining lacing one with the other, then separating the two (or just proceeding with the mix if that's not possible) such that you hopefully have Earthbound magic with an especially powerful Ulgu resonance beyond just what our presence would cause, and as such a shadow, mist, confusion etc resonance... if the Earthbound magic does not just revert to more Ulgu, or even worse, produce Dhar. If either of those two happen, we get a dead end.

At the very least, whether this works should be relatively easy to test, if Mathilde doesn't know the answer just off the top of her head.

And though I really expect either more Ulgu or Dhar, I love chickens and eggs so some thoughts below:

If we can create Ulgu resonant Earthbound magic, then we might have some possibilities going forward. Perhaps for example we could mimic the elemental creation method; gather some mists, filling it with Ulgu resonant Earthbound magic, then... well I don't know if could ourselves safely directly use Ulgu resonant Earthbound on the mist to create a shadowy misty sort of elemental, but if not we could still probably exploit the resonance somehow with normal Ulgu magic, as described above 'offloading some of the magical burden to energies already present within the manipulated element'. That seems potentially very useful if niche.

It would probably still be unstable to interference from other Winds, but maybe if we keep a good amount of Ulgu in such a construct the Earthbound magic supporting it will react more to the closer Ulgu than external Winds, preventing it from falling apart so easily? We're reaching dangerous levels of chicken counting here.

It could also make 'discount Ulgu' aka anything you could do with this you could do better with normal Ulgu. But based on 'The upside is that this Earthbound magic can be shaped into just about any theoretical framework the caster can imagine' I hope it might be more useful than that.
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If there was a scenario where there was only a little bit of Ulgu and a lot of Earthbound magic, you might be able to use something based of Elementalist techniques to eke a little bit of extra oomph out of the Ulgu you do have. But on every battlefield the Colleges have ever fought on, you can just reach out and grab more Ulgu instead. The Elementalists are mastering every little trick of rowing when the Colleges have an outboard motor and the ocean is made of diesel.

cog-nito said:
@Boney

If Mathilde actually managed to kill Malekith while on Elfcation somehow, as has been semi frequently joked about, on a scale of 1 to 10, how smug would Teclis be about his creation of the colleges paying off in such a big way?
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While this is a fun idea, pinging the QM should be reserved for more substantial and directly relevant questions. When someone @s me I get a popup on my computer, and if I can I drop what I'm doing to turn my attention to the thread.
 
So as to not ping the QM
The Elementalists are mastering every little trick of rowing when the Colleges have an outboard motor and the ocean is made of diesel.

Elementalism currently feels like it would be of use primarily to those who might be perpetual, or at least not the strongest mages.
 
Mopman43 said:
The Cathayan dragons evidently don't follow the Old World trend of aligning with a single wind. Closer to how the Ulthuan dragons are.
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Okay, but they... also don't use high magic? In fact, they don't seem to use magic at all (at least in the casting sense), though they are profoundly powerful in other ways.
The point is, it's not immediately obvious that Dragon = High Magic, and in fact they seem to be quite susceptible to being wind-locked.
 
Mopman43 said:
The Cathayan dragons evidently don't follow the Old World trend of aligning with a single wind. Closer to how the Ulthuan dragons are.
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I don't think we even know if there is a trend of Old World dragons aligning with a single Wind, or whether such alignment is merely rare in the Old World but a cultural taboo on Ulthuan.
 
If anything based on what we know OOC the Cathayan Dragons seem to align themselves with half the winds. So not Qhyash, but a form of high magic.

And that's setting aside that we know pretty much nothing about how they differ from the sort of dragons we are more familiar with. Like we've seen death fang and the thing the Supreme Patriarch turns into ain't that.
 
BaseDeltaZero said:
In fact, they don't seem to use magic at all (at least in the casting sense)
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There's a series of White Dwarf articles giving rules for Elves vs. Dwarfs back in the War of Vengeance. One of them is that dragons can actually become wizards (though only with the Lore of Fire)

BaseDeltaZero said:
The point is, it's not immediately obvious that Dragon = High Magic, and in fact they seem to be quite susceptible to being wind-locked.
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Cathayan dragons are rather weird. No other dragons transform into humans either.

But like, Yin and Yang in the new Cathay material are explicitly each combinations of half of the Winds of Magic.

My only point is that I don't think regular humans could use Yin and Yang anymore than they could use any other form of High Magic.
 
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picklepikkl said:
Fun metaphysics on the Elementalism. I have no desire to write a paper that is just "Hey I read these books from another magical tradition and I figured some stuff out" -- as Boney said, that's kind of icky -- but now we can be smug and mysterious if the topic ever comes up in our presence, which is what really matters.
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I don't want to have Mathilde write a paper on this, but if there was some sort of background/off-screen note she could send to... someone... in the colleges directing their attention to the book/page that actually explicitly laid out why Elementalists don't combat users of wind magic that would be cool.
 
