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Given Golden age dwarves/elf didn't figure this stuff out, leaves three things left i think. One, is that we manage to hunt down Slann, and hopefully find the few among them who would know this, and that's not gurantied.
Two is that we jump to the actual sky titan's home, trying to see if we can find their old furnaces, but again. That's a long time, if that's still around is a big question, thirdly is Cathay and i don't think it's hinted at in warhammer that they know how to make it?
Personally, I've been curious about whether Waystone Gold had connections to Lizardman gold for some time, and one of the first possible formulae that came up for pyramidron is originally a Gold/Titanium biocompatible alloy that was being explored for prosthetics. Johann hasn't said anything about his arm, but I think there's still enough of a potential link there to be worth looking into.
 
Technically speaking we could buy out any titan metal the way we plan to make laurelorn buy all ithilmar but like, as i said, depending on limited stocks of expensive metal we have no way to manufacture ourselves sounds... inadvisable.

I do think the metalsmith guild could eventually figure it out, and probably should be given the task to discover how to make the metal (unless it turns out our new methods are at least breaking even in effectivity, safety and ease of manufacture), but thats a discovery that will take centuries to make.
 
Tributaries aren't Waystones.

I don't think any of them have Waystone gold.
Tributeries have no gold in them. They are worlds most boring rocks.
Belthani tributaries don't have Waystone Gold in them. Some tributaries are part of the original network, and they're just smaller Waystones:
For now, let's talk about tributaries. Each nexus is connected to a spiderweb of tens or hundreds of Waystones, and each Waystone is in turn fed by tributaries, which are only sometimes smaller versions of the same design. There are oghams," you nod to Tochter, "there are lornalim," to Cadaeth, "there are kurgans, and there are probably all sorts of other things.
 
Tributeries have no gold in them. They are worlds most boring rocks.
there are many types of tributaries, including ones of the same design as the main waystones.

For now, let's talk about tributaries. Each nexus is connected to a spiderweb of tens or hundreds of Waystones, and each Waystone is in turn fed by tributaries, which are only sometimes smaller versions of the same design. There are oghams," you nod to Tochter, "there are lornalim," to Cadaeth, "there are kurgans, and there are probably all sorts of other things.
IF they are not more capable at being a tributary than the ones we can produce ourselves, then the capstones on them could be repurposed for use in main waystones.

Edit: eshin'd. quoted and bolded the exact same parts too lol
 
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There are probably a couple, but there are not very many total wizards, and definitionally the ones willing to cast tale of metal and breach the Unknown willy-nilly on every weird rock of dubious provenance are going to burn out fast
Permission to learn it also requires working six months in the magical insane asylum. So you don't learn it on a whim, and you have ample awareness what it does when used wrong. You can probably find one or two reckless enough, or at least enough to be talked into stupid things, but that's both morally reprehensible and liable to get you a reputation. The golds don't appreciate their wizards going mad either.
 
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Permission to learn it also requires working six months in the magical insane asylum. So you don't learn it on a whim, and you have ample awareness what it does when used wrong. You can probably find one or two reckless enough, or at least enough to be talked into stupid things, but that's both morally reprehensible and liable to get you a reputation. The golds don't appreciate their wizards going made either.
I was going to say it'd go to the top of their "if you really must use Tale of Metal on something" list, but they probably don't even keep one.

It's a shame it's so risky; aside from being able to make more Waystone Gold, the caster would get to see Titans at work in their heyday! That'd make for an interesting paper, all on its own.
 
I was going to say it'd go to the top of their "if you really must use Tale of Metal on something" list, but they probably don't even keep one.

It's a shame it's so risky; aside from being able to make more Waystone Gold, the caster would get to see Titans at work in their heyday! That'd make for an interesting paper, all on its own.
It's also a matter of risk vs reward. If it was "either we figure this out, or the world drowns in daemons", the Golds would be ready to chance it, even at bad odds. They'd probably even be willing try multiple times with variations of the spell. Hell, if it was "either we figure this out or we'll never built more waystones", you could probably get someone willing to risk it, maybe after some brainstorming for safety features. But it's neither of those. It's "we spent six months on it, and while we figured out several viable alternatives, we've only got a few promising hints for this one, so please immerse you're brain meats in ancient history so I can satisfy my curiosity sooner".

