Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[T_of_A]

I've been thinking about the whole "the Runes of Valaya were running out of power" problem. I've been wondering what the High King could even do to fix the problem.

• Presumably, the fact that the problem existed suggests that the Dawi cannot fix it.
• But we also know that point-to-point line-of-sight transmission of magical energy is "a well-trod path" for the elves (Sarvoi says so). "Please gather magic from a wider area and toss it within the area of effect of the Karak Waystones" seems expensive and unreliable, but technically feasible for elves backed with Dawi wealth.
• This suggests that even knowing his entire nation was hurtling towards medium-term extinction, the High King couldn't bring himself to go ask the Elves for help again. The man is insanely wealthy and he knows he's dead anyway, so "reveal a vulnerability to elves by promising them an insane amount of treasure if they send Teclis over again to improve our Waystones" seems a decent last-ditch idea to me. Clearly he disagreed.
• Mathilde knew nothing about this despite being considered the Colleges' top woman for Dwarf stuff. This suggests that the High King did not ask the humans if the elves left them any lore that could help. It seems he was hiding this problem not only from the Dawi and their current foes, but also from their allies.

Apart from triggering my climate change anger, what's the point of this line of reasoning? The point is that something(s) stopped the High King from trying to kickstart the Waystone Project back before we were even born. Now that we're trying to organise our own Waystone project and may want Dwarf help for the actual rollout once it's done, it seems useful for us to figure out what the problem could be before we run face-first into it.

 

[Alliterate]

You're over-analysing, I think. Thorgrim is oathbound not to reveal any of the deep secrets of the Throne, except to his successor.

So being a Dawi, he couldn't. Still can't.

 

[K von Carstein]

But we also know that point-to-point line-of-sight transmission of magical energy is "a well-trod path" for the elves (Sarvoi says so). "Please gather magic from a wider area and toss it within the area of effect of the Karak Waystones" seems expensive and unreliable, but technically feasible for elves backed with Dawi wealth.

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Thorgrim might simply not know that elves can do so. His oath also prevented him for telling anyone about it.

Also, the karaks already absorb the Winds around them, presumably on a large area given their size. Which mean that you would need a lot of elves to do the necessary procedures. Like, a lot.

The Asurs and the Eonirs are already stretched thin for manpower and are fairly rich themselves, just wealth isn't enough an incentive to give a massive military advantage to your geopolitical rivals.

Those mages would also have to work in areas full of orcs, skavens and other dangers and would need another lot of manpower to not be immediately murdered. Dwarfs and elves have more than enough wealth, but if they have one thing in common it's their lack of bodies to throw at problems.

Édit: and all the infrastructure necessary for it would have to be protected from orcs and skavens, so that yet more manpower and ressources needed to build the necessary fortifications and man them.

 

[Alratan]

You're over-analysing, I think. Throgrim is oathbound not to reveal any of the deep secrets of the Throne, except to his successor.

So being a Dawi, he couldn't. Still can't.

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Clearly we need High King Mathilde of the Karaz Ankor to solve this problem.

Also, the karaks already absorb the Winds around them, presumably on a large area given their size. Which mean that you would need a lot of elves to do the necessary procedures. Like, a lot.
The Asurs and the Eonirs are already stretched thin for manpower and are fairly rich themselves, just wealth isn't enough an incentive to give a massive military advantage to your geopolitical rivals.
Those mages would also have to work in areas full of orcs, skavens and other dangers and would need another lot of manpower to not be immediately murdered. Dwarfs and elves have more than enough wealth, but if they have one thing in common it's their lack of bodies to throw at problems.

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What he's actually need is the Eonir to plant their Waytrees around the Karaks and link them to the Karak Waystones, and he may not have known they could do that.

The dwarves could afford the precious metals.

 

[Alliterate]

What he needed to do, which was both knowable and within his capability, was to go all-in on supporting Belegar's reclamation.

 

[K von Carstein]

What he's actually need is the Eonir to plant their Waytrees around the Karaks and link them to the Karak Waystones, and he may not have known they could do that.

The dwarves could afford the precious metals.

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That would solve some of the problem, but there would still be a need to protect those trees.

What he needed, that was both knowable and within his capability, was to go all-in supporting Belegar's reclamation.

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Yeah, exactly. Especially once we took the first pikes.

 

[T_of_A]

Thorgrim might simply not know that elves can do so. His oath also prevented him for telling anyone about it.