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I want to recap the Sofia meeting ideas I've noticed:
  • Silence to pressure her to make the first step.
    • Or to allow her to settle in and feel safe.
  • Genuine curiosity.
  • (Delibery/overly?) Friendly introduction to K8P.
    • With a tour.
    • Of the Library specifically.
    • And/or to meet the locals.
      • Give her tips on navigating the local culture and staying on everyone's good side.
    • Ask her what she thinks about Dwarves/Halflings/Spiders/local Wizards.
  • Introduce Wolf.
  • Be straightforward about our role as a senior Grey Wizard and its implications in order to not beat around the bush or have her feeling like she has to navigate that.
    • Emphasize that there is no out of the ordinary scrutiny on her, that there's no reason to hide.
    • And that we don't pass judgement easily. "The Empire needs Wizards".
  • Talk about Mathilde's hat.
    • Take it off.
    • And its former owner.
    • As a way to relate the experience of meeting scary people who then become close friends.
      • Emphasize how fear holds you back.
  • Share Mathilde's first years as a Journeywoman in general as a way to talk about what it's like to be in a scary situation and under suspicion as a 20 year old Wizard and relate through that.
  • Talk about religion/philosophy.
  • Talk about experiencing the Winds.
  • Talk about Panoramia (in a positive manner).
    • Include context about our romantic relationship.
  • Emphasize the legal protection of Wizards in the Empire.
    • By relating our own recruitment story.
  • Shock her with openness to being asked questions.
  • Tell her that our door is always open, as is our Library. And we are happy to give advice or be a source of information.
  • Strictly business onboarding to the K8P Wizard community and the facilities available to it.
  • Talk about Tilea/Estalia and our plans to visit (suggestion said Tilea but I'm pretty sure she's Estalian, as is the Nexus we want to map in the near future).
  • Talk about something random like sheep.
  • Lean into being a mysterious Dwarfy Grey Wizard.
    • "Acceptable if barely"
  • Be as scary as she expects so she doesn't have to question herself.
  • Advise that she tries to see her move to K8P as a fresh slate and leave the past in the past.
  • Ask her about herself.
  • Open by saying this is not an interrogation.
  • Talk about how survival is still based on chance for young magic users in the Empire, but how Mathilde plans to protect her if she can.
    • Including from fates worse than death of necessary.
  • Invite her to some gambling.
  • Talk to her about Windsight and ask her about hers.
  • Tell her that we've never killed a rogue Collegiate and don't plan on her to be the first.
  • Emphasize how we chose alliance over banishment or extermination when the We were in our way.
  • Invite her (and Pan) to magical experimentation in one of the towers.
Also, for completions sake, what I believe to be the joke suggestions.
  • Mindhole interrogation.
  • Visit Cython and/or Kragg.
  • Talk about music taste.
  • Show her the Liber Mortis.
  • Discuss necromancy.

Retrueno said:
As far as I know there is no I'm between polities relevant for this. Cathay is separated by the Ogre Kingdoms (who uses Gut Magic) and and the Dark Lands (I think the only polity here are the Chaos Dwarfs).
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Which is why my mind went specifically to the planet's naval superpowers.

Boney said:
Apart from being a quest protagonist, what makes Mathilde the right person for this job?
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My guess would be something along the line of how the Waystone Project gave her both experience with varying magical paradigms and how they can work together and also the opinion that more magical cooperation and information sharing is a very good thing.
Or in other words, Mathilde is both more likely than other LMs to think its worth the effort and has an ever growing ego that makes her think that she'd be a good facilitator.

That said, given the kinds of options that the vote where we decided to start the Waystone Project had, I doubt going to Cathay would end up being one of my top four choices, personally speaking.
AsuraAtlas said:
I think your overall post is really clever and interesting, but this bit might be countered by WoB:
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Doesn't really counter it? Materially manifested Djinn can superficially look and move like Elementals, yet be spirit-like entities capable of bargaining with, bonding, or being captured by Arabyan spellcasters.
 
Regarding Sofia, My question here is: What's the aim here for the conversation? (or lack thereof) Not even overall, I think everyone here wants the colleges to eventually have one more Jade wizard, but just the here and now goal.

Are we aiming to set her at ease? Establishing a rapport? Setting her on the straight and narrow?
 
For me personally the IC aim is to get to know her, establish rapport, and aid at least a bit towards her development into a respectable and trustworthy Jade Journeywoman, both because it is the right thing to do and because it would count as a success for Panoramia and her philosophy.

OOC it is mostly just valuing our relationship with Pan plus curiosity towards how this butterflied canon necromancer will be portrayed by Boney.
 
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DragonParadox said:
You know what we just learned makes the Seviroscope all the more interesting as it would not only allow runesmiths to see the wind but also, if it can be operated at a distance, allow College mages to see magic that has not been forced into neutral by their presence.
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Honestly, terribly, my big take away from this is "probably we'll need to get the elementalists to make the seviroscope". A measuring tool that intrinsically alters the state of whatever it's measuring is just a lot less versatile than one which doesn't.

I don't know if Mathilde's smug sense of superiority will survive.
 
