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While there's good reason to be concerned about the safety of the infrastructure, we're not at the point where we should be aiming to improve on it. And right now, every waystone is a dharbomb waiting to happen, the beastmen have anti-waystones, and Sylvania doesn't have anything except dhar puddles. And until the polar gates get fixed (now there's a goal for Mathilde), there will always be winds and dhar. As with any security, the defense is at a disadvantage, because the attacker only needs to find one weakness.

Ultimately, the answer is two-fold: Redundancy, and monitoring. First, you don't rely on just one system, even if it's super well defended, because everything can be broken. This was the mistake of Nekhara1​. So you have river leylines, and the existing standard leylines. And you have more than one way of getting magic into/out of the river or the waystone. Second, you monitor the system, so that if something breaks, or gets broken, you can switch to another method until repairs can be done. Basically, the idea is to limit the damage when something breaks and buy the time needed for repairs, combined with actively checking for damages. The elven waystones actually do both of these, in that there's multiple connections leading to the Vortex2​ and central monitoring agent, which is way the network is still ticking along after millenia of sub-par maintenance and active efforts to destroy it. It's not perfect, since they have only one final output in the Vortex, but the Ulthuan elves probably don't much care because it won't be their problem anymore if the Vortex is gone3​.

A useful idea here is N+k redundancy4​. You need N components to ensure proper operation, and you want to be able to handle k simultaneous failures, so you actually use N+k. Crucially, this applies recursively at different levels. A complete failure at a lower level means the failure of one node at the next higher level. An example:

You require 6 tributaries to keep a region clean. Tributaries don't get attacked much, so you only 1 more, since they can get damaged just by natural disasters and because you don't want to check often. That's the lowest level, the setup for one waystone, and in some regions you may adjust the minimum number of tributaries or the slack.
Then one level up, the nexus as the central point. Since waystones can link to waystones, this is a little more complicated, because you have to decide how they link up. If you can form a network with multiple in and outflows (IIRC, you can't actually), you need to decide how many are requried for minimum operation, and how many slack connections are requird. If you can only have chains, you need to decide how many chains, and if you want to interweave them so that one chain chan compensate for the failure of another (and if it's possible at all). If you can't actually have multiple active waystone in the same region, you may decide to have a (or multiple!) switched off set ready to take things on 5​.
And then one more level up, you have the vortex as the central point, with nexi now taking the role of waystones. How many simultaneous failures do you expect? You should be able to rerout so that you the remaining ones can still reach the vortex. This is a region where there's definite concerns, because there's serveral potential bottlenecks.
And finally, you could have multiple parallel networks. That sort of exists locally sometimes a little, but not really. Some sections of the network are somewhat independant, but they probably all rely on the Vortex.

The critical point of course is cost. Having a huge slack capacity is expensive. We will not be building a second network. Building a new nexus is plausible in the future, but would likely be a significant effort. Building a few waystones here and there to even things out is easily doable, doing it everywhere is major project again. Same for the tributaries. If we wanted to up the slack everywhere, it would be the work of decades.

Technology is another factor in the consideration. For example, the storage capacity of the foundation will dictate how many tributaries you can reasobably connect to it, and how many connections are required. The more buffer you have, the smaller the required slack, because you can ride out temporary failures. And of course, the quicker your response time, the less buffer capacity is required. You'd estimate you're slack as something like the failure rate times the repair time6​.

All the above was about damage to the connected system, pretty much like connectivity in a power grid. Of course, you also have usage. A storm of magic will put vastly more stress on your system, and you need to decide how to handle that8​. It's mostly a matter of setting you're minimum specs, and how much above "normal" you're aiming. And that's a matter of how frequent storms are, and how much you can tolerate an "overloaded" state, since the magic will mostly just be there, but you probably want your cities cleaner than some desert part with nothing in it.

And finally, from an adverserial security perspective, you have some more considerations: Do you want one approach/technology which is highly secure, or several less secure technolgies. The first reduces the chance of someone breaking in, but if it does happen you're proper fucked9​. Or do you use mutliple approaches, which each require a different way to break, thereby risking more frequent damage but reducing the scope? Personnally, I'd generally recommend the second10​. You can recover from damage, you cannot recover from annhilation.