Also, the karaks already absorb the Winds around them, presumably on a large area given their size. Which mean that you would need a lot of elves to do the necessary procedures. Like, a lot.

The Asurs and the Eonirs are already stretched thin for manpower and are fairly rich themselves, just wealth isn't enough an incentive to give a massive military advantage to your geopolitical rivals.

Those mages would also have to work in areas full of orcs, skavens and other dangers and would need another lot of manpower to not be immediately murdered. Dwarfs and elves have more than enough wealth, but if they have one thing in common it's their lack of bodies to throw at problems.

Édit: and all the infrastructure necessary for it would have to be protected from orcs and skavens, so that yet more manpower and ressources needed to build the necessary fortifications and man them.

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Step 1: "Hey elgi, I need more magical energy poured into my Karaks. No I will not explain why"
Step 2: "Hey humans, thanks for the military help in XXX. As a thank you, we're building stuff in your lands to weaken storms of magic. You're welcome."

(This does require a willingness to even ask in the first place, which seems to be the problem. "Guarding them would be expensive" is IMO a non-issue, because the alternative is literal extinction so it's not like the poor man has a choice).

 

[Alliterate]

The salient point relevant to your concerns for our endeavours is that he nigh-certainly didn't try to do anything like the Waystone Project, only in part because he wouldn't (couldn't) ask or tell anyone.

It's a problem for us to the extent that answers about the control and technical functioning of the Dwarven network flow will most likely also be so limited.

 

[K von Carstein]

"Guarding them would be expensive" is IMO a non-issue, because the alternative is literal extinction so it's not like the poor man has a choice).

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I didn't mean expensive in wealth, I meant expensive in manpower. Neither the Asurs nor the Dawi have enough soldiers to patrol such a large and dangerous area while also defending themselves from other attacks.

 

[Tobtorp]

Step 1: "Hey elgi, I need more magical energy poured into my Karaks. No I will not explain why"
Step 2: "Hey humans, thanks for the military help in XXX. As a thank you, we're building stuff in your lands to weaken storms of magic. You're welcome."

(This does require a willingness to even ask in the first place, which seems to be the problem. "Guarding them would be expensive" is IMO a non-issue, because the alternative is literal extinction so it's not like the poor man has a choice).

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"Hey dwarfy, sure thing, we do it for that nifty crown you got from us. Just bring it next time." And the discussion is over.

 

[pucflek]

What he needed to do, which was both knowable and within his capability, was to go all-in on supporting Belegar's reclamation.

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From his point it absolutely wasn't. It was just one more grudgestriking expedition, there was no indication whatsoever that reclaiming it would lead to reconnection of the Waystones.

You can hate Thorgrim because he wronged us, but his decision was not, per say, wrong with his actionable information.

The salient point relevant to your concerns for our endeavours is that he nigh-certainly didn't try to do anything like the Waystone Project, only in part because he wouldn't (couldn't) ask or tell anyone.

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That entirely omits that Waystones are generally thought to be long lost knowledge people could not recover in past five millenia that was developed with Elgi and it took one Dwarf King that is close to declaring Slayer Oath and radical as fuck to authorize research into it.

This all boils down into the "Well what if dwarfs were not hidebound oafs and actually did this super easy X". Well if they weren't that, Karaz Ankor would've fallen before Sigmar was ever born.

 

[Droman]

The most straightforward translation is thag-rak-i, treacherous rat people. Another likely possibility is thag-gor-rak-i, treacherous rat beast people, explicitly labelling them a type of Beastman. Another possibility is thag-or-rak-i, rat people that kill me with treachery, but I'm not entirely sold on that because 'thaggutraki' or 'thaganoraki' would work better for that meaning.

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Boney, do you think the Dwarfs and Elves have languages with multiple dialects or is it all the same language just accented differently? Because that could be a part of the deal, especially with Holds that are far divided in communication and distance, or with the southern Elven colonies that only get a visit once every decade.

 

[mathymancer]

There are many logical reasons why Thorgrim didn't try some sort of desperate ploy to save his kingdom, but I think that this discussion is missing a big piece, namely Thorgrim's psychological state. Thorgrim was depressed. When we saw his thoughts in 'A Tide Turns', Thorgrim wanted to die. That kind of depression doesn't inspire people to look for clever solutions to their problems.