So, that description is a little overblown, but not by much. Given alternatives exist, risking someones life for it is frankly unnecessary even if we never learn to reproduce it. But six months of trying a bigger related topic without a solution doesn't mean this one is unsolvable. Just leave it for the metal nerds, be they dwarf, elf or human, and give them a decade or two. Maybe they'll find something. Maybe one of the humans will get impatient and try the soft-boil-your-brains spell. Maybe it'll even work, once again proving that humanity has earned the right to stand should to shoulder with the elder races with reckless insanity and disregard for good sense. Or it won't, proving once again that humanity has earned the right to stand shoulder to shoulder with the elder races by being entirely too numerous and able to shrug off casualties.
 
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If we had a piece we could be reasonably sure was sourced directly from the Sky-Titans, I'd consider raising the question to be worthwhile. Johann came out of his shot tower investigations just fine, and if we could verify to a reasonable degree of certainty that any given piece wasn't part of the Waystone network or otherwise tainted, the worst he'd be in for ought to be a weird forging process, which Johann is used to, trained for, and expecting.

We do not, and acquiring such a piece of metal would involve traveling to Cathay, because I don't see us or Johann accepting the risks involved without directly participating in collecting the sample to ensure its provenance. I personally wouldn't mind the prospect of making such a trip at some point once our current projects are either done or at a good point to put them on hold while waiting for the results of said trip, but it's by no means an immediate prospect. (And Panoramia might introduce a complication there; I'm not sure how interested she'd be in coming along, and not seeing our girlfriend for multiple years should definitely factor into our decisionmaking.)
 
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It says it's not magnetic, by which I'd assume the mean not noticably ferromagnetic.
Not some magical anti-magnet or something.

There are plenty of metals most people would refer to as not magnetic.
"Magnetic" might even just be a metaphor here. The bars pull less on the winds than the pyramid does, which is being described as being less magnetic to them. I don't think actual magnetism is even involved.

Though there is something that's the opposite of a ferromagnet, not just nonmagnetic. It's imaginatively called an antIferromagnet, Antiferromagnetism - Wikipedia. It's what you get when all the little magnetic moments in a material line up in opposite directions instead of the same direction like in a regular magnet, so you get a highly ordered structure with zero net magnetism.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I might have actually found a legitimate use case for mapping Nehekhara. Sure, no amount of countermeasures we could gain would help us if Nagash got that level of access to our network. However, that doesn't make said countermeasures useless. It's a whole lot easier to do something a second time than it is the first.

An episode of MASH actually explained this fairly well. For context, a military surgeon is sick and tired of seeing their patients with renal damage dying before they could be transported to the one hospital in Asia with a dialysis machine (although they call it a kidney machine instead). Quote courtesy of IMDB.
A War For All Seasons said:
Capt. Benjamin Franklin 'Hawkeye' Pierce: Let me ask you something. How much do you know about building a kidney machine?
Capt. B.J. Hunnicutt: Absolutely nothing.
Capt. Benjamin Franklin 'Hawkeye' Pierce: Neither do I. So how do we know we can't make one?
Capt. B.J. Hunnicutt: Are you crazy? When Dr. Kolff invented it, he was at a university. He had facilities. He had funding. He had a research team.
Capt. Benjamin Franklin 'Hawkeye' Pierce: Yeah, but we got something he didn't have. We got Dr. Kolff to copy from. Follow me and bring your library card.
Notably, by the end of the episode, they do manage to Macgyver one up, with a little help from the Sear's catalog and a friend with a connection to a Toledo hotdog restaurant (they needed plastic tubing).

Of course, Nagash's methodology can't be found in your local library. Still, if we can reverse-engineer it from the current state of the network, then perhaps some other bad actor can as well. At the very least, I want to be able give a reassuring answer if we are asked by some less-than-trusting VIP, be it an Arch Lector, Imperial nobleman, or Asur diplomat why we think that what happened in Nehekhara won't happen here.
 