Saidoro said:
I don't know if Mathilde's smug sense of superiority will survive.
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It will survive just fine. Mathilde alone, out of all the College Magisters, was able to see the true value of the Elementalists, which are admittedly inferior and yet are able to provide paradigm shattering insight into a niche area of magic. If one is perceptive and experienced enough to see the larger picture and how all magic is interconnected. You know, like Mathilde.
 
Saidoro said:
Honestly, terribly, my big take away from this is "probably we'll need to get the elementalists to make the seviroscope". A measuring tool that intrinsically alters the state of whatever it's measuring is just a lot less versatile than one which doesn't.

I don't know if Mathilde's smug sense of superiority will survive.
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Maybe, though it should be noted that Bok was called out as being a lot more sturdy than human made elementals. I think exposing it to marginal quantities of Ulgu should be fine, especially since Krag just needs to see the runes on his soul. I don't think those will change because of a few wisps of Ulgu.
 
Saidoro said:
Honestly, terribly, my big take away from this is "probably we'll need to get the elementalists to make the seviroscope". A measuring tool that intrinsically alters the state of whatever it's measuring is just a lot less versatile than one which doesn't.

I don't know if Mathilde's smug sense of superiority will survive.
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I don't think the Elementalists can even make enchantments. And whilst it would be nice to find a way to avoid the tool affecting anything, it's a pretty niche topic; if it were a big deal, Mathilde's Windsight would be pretty useless, no?
 
DragonParadox said:
Maybe, though it should be noted that Bok was called out as being a lot more sturdy than human made elementals. I think exposing it to marginal quantities of Ulgu should be fine, especially since Krag just needs to see the runes on his soul. I don't think those will change because of a few wisps of Ulgu.
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If we're only planning on using it for the single case of Bok, maybe. But even then we've got no way of knowing if Mathilde's presence is a factor in our ability to perceive the runes because we've never observed Bok out of Mathilde's presence. And I think we do want the Seviroscope to potentially be useful for other projects after Bok, which the ability to perceive earthbound magic might be useful for.

Deathbybunnies said:
I don't think the Elementalists can even make enchantments. And whilst it would be nice to find a way to avoid the tool affecting anything, it's a pretty niche topic; if it were a big deal, Mathilde's Windsight would be pretty useless, no?
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No. It's entirely possible for Mathilde's windsight to be very broadly useful for the purpose of doing collegiate magister things and also for its blind spots to have some significant implications in some other circumstances. Something being an edge case doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
 
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Saidoro said:
If we're only planning on using it for the single case of Bok, maybe. But even then we've got no way of knowing if Mathilde's presence is a factor in our ability to perceive the runes because we've never observed Bok out of Mathilde's presence. And I think we do want the Seviroscope to potentially be useful for other projects after Bok, which the ability to perceive earthbound magic might be useful for.
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I'm not sure I understand the underlined. Of course Mathilde's presence is a factor in her ability to see the runes, the only means she has to see something's soul is her own windsight. The point of the device is to grant artificial windsight to someone who knows runes i.e. Kragg, this would like all magic items work independent of the presence of its creator.
 
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For the Sevirscope maybe we could ask for help to some great house.

It could also be a way to see if the elves would get recognized as "Archmages" by Bok



Rafin said:
Which is why my mind went specifically to the planet's naval superpowers.
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Oh, yeah those might be a problem. Mainly Ulthuan (I don't think they know we can even trade with the Druchii).
 
DragonParadox said:
I'm not sure I understand the underlined. Of course Mathilde's presence is a factor in her ability to see the runes, the only means she has to see something is her own windsight. The point of the device is to grant artificial windsight to someone who knows runes i.e. Kragg, this would like all magic items work independent of the presence of its creator.
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It is possible that some components of Bok are in different states when around wind magic and when not around wind magic, and that either the state they are in when not around wind magic is in some way important to understanding how Bok as a whole works or that the state they are in while around wind magic obscures important parts of Bok's function.

Consider trying to take a technical photograph of something with a few highly reflective elements while unable to turn off the flash on your camera. Or trying to get a close look at it personally while your head is a lightbulb.
 
[] Just go to a restaurant to make small talk and be emotionally supportive. The robes and the badge already say enough.

I think complicated plans or long directed speeches are a bit of a pointless approach. We aren't here to spy on her, we're just the girlfriend of her master, so there's no need to meet her as anything other than a new acquaintance. And I think she'll appreciate that too.
 
Saidoro said:
It is possible that some components of Bok are in different states when around wind magic and when not around wind magic, and that either the state they are in when not around wind magic is in some way important to understanding how Bok as a whole works or that the state they are in while around wind magic obscures important parts of Bok's function.

Consider trying to take a technical photograph of something with a few highly reflective elements while unable to turn off the flash on your camera. Or trying to get a close look at it personally while your head is a lightbulb.
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I suppose it is, but that kind of malleability seems very unlike runic magic from everything we have seen of it and in this case it would be the runes hiding.
 
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