Playing devil's advocate... it's one more daemon in the Deep Wastes. Why should anyone care, they can walk around free up there.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Playing devil's advocate... it's one more daemon in the Deep Wastes. Why should anyone care, they can walk around free up there.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Its few more gold coins in slavering empire that will not really benefit much from that contribution because someone else would´ve bought it anyway and they are not gonna stop slaving anytime soon either.
If we can have monetary transactions with fucking chaos worshippers on an Expedition we did not really need to get on. And then buy stuff from chaos dwarfs and norscans.
Then this is hair splitting of an almost negative degree and i flat out call bullshit on it. We paid some norscan unreal amount of money for ghyran nut. How is that literally any different.
Even if I granted that some small scale trade with the Druchii is fine - and I don't - the "we traded with Chaos worshippers and Chorfs before so why not Druchii" line kind of gives the game away. If we interact with the Druchii in any remotely non-hostile way people will use that as justification for yet more interaction. I know they call it the "slippery slope fallacy" but people are greasing the slopes and handing out skis as we speak so yeah.
Norscans do not deserve to be spoken of in the same breath as that other stuff, there's a spectrum. That said I really do not care about a few more coins, or a few thousand for that matter. Opening trade relations on the other hand is orders of magnitude more money.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I don´t approve of long term treaties with them, but they have resources we can use, our money won´t be that much more contribution to whatever war effort they make and the books might end up being really useful. We literally traded with worse on a goddamn lark. Damn the slippery slope to hell.
Actually... we literally could´ve been taught by a goddamn skaven! There was that nat 6 boney was praying to not roll. So like. I don´t dig your line of reasoning any more than you do mine.
I'm not sure a single trade route would affect Malekith's finances on the State level. A few noble houses will make a lot of money, and they'll fight tooth and claw against anyone that threatens their new source of income, so really all we'd be doing is funding the literal cut throat politics that keep the Druchii from being a unified bloc.
Basically, we'd be influencing which ever city we trade with to turn into a mini-Marienburg, only with more murder.
The devil doesn't need an advocate, but more importantly this tribe owns territory right next to the silk road. With the weapons and slaves they bought with our silver, they be able to threaten an even larger stretch of territory, putting any merchant that takes that road in significant danger.
This will result in fewer merchants choosing to use that road (especially when all the other roads east are much safer), which in turn reduces the amount of income Vlag can collect in the form of tolls and taxes from passing merchants.
Vlag desperately needs that income, because they are one of the poorest dwarf holds in the world, and they need that money to protect High Pass and prevent threats—such as a tribe of Kurgan lead by an empowered demon prince—from passing westwards into Kislev.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
We literally gave him silver to "maybe finish the final syllable". Whatever the fuck that means. For all we know he is now a daemon prince or next everchosen candidate. We did that. For expedition we chose to be on that we did not have to be on. At this point arguing against it for moral virtue points is pure hypocrisy.
I am not saying we should start jumping up and down and support sea of claws slave trade route, i am saying that if they are here, someone from eonir is already buying shit anyway and the few hundred gold coins could possible go long way to furthering our understanding of... whatever we pick. I am honestly not sure if i would vote for any purchase myself, but i rail against this reasoning anyway, because Mathilde already supplied chaos to further her own curiosity.
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure the extra-mutated guy was a Yusak who lives much farther north. The people next to the Silk Road are the Dolgans, we had two food for pay deals with the Kurgans, one organised before hand and one done on the fly to make up for the loss of food with the Alriskson.
- Location
- USA
Alas, Eshin-Friend was not meant to be...
*Deadpan* Oh no Slaanesh has one more daemon prince to go with his *checks notes* Numberless hosts. Oh but this one's special he's... a Kurgan warlord
- Location
- Denmark
Just weighing in, we have already bought stuff from the druchii. This was in Uzkulak mind you, and what happens in Uzkulak stays in Uzkulak.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
The sad part is that i think, if Ranald could make it happen, maybe Eshin friend could be flipped, or open up a narrative thread of there being an "underground" (kek) skaven faction that worshipped classical gods on the side and tried to make Skaven less extreme.Probably not but i can dream, damnit.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Waaaghbane really is the biggest informational deal we can share that won't actually harm anyone we care about. I'll second Tasoli's concerns about the Skaven though, given that the Druchii we extradited to Ulthuan clearly knew enough to negotiate with them. And I'm up for trading crafting materials, but only after we actually successfully make the staff for Eike. It'd be embarrassing to fail the first time and then have to commission another.