At the very least, I want to be able give a reassuring answer if we are asked by some less-than-trusting VIP, be it an Arch Lector, Imperial nobleman, or Asur diplomat why we think that what happened in Nehekhara won't happen here.
"If you want me to guarantee that Nagash himself couldn't subvert the project's works given direct access, I'm going to need significantly more funding."
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I might have actually found a legitimate use case for mapping Nehekhara. Sure, no amount of countermeasures we could gain would help us if Nagash got that level of access to our network. However, that doesn't make said countermeasures useless. It's a whole lot easier to do something a second time than it is the first.

An episode of MASH actually explained this fairly well. For context, a military surgeon is sick and tired of seeing their patients with renal damage dying before they could be transported to the one hospital in Asia with a dialysis machine (although they call it a kidney machine instead). Quote courtesy of IMDB.

Notably, by the end of the episode, they do manage to Macgyver one up, with a little help from the Sear's catalog and a friend with a connection to a Toledo hotdog restaurant (they needed plastic tubing).

Of course, Nagash's methodology can't be found in your local library. Still, if we can reverse-engineer it from the current state of the network, then perhaps some other bad actor can as well. At the very least, I want to be able give a reassuring answer if we are asked by some less-than-trusting VIP, be it an Arch Lector, Imperial nobleman, or Asur diplomat why we think that what happened in Nehekhara won't happen here.
That's kinda what we're doing with the Waystones, Sears catalogue and all. Although I guess the average Runelord wouldn't appreciate their craft being associated with a hotdog stand XD

But yeah, absolutely with you, countermeasures aren't useless. Even if the conclusion ends up being 'the best countermeasure is a sword to the ne'erdoell's face' that's not worthless in my eyes.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I might have actually found a legitimate use case for mapping Nehekhara. Sure, no amount of countermeasures we could gain would help us if Nagash got that level of access to our network. However, that doesn't make said countermeasures useless. It's a whole lot easier to do something a second time than it is the first.

An episode of MASH actually explained this fairly well. For context, a military surgeon is sick and tired of seeing their patients with renal damage dying before they could be transported to the one hospital in Asia with a dialysis machine (although they call it a kidney machine instead). Quote courtesy of IMDB.

Notably, by the end of the episode, they do manage to Macgyver one up, with a little help from the Sear's catalog and a friend with a connection to a Toledo hotdog restaurant (they needed plastic tubing).

Of course, Nagash's methodology can't be found in your local library. Still, if we can reverse-engineer it from the current state of the network, then perhaps some other bad actor can as well. At the very least, I want to be able give a reassuring answer if we are asked by some less-than-trusting VIP, be it an Arch Lector, Imperial nobleman, or Asur diplomat why we think that what happened in Nehekhara won't happen here.

On the flip side, if we map Nehekhara, we might find ourselves in a position to add 'fix Nehekhara' to our stretch goals. For example, through a combination of Dwarven sanitation knowhow allowing the cleaning of the tarn that feeds the River Mortis, spirit wrangling/Baba Niedzwenka ridiculousness/Cadaeth ecoforming knowledge/etc to clean the river itself, and then whatever ridiculous waystone knowledge (or immortal Grey Lord metal nerd knowledge plus Johann) we end up with to bypass or fix the parts of the network involving the capstones of the pyramids...
 
I read that as the Apparition actually being in those places, but only visible to the target. Several Apparitions seem to be only visible to the person they're after. Now that you mention it, an Apparition that likes to physically get into all of the faceholes of the people in a specific area doesn't seem all that difficult to weaponize.

And it's described as darkness, or shadows, and I remember a certain shadow-based spell that we've had interesting successes with before, and that would be extremely nasty in this context.

Can we use Black Essence to deliver Burning Shadow, similar to the way the other spells transform their apparitions into crows and thorns and so on? I kind of hope we can't, because the idea is horrifying.


'Phase' is property that some forms of matter have - I haven't seen a good explainer of it, as we all just use it as part of talking about something else, for example, we might talk about Austenite as gamma-phase iron, or have a phase diagram like this one: Austenite - Wikipedia .

A 'Phase' in this contact is just referring to a specific crystalline structure (or amorphous, I guess, but in metallic contexts it's basically always crystalline.) As the diagrams show, there are a lot more of these to even "simple" materials like steel than most people realize, and a large amount of modern metallurgy is discovering new phases, characterizing those phases, and finding ways to get those phases reliably in the quantities desired. This often, though not always, takes the form of complicated heating/forging/cooling processes. It may also involve rolling or other forms of applied deformation, both at high temperatures and room temperature.
 