1​That, and getting targeted by Nagash. At some point, you're just overmatched. If you're a normal business getting targeted by the NASA or China, you're pretty much getting broken in. Security does still help by making you a less appealing target (so they might go for someone else), and by having a chance at damage mitigation.
2​Though ideally, you'd have mutliple outflows at each waystone. That might now have been feasible given the underlying architecture, or it might have been too expensive, or they did have it and degradation over time just saw those destroyed or moved to fix up holes.
3​This is something we might actually be able to improve upon, though handling dhar would be a huge challenge. But at least normal magic seems to be used up by both the dwarfs and Kiselv.
4​Or N-1 safety, which are basically the same idea, just different fields. N-1 I think is more a power grid thing.
5​ though that also depends on your technical capabilities, I don't remember if tributaries can be switched off.
6​which includes detection, and repair can be as simple as rerouting. Well, you'd look at the different failure modes, and estimate seperately (stone is damaged, connection is damaged, connection has already been rerouted and now a new failure occurs), but that's below the abstraction 7​.
7​Not that most of this discussion isn't anyway.
8​There's also the waxing and waning of the flow between chaos invasions. And of course, Kislev will want and need more outflow capacity than Araby.
9​Again, Nagash
10​Obviously, adding a dhar dispenser with a labled button is not a good idea, as an extreme case of a very unsecure system. But the rivers actually have a lot of inbuilt safety features, arguably more than waystones.
 
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And right now, every waystone is a dharbomb waiting to happen
They are not, is the problem. Yeeting a waystone right now requires active effort by a person that is reasonably skilled with magic. Yeeting the Dwarf Capstone prototype just requires fucking up the next waystone downstream. This could potentially lead to entire lines of waystones exploding because there is one link missing in the chain, with no further intervention necessary.


I don´t require the infrastructure to be better than current network, but i certainly want it to be safe enough to not become an active hazard to an entire area without significant effort from the enemy party.
 
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They are not, is the problem. Yeeting a waystone right now requires active effort by a person that is reasonably skilled with magic. Yeeting the Dwarf Capstone prototype just requires fucking up the next waystone downstream. This could potentially lead to entire lines of waystones exploding because there is one link missing in the chain, with no further intervention necessary.


I don´t require the infrastructure to be better than current network, but i certainly want it to be safe enough to not become an active hazard to an entire area without significant effort from the enemy party.
I'm pretty sure that if you switch off the next waystone down, you're going to have trouble with capstone waystones too. If you've got inflow but no outflow, you'll always have trouble. I think it came up both when Vlag was switched off, and when we did the testing for the project.
 
I'm pretty sure that if you switch off the next waystone down, you're going to have trouble with capstone waystones too. If you've got inflow but no outflow, you'll always have trouble. I think it came up both when Vlag was switched off, and when we did the testing for the project.

That's assuming that the main network can't reroute. Each Waystone could be linked to multiple others, and the flow could be reversible depending on magic concentration levels.

It would make much more sense if it was designed like the internet or a mesh is.
 
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That's assuming that the main network can't reroute. Each Waystone could be linked to multiple others, and the flow could be reversible depending on magic concentration levels.

It would make much more sense if it was designed like the internet or a mesh is.
If there's Waystones to reroute to.

Any redundancy in the network has been worn away in a lot of places.
 
I'm pretty sure that if you switch off the next waystone down, you're going to have trouble with capstone waystones too. If you've got inflow but no outflow, you'll always have trouble. I think it came up both when Vlag was switched off, and when we did the testing for the project.
It did come up when we did the leyline testing. There were two connected Waystones feeding into the network, shutting off the one upstream will eventaully cause both of them to turn into Dhar machines:
"The flow is still coming from upstream," Hatalath observes. "And likely would do so indefinitely. Eventually this Waystone would become filled to capacity, and then the energy will pile up and begin to radiate out, like a river breaking its banks. The disruption would continue upstream until it reaches that Waystone, and then it will reabsorb all the Dhar it releases until it too reaches its capacity. You would end up with a straight line of corruption between the two, with the Waystones turned into beacons of pure Dhar just waiting until a Storm of Magic forces more energy in and bursts the containment mechanisms."
If we want to know more about how Waystones can go wrong we should probably look into the Mordheim and Forest of Shadow nexuses.
 