Regarding gold, it all has to do with what we're trading in exchange. For the Expedition, even though it was for obtaining food and making sure people don't starve, Mathilde still didn't tell people about the dude's stated intentions with the silver, because it's already bad enough to have to negotiate with the Kurgan.
Similarly, if it's for the purposes of obtaining information on when Karond Kar fleets are gonna attack the Empire, sure, absolutely, I have zero problem negotiating giving these particular negotiators gold. We can even moderately trust them in this regard because these particular Druchii would benefit from their rivals in another city needing to go to them for more ships.
But I wouldn't trade gold for just books, unless they were good enough to be of direct use against the Empire's enemies.
Regarding gold, it all has to do with what we're trading in exchange. For the Expedition, even though it was for obtaining food and making sure people don't starve, Mathilde still didn't tell people about the dude's stated intentions with the silver, because it's already bad enough to have to negotiate with the Kurgan.
Similarly, if it's for the purposes of obtaining information on when Karond Kar fleets are gonna attack the Empire, sure, absolutely, I have zero problem negotiating giving these particular negotiators gold. We can even moderately trust them in this regard because these particular Druchii would benefit from their rivals in another city needing to go to them for more ships.
But I wouldn't trade gold for just books, unless they were good enough to be of direct use against the Empire's enemies.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Now that's just not true. This Shadow Warrior would love to trade with the Druchii:
- Pronouns
- He
Minor nitpick, but the very mutated guy who was nearly a demon prince was the leader of the Yusak group we went with Ljiljana to grab the demon-goblet. The one we paid with silver was just a moderately mutated Slaaneshi tribe leader.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
It's about context. Trading with nominal enemies while you're on an Expedition in hostile territory with limited options is different from doing it when you're in home territory and do have the luxury of choosing who you deal with.
- Location
- USA
Oh, I'd have been fine if we stayed enemies after but can you imagine a situation where a member of Clan Eshin is one of our contacts? It would have been great.
I miss interacting with Skaven, they're my favorite WHF faction.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
You are quite right, i misremembered. Original quote:
We prepared all of it in advance. We did not have to go there. Our actual responsibilities were just to map shit. We did this of our own volition. And even if that was not enough. When we were in Uzkulak, we did not have to buy fun stuff stuff from chaos guys, we could´ve just bought food. But we did. Because it sated our curiosuty. This is a non-defense because Mathilde already did that stuff.
Last edited:
The only things we could trade about the skaven are things that the skaven almost certainly already know.
And if we do trade something that will make it easier to fight skaven, the dark elves will never trade it to them, they'll instead use it to be better at raiding and enslaving said skaven.
And if we do trade something that will make it easier to fight skaven, the dark elves will never trade it to them, they'll instead use it to be better at raiding and enslaving said skaven.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
First of all cool it. Different circumtances makes people think differently and that is no reason to start attacking people by calling it hypocrisy.
Second, what we did was one time deal and it is done but using that as a cudgel to try and beat people in future votes is not right or proper.
Third, many people including me were uncomfortable with the dolgan trade and Uzkulak both. But there was no alternative to Dolgan trade and Uzkulak was a mistake we should not repeat.
Forth, Druchi is not asking money or luxury good and don't try to kid yourself that you can buy magic with those. IF Druchi wants gold they will get it themselves. They are asking favors or trades in kind which means secrets for secrets and favors for favors.
Finally we have options now that we did not back then and we should explore them before recklessly throwing ourselves to bed with Druchi.
In short just because we did some shady stuff in the past is no reason to be keep doin it. There is no point in repeating mistakes.
Last edited:
- Location
- Earth
I said limited options, not no options. I'm not arguing we 'had to' do anything, I'm arguing that the cost-benefit ratio and risk calculation was different.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Bold of you to say that before the trade option is even written in. We do not know yet what it will cost. If the price is too steep, we can just not pay it.
I don´t think putting a purse or two away is really going to swing the war on Ulthuan or ease the ravaging of the Black Arks. At possibly significant benefit to our effort.
Last edited:
Slaaksho Irnik was the name of the Chieftain we traded with, he is a Kurgan, and was going to use the silver to summon demons.
I'm fairly sure we broke the Articles doing this trade.
I'm just failing to see how trading spices to the Druchii is any worse than this.
We most certainly did not as we did not summon any demons. The articles govern the use of imperial magic not who you are allowed to talk to, that is a matter of secular and religious law
The big thing is that the dark elves aren't a major threat to the Empire. If we sell them orc and skaven secrets they'll be more likely to attack some of our actual enemies rather than humans, as it'll be easier than it currently is, changing the cost/risk/reward trade off. That will slightly strengthen the dark elves, which is generally a bad thing, but it also weakens some more threatening enemies.