"If you want me to guarantee that Nagash himself couldn't subvert the project's works given direct access, I'm going to need significantly more funding."
All jokes aside, that's not what I meant. My concern is that a talented, but by no means Nagash level Dhar user takes a research trip to Nehekhara. For the sake of discussion, let's call him Helmut. He spends a few years figuring out how Nagash corrupted the Nehekharan network, Helmut then head to the Empire, and attempts to replicate it on our homemade network, unleashing massive amounts of destruction in the process.
 
On the flip side, if we map Nehekhara, we might find ourselves in a position to add 'fix Nehekhara' to our stretch goals. For example, through a combination of Dwarven sanitation knowhow allowing the cleaning of the tarn that feeds the River Mortis, spirit wrangling/Baba Niedzwenka ridiculousness/Cadaeth ecoforming knowledge/etc to clean the river itself, and then whatever ridiculous waystone knowledge (or immortal Grey Lord metal nerd knowledge plus Johann) we end up with to bypass or fix the parts of the network involving the capstones of the pyramids...
Bringing life back to the deserts of Nehekhara seems a bit too much of "not our problem" for the participants in the Waystone Project as it stands. However, if it was in exchange for some extremely valuable knowledge, that's a different matter.

If the pyramidions of Nehekhara are in fact made of Waystone Gold, then the Mortuary Cult had to have obtained the titanium-gold somehow. They couldn't have purchased it from the Sky-titans like the original Waystone Project did. Their realm fell to the Ogres over two hundred years before the rise of Nehekhara. Obtaining such secrets would certainly be expensive indeed, but undoing one of Nagash's greatest workings should cover it.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I might have actually found a legitimate use case for mapping Nehekhara. Sure, no amount of countermeasures we could gain would help us if Nagash got that level of access to our network. However, that doesn't make said countermeasures useless. It's a whole lot easier to do something a second time than it is the first.

An episode of MASH actually explained this fairly well. For context, a military surgeon is sick and tired of seeing their patients with renal damage dying before they could be transported to the one hospital in Asia with a dialysis machine (although they call it a kidney machine instead). Quote courtesy of IMDB.

Notably, by the end of the episode, they do manage to Macgyver one up, with a little help from the Sear's catalog and a friend with a connection to a Toledo hotdog restaurant (they needed plastic tubing).

Of course, Nagash's methodology can't be found in your local library. Still, if we can reverse-engineer it from the current state of the network, then perhaps some other bad actor can as well. At the very least, I want to be able give a reassuring answer if we are asked by some less-than-trusting VIP, be it an Arch Lector, Imperial nobleman, or Asur diplomat why we think that what happened in Nehekhara won't happen here.
All jokes aside, that's not what I meant. My concern is that a talented, but by no means Nagash level Dhar user takes a research trip to Nehekhara. For the sake of discussion, let's call him Helmut. He spends a few years figuring out how Nagash corrupted the Nehekharan network, Helmut then head to the Empire, and attempts to replicate it on our homemade network, unleashing massive amounts of destruction in the process.
I would definitely like to map out Nehekhara and learn what we can from that at some point in the future after we actually learn High Nehekharan, but I feel like we should temper our expectations. A Waystones mapping action should yield just that: a map of the place's nexus, or lack thereof.

If we go ahead with rivers-based leylines, a necromancer would only be able to inflict damage to rivers available to them, and the place you'd most expect to find necromancers in the Old World is the one that is currently watched by the Empire, a good number of Battle Wizards, and the Council of Manhorak. Like, yes, caution should absolutely should be taken, vampires absolutely could come back and start claiming territory back or suborning people, but at that point the bigger problem is the vampires themselves.
 
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I would definitely like to map out Nehekhara and learn what we can from that at some point in the future after we actually learn High Nehekharan, but I feel like we should temper our expectations. A Waystones mapping action should yield just that: a map of the place's nexus, or lack thereof.