I think this is a good opportunity to investigate the Bugman's Brewery Nexus or Karaz Ankor Network with just Thorek. Investigating the Karaz Ankor Network seems a little more interesting to me, but I am curious what the thread thinks. @picklepikkl it seems like you are also interested in these actions.
I like both of those actions a lot, yeah. Of the two, I think I would prefer the Bugman nexus if we were taking the action soon, because it's more of a mystery box and opening mystery boxes relatively early is generally a good idea, since then you have more time to incorporate the results. My expectation is that the Karaz Ankor Network action would give us more technical details on how the Karaks are linked up and give Mathilde some ideas for building new Waystones to link Young Holds to the network, which I have to imagine the High King would love if it were possible, but I don't have any idea what Bugman's might give us. Certainly none of us expected what we got from Athel Yenlui.

Boney, is there anything you can tell us about Thorek's likely attitude, according to Mathilde's estimation, if we brought Eike along on an investigation that was likely to touch on Dwarf secrets? Based on what you've said about dwarf attitudes to master apprentice relations, it seems to me likely that this would be considered appropriate (and she can be out of the room if something really sensitive comes up) but I wanted to check (since I'd like to include Eike on some Waystone stuff eventually and mapping/Nexus actions seem like the places she's likeliest to not just be dead weight).
 
I'm pretty sure that if you switch off the next waystone down, you're going to have trouble with capstone waystones too. If you've got inflow but no outflow, you'll always have trouble. I think it came up both when Vlag was switched off, and when we did the testing for the project.
Yeah, it starts to accumulate Dhar. It doesn´t explode in god knows how big a boom.
 
Yeah, it starts to accumulate Dhar. It doesn´t explode in god knows how big a boom.
It starts accumulating Dhar until it's over capacity, in which case something awful happens. Which is exactly the same as with our capstone prototypes. The titangold capstone probably is a little safer, but any system that accumulates dhar will always be a danger. That's the nature of dhar.
 
I like both of those actions a lot, yeah. Of the two, I think I would prefer the Bugman nexus if we were taking the action soon, because it's more of a mystery box and opening mystery boxes relatively early is generally a good idea, since then you have more time to incorporate the results. My expectation is that the Karaz Ankor Network action would give us more technical details on how the Karaks are linked up and give Mathilde some ideas for building new Waystones to link Young Holds to the network, which I have to imagine the High King would love if it were possible, but I don't have any idea what Bugman's might give us. Certainly none of us expected what we got from Athel Yenlui.
Keep in mind that the Karaz Ankor network involves Karak-Waystones, which are obviously very different designs from the normal Waystones and which our research doesn't really tell us anything about. Bugman's nexus is part of the normal Waystone network, and while it may or may not have a unique design like the Athel Yelnui Waystone it's definitely not a giant mountain rune, so it's probably more relevant to our current research.
 
Keep in mind that the Karaz Ankor network involves Karak-Waystones, which are obviously very different designs from the normal Waystones and which our research doesn't really tell us anything about.
Hunh; Karak Waystones have a different design? When did we learn that? I had assumed that the Golden Age partnership involved some of the collaborative efforts going to the elves and some to the dwarves, not that the dwarf network was entirely distinct in design.

Whatever they are, they must be similar enough to Elven Waystones for Panoramia to have been drawing power from them like she told us on our zeroth date, but it's fascinating to consider that they might work differently under the hood.
 
Boney, is there anything you can tell us about Thorek's likely attitude, according to Mathilde's estimation, if we brought Eike along on an investigation that was likely to touch on Dwarf secrets? Based on what you've said about dwarf attitudes to master apprentice relations, it seems to me likely that this would be considered appropriate (and she can be out of the room if something really sensitive comes up) but I wanted to check (since I'd like to include Eike on some Waystone stuff eventually and mapping/Nexus actions seem like the places she's likeliest to not just be dead weight).

She might be asked to leave the room if particularly sensitive things need discussing or disclosing, but bringing her along in the first place would be fine.
 
Yeah, it starts to accumulate Dhar. It doesn´t explode in god knows how big a boom.

That is covered in the RPG, it makes a Dhar fountain that makes all aspiring sorcerers ,necromancers and daemonologists very happy (more dice for your magic). I do not think actual physical explosions are guaranteed, though on the balance it might be better if they were since at least then the Dhar spigot would turn off eventually rather than be available indefinitely, One boom and done is better than a literally never-ending flow of corruption generally.
 
They are not, is the problem. Yeeting a waystone right now requires active effort by a person that is reasonably skilled with magic. Yeeting the Dwarf Capstone prototype just requires fucking up the next waystone downstream. This could potentially lead to entire lines of waystones exploding because there is one link missing in the chain, with no further intervention necessary.


I don´t require the infrastructure to be better than current network, but i certainly want it to be safe enough to not become an active hazard to an entire area without significant effort from the enemy party.
It depends on what foundation we use. The current foundations overflow when full, which while not great would mean the runic capstone could empty itself out just fine, with no explosions. If we build a foundation that can't handle taking in more Dhar when full at all, then it would be a problem.
 
Hunh; Karak Waystones have a different design? When did we learn that? I had assumed that the Golden Age partnership involved some of the collaborative efforts going to the elves and some to the dwarves, not that the dwarf network was entirely distinct in design.

Whatever they are, they must be similar enough to Elven Waystones for Panoramia to have been drawing power from them like she told us on our zeroth date, but it's fascinating to consider that they might work differently under the hood.

Well, the whole mountain is apparently a waystone, rather than just a relatively small structure that normal ones are. Which is probably connected to why they can still pull in a good amount of energy without any feeder structures, since they just use the Karak's and repeaters. Their Supersized waystones probably have much greater pulling range.

One boom and done is better than a literally never-ending flow of corruption generally.

Pretty sure that was a part of the college class we took yeah, when you should just blow the thing up.
 
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It starts accumulating Dhar until it's over capacity, in which case something awful happens. Which is exactly the same as with our capstone prototypes. The titangold capstone probably is a little safer, but any system that accumulates dhar will always be a danger. That's the nature of dhar.
The problem is that it can cause cascade failure, which original waystones don´t.

Also you can´t unscrew the top to get a free bomb.
It depends on what foundation we use. The current foundations overflow when full, which while not great would mean the runic capstone could empty itself out just fine, with no explosions. If we build a foundation that can't handle taking in more Dhar when full at all, then it would be a problem.
This is good point however, that i somehow completely missed. It would still mean that someone can just unscrew the top and leave it sitting/destroy the foundation and wait till the capstone gets full to get a weapon of mass destruction for free, but at least it means they won´t randomly blow up just because something happened to the one downstream.
 
I have been prototyping some turn plans for next turn. My proposed plan is similar to some of the others I have seen being proposed, so the main interesting decision is what to do as a second Waystone action. The main non-Waystone related actions are I want to catch a Rider in Red and attempt to create a liminal realm. For the two Waystone actions I have investigating the Foundations as the first, but there are several options that seem interesting for the second. I am planning to include the whole Waystone project on the Foundation, so for the second option I am thinking about some of the actions we would only want to do with Thorek. While we could do the follow up action to investigate acquiring Titan metal, I think this is a good opportunity to investigate the Bugman's Brewery Nexus or Karaz Ankor Network with just Thorek. Investigating the Karaz Ankor Network seems a little more interesting to me, but I am curious what the thread thinks. @picklepikkl it seems like you are also interested in these actions.