If we go ahead with rivers-based leylines, a necromancer would only be able to inflict damage to rivers available to them, and the place you'd most expect to find necromancers in the Old World is the one that is currently watched by the Empire, a good number of Battle Wizards, and the Council of Manhorak. Like, yes, caution should absolutely should be taken, vampires absolutely could come back and start claiming territory back or suborning people, but at that point the bigger problem is the vampires themselves.
Dhar usage, unfortunately, isn't exclusive to the necromantic set. I was actually thinking more along the lines of the followers of Chaos myself. Using a mystical ritual to metaphysically poison a river belonging to a major Order power seems right up Tzeentch's alley, and perhaps Nurgle's as well. This is especially true if it's possible to make the Dhar user aligned to a particular member of the Four, or simply Chaos Undivided. The right cult in the wrong place could do a serious amount of damage.
 
A bunch of people have commented that we're tearing through Waystone construction; we're only four turns into the Waystone project proper (three turns that we've been able to do real team research; the first turn was just Lay the Foundations), and we've already got workable solutions for three of the four parts of an Elven waystone (though the river leyline approaches we identified still need to be prototyped). That implies that, assuming the Foundation component goes as smoothly as the others, we could in theory have our first Elven waystone in just three more turns (T42 study Foundation, T43 prototype a foundation approach, T44 take the Build an Elven Waystone action (assuming we also take the prototype actions for river leylines on T42 or T43)). While we shouldn't count our chickens before they're hatched -- the Foundation has been implied several times to be the most magically challenging component and so I think it's very possible that we'll stumble there and need to adjust our approach -- it's still cool as hell that an end point most people would have thought impossible is just over the horizon.

But, like, let's not forget that we have goals beyond just the building of Waystones. The Waystone network is of interest, or rather I should say networks. We've only studied one Nexus so far, and it resulted in us discovering a site of key strategic importance to the Empire; there are a bunch more Nexuses we can investigate. We haven't studied any of the other networks at all, and let's not forget that thanks to Borek, Mathilde knows IC (as opposed to just we the questers knowing OOC) that the Karaz Ankor is using the Waystone juice for something important. After the Council of Kings, Belegar probably has a good idea what that something is -- it's no great logical leap from "magical flows to Karaz-a-Karak have grown in magnitude as a result of reclamations" and "Karaz-a-Karak has just reactivated an ancient magical wonder of the Ancestor Gods" to "the one is responsible for the other."

I don't know what the best order for doing things in is -- whether we want to rush to prototype a Waystone ASAP and then do investigations of Nexuses/the Waystone Network/other networks or whether we want to take some of the other investigation actions along the way so that they can inform our Waystone R&D -- but I do want us to keep in mind that the parts of the Waystone project that aren't pure focus on Waystone creation exist and are valuable, not just in a "check all the boxes" way (I don't mean to suggest that we should take literally every possible Waystone action before we call the project done, I am definitely fine calling it quits well before we hit that point) but in ways that actively further our IC goals, like "make the Empire less terrible" and "help pull the Karaz Ankor out of its crisis of pessimism." That's stuff that would be really awesome to do for its own sake, not just for obsessive completionism.
 
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Using a mystical ritual to metaphysically poison a river belonging to a major Order power seems right up Tzeentch's alley, and perhaps Nurgle's as well.
I mean, Nurgle would be up for targeting the Empire's rivers *anyways* just to spread plague. It being a leyline doesn't make it a whole new threat. And our dhar under the river mechanism might actually pull any dhar injected into the river under it and make it *safer* than before. Since people in the empire aren't constantly dying of poisoned rivers and wells, presumably some combination of factors is acting against that possibility.
On the flip side, if we map Nehekhara, we might find ourselves in a position to add 'fix Nehekhara' to our stretch goals. For example, through a combination of Dwarven sanitation knowhow allowing the cleaning of the tarn that feeds the River Mortis, spirit wrangling/Baba Niedzwenka ridiculousness/Cadaeth ecoforming knowledge/etc to clean the river itself, and then whatever ridiculous waystone knowledge (or immortal Grey Lord metal nerd knowledge plus Johann) we end up with to bypass or fix the parts of the network involving the capstones of the pyramids...
I wonder how the Tomb Kings would react to the idea? If I remember right, Settra was pretty pissed about waking up a corpse in a wasteland instead of an immortal in a paradise. He might be interested in a proposal to restore his kingdom. Though their whole, army of the dead thing might be dependant on the corrupted network to maintain the undeath for all of them? I dunno.
 
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