[ ] Plan Bring a good pair of running shoes
-[ ] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[ ] COIN: The Gambler
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[ ] EGRIMM: Write a paper (Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands)
-[ ] Waystone: Foundation (Everyone)
-[ ] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)
-[ ] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[ ] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[ ] KAU: Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library or a Karak's archives to be able to make copies of their corpus (Karak Vlag Archives)
-[ ] SERENITY: TBD
-[ ] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings study, Windfall paper, EIC action, KAU action
-[ ] Eike Study: Intrigue (Red Team against EIC)

The plan title is a reference to the advice in this article and the plan for what to do if investigating creating a liminal realm goes wrong.
I like it a lot.

I'd love if Eike studied Witchsight too in addition to Intrigue. It can help with Intrigue and it has been an invaluable skill for Mathilde.

I'd also like Eike attending the Foundation if only because seeing a bunch of experts in different magic systems all working together is not really something common. Even if she doesn't get much of what it's said she could always take notes and review them at a later time.
 
Hunh; Karak Waystones have a different design? When did we learn that? I had assumed that the Golden Age partnership involved some of the collaborative efforts going to the elves and some to the dwarves, not that the dwarf network was entirely distinct in design.

Whatever they are, they must be similar enough to Elven Waystones for Panoramia to have been drawing power from them like she told us on our zeroth date, but it's fascinating to consider that they might work differently under the hood.
We saw a Karak Waystone when we turned off the Vlag Waystone. It was a mountain shaped like a giant Rune or something:
Even though you have an exact compass heading to work with, finding the Waystone is still easier said than done. Most Waystones are either Elven monoliths or stone menhirs jutting out of the ground and are therefore very easy to spot even to those that can't see the magical suction siphoning the Winds from the air, but the Dwarven ones aren't quite so obvious to mundane or mystical senses. As far as you can tell they do not absorb Winds themselves, existing only to funnel the Winds absorbed by the great Karak-Waystones towards Karaz-a-Karak, and that power runs deep underground which makes it even harder to spot. It takes you, Johann and Hubert several hours to find your way to the Waystone, much of it spent with you in meditation as you try to catch a glimpse of the river of magical power far below you to confirm that you're still on course.

At last you come to a small mountain that at first glance seems no different to those surrounding it, but deep below the magical energies break from the perfectly straight line to turn more to the east. Close examination of the mountain itself reveals nothing; it's not until you move away and examine it from afar that the natural-seeming crags, cracks and gullies combine to form a massive Rune you don't recognize. The next step is to make your way to the peak, which would be no mean feat to those not capable of teleportation or flight, where the nature of the stone is somehow altered to allow for energy to pass through it without any loss of clarity or intensity. You place your hands upon it and recall the lessons you were taught of the ways the Colleges know to interact with them, and speak unfamiliar phrases while you form a construct you do not understand in your mind to funnel Ulgu into.
You're right that they aren't completely unrelated to dwarven Waystones, as you can see in the end of that quote the phrases Mathilde learned at the Colleges can still turn them off. Maybe this is because they were built in collaboration with the elves and the two factions wanted one set of commands to allow maintenance on all Waystones, Mathilde did hypothesize that the Karak Waystones were once connected to the wider network so that makes some sense, but they are definitely very different when it comes to the components that make them: there's no capstone, if there is a foundation it's deep underground and probably very large, and they use a Rune that doesn't appear on regular Waystones.
 
Yeah, it starts to accumulate Dhar. It doesn´t explode in god knows how big a boom.
I think Collages teaches their Magisters to blow up such waystones that became Dhar foutains. One time Dhar Explosion being better was the logic if I remember right.

Which means if our waystonse blow up by themselves it is better (maybe)?
 
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I think Collages teaches their Magisters to blow up such waystones that became Dhar foutains. One time Dhar Explosion being better was the logic if I remember right.
My problem is only that depending on foundation, we could have cascade failure on our hands, but someone already ameliorated that concern.

The secondary issue is that the runes would make for good bomb virtually anyone can use, but
1) they would first have to know that is a possibility
2) they would have to be able to judge if the rune is about to blow

Its not really as much of a concern as it might look like i am trying to make it, but thats still more things that could go wrong than with your basic capstone. Honestly looks like the Laurelorn way might be best.
 
We saw a Karak Waystone when we turned off the Vlag Waystone. It was a mountain shaped like a giant Rune or something:

You're right that they aren't completely unrelated to dwarven Waystones, as you can see in the end of that quote the phrases Mathilde learned at the Colleges can still turn them off. Maybe this is because they were built in collaboration with the elves and the two factions wanted one set of commands to allow maintenance on all Waystones, Mathilde did hypothesize that the Karak Waystones were once connected to the wider network so that makes some sense, but they are definitely very different when it comes to the components that make them: there's no capstone, if there is a foundation it's deep underground and probably very large, and they use a Rune that doesn't appear on regular Waystones.
I believe that the between-Karaks Waystones also only transfer magic, they don't absorb it from their surroundings.

The only places magic actually enters the system is at the Karaks themselves.
 
I believe that the between-Karaks Waystones also only transfer magic, they don't absorb it from their surroundings.

The only places magic actually enters the system is at the Karaks themselves.

Which does make sense since it's not like the Golden Age Dwarfs were interested in the general magical background of their mountains that much, they wanted magic out of their living areas so they would not turn to stone and when they did travel is was generally by underway.
 
The problem is that it can cause cascade failure, which original waystones don´t.

Also you can´t unscrew the top to get a free bomb.
My problem is only that depending on foundation, we could have cascade failure on our hands, but someone already ameliorated that concern.
What? Where do you get cascade failure from? It's not in the update, and I don't recall a WoB like that.

I mean, you can have a cascade failure, if one gets clogged up and blows, so the one feeding into it gets clogged up and blows, and so on. But that's a problem of the existing network. And the capstone has exactly nothing to do with it.
Also you can´t unscrew the top to get a free bomb.
The secondary issue is that the runes would make for good bomb virtually anyone can use, but
1) they would first have to know that is a possibility
2) they would have to be able to judge if the rune is about to blow

Its not really as much of a concern as it might look like i am trying to make it, but thats still more things that could go wrong than with your basic capstone. Honestly looks like the Laurelorn way might be best.
That's just flat out wrong. The dwarf capstone consists of two runes. One which draws in magic, and that can be a problem if you don't get it out again (I don't think it would blow up either since dwarfs used to put them in mined out tunnels, and I don't they'd like dhar explosions). But that's irrelevant, because the second rune discharges it again. Any problems with accumulation aren't going to be at the capstone.

I also think the concern about missuses of the capstone as a bomb is a bit overblown (hah), when warpstone exists and is widely known and used, and so is knowledge on how to corrupt existing way stones. And cramming a bunch of magic into a small spot until it turns into dhar is one of the easiest things to do in enchanting (one of the failure modes). Remember the shyish-kebabs from way back when? It was explicitly stated that they'd have turned into balls of dhar if they hadn't been stored in an enviroment of nearly perfect shyish. Getting loads of dhar into a place sadly is both an easy and a solved problem.
 
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If you can form a network with multiple in and outflows (IIRC, you can't actually)
I'm pretty sure nexuses at least can have multiple inflows. That's what makes them a nexus, multiple leylines are meeting there.

You're right that they aren't completely unrelated to dwarven Waystones, as you can see in the end of that quote the phrases Mathilde learned at the Colleges can still turn them off. Maybe this is because they were built in collaboration with the elves and the two factions wanted one set of commands to allow maintenance on all Waystones, Mathilde did hypothesize that the Karak Waystones were once connected to the wider network so that makes some sense, but they are definitely very different when it comes to the components that make them: there's no capstone, if there is a foundation it's deep underground and probably very large, and they use a Rune that doesn't appear on regular Waystones.
Huh. That, whole sequence does weird things to our theory that the waystone passwords work by querying caledor dragonbane. If the dwarven network is disconnected from the elven one, do you think he's still linked to and controlling them? But the passwords still work apparently...
 
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