 

[Valmond]

The thread does have a habit of trying to find that one weird trick to fix all the worlds ills at times.
There probably are reasons why Karaz Ankor has not just gone and fixed everything forever in the past couple thousand years.
Inertia, politics, lack of resources, not actually knowing how, deep psychological scars both personal and national...

 

[Tobtorp]

Personally i think thorgrim thought belegars expedition didn't have great chances to succeed, so why waste additional resources on something that not gonna work anyway (in his mind.) And if reconquering the karak would have also reconnected the waystones is another question again.

 

[Alliterate]

From his point it absolutely wasn't. It was just one more grudgestriking expedition, there was no indication whatsoever that reclaiming it would lead to reconnection of the Waystones.

You can hate Thorgrim because he wronged us, but his decision was not, per say, wrong with his actionable information.

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It was, though. He knew that Karaks falling- like Vlag- meant them going offline. He had the readout. That was the problem.

And the only, slim, hope of getting them back online was to have them back under Dawi control again. That was an actionable decision in face of extinction. For all he knew, they'd auto-reconnect when the Peaks were retaken. Oh, right.
And there was Belegar with a force of tens of thousands.

But, yeah. He was indeed depressed and fatalistic, too.

 

[DragonParadox]

You're over-analysing, I think. Thorgrim is oathbound not to reveal any of the deep secrets of the Throne, except to his successor.

So being a Dawi, he couldn't. Still can't.

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The proper word is 'wouldn't' I think, it's a cultural thing not a physical impediment, he valued his honor more than the survival of his people. That it is the expected level of self-sabotage for a dwarf does not make it not self sabotage.

 

[Codex]

The proper word is 'wouldn't' I think, it's a cultural thing not a physical impediment, he valued his honor more than the survival of his people. That is is the expected level of self-sabotage for a dwarf does not make it not self sabotage.

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There's a huge difference between telling your secrets to an ally who might be able to solve your problem, and telling your secrets and asking for the help of a polity that you do not trust and which you had several centuries of Empire breaking war against.

Maybe Thorgrim could be convinced to ask for the help of the Empire. They have been steadfast allies of the Dwarves for 2500 years. Not telling the secrets of the Throne to the Elves isn't an unreasonable thing particularly unique to the Dwarves.

 

[allmightytoaster]

It is still wild to me that the entire Karaz Ankor was, in a roundabout way, saved from a slow death by one old soldier in bumfuck Stirland saying "No, we won't behave like animals anymore".

 

[T_of_A]

The thread does have a habit of trying to find that one weird trick to fix all the worlds ills at times.
There probably are reasons why Karaz Ankor has not just gone and fixed everything forever in the past couple thousand years.
Inertia, politics, lack of resources, not actually knowing how, deep psychological scars both personal and national...

Click to shrink...

Hence why my question was "why did he not do this? Is there an obstacle we should be on the lookout for?"

 

[DragonParadox]

There's a huge difference between telling your secrets to an ally who might be able to solve your problem, and telling your secrets and asking for the help of a polity that you do not trust and which you had several centuries of Empire breaking war against.

Maybe Thorgrim could be convinced to ask for the help of the Empire. They have been steadfast allies of the Dwarves for 2500 years. Not telling the secrets of the Throne to the Elves isn't an unreasonable thing particularly unique to the Dwarves.

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It's not just that he did not tell them to the elves, it is that he did not tell anyone. He is vastly and absurdly wealthy by everyone's standards, he could have tried to buy magical expertise, he could have used the foundation of the colleges to get closer to them and at least get another perspective on them. Doing nothing is inherently worse than doing something and failing yet he chose the former. One can come up with all sorts of reasons why he kept the secret from this person or that person, but there is very little reason to keep it from everyone that might have helped expect 'death before dishonor' which is morally wrong and intellectually bankrupt for a leader.

 

[shepsquared]

It was, though. He knew that Karaks falling- like Vlag- meant them going offline. He had the readout. That was the problem.

And the only, slim, hope of getting them back online was to have them back under Dawi control again. That was an actionable decision in face of extinction. For all he knew, they'd auto-reconnect when the Peaks were retaken. Oh, right.
And there was Belegar with a force of tens of thousands.

But, yeah. He was indeed depressed and fatalistic, too.

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None of the Karaks had ever been retaken though. Not Karak Ungor, not Karak Eight Peaks, not Karak Azgal, none of them. Heck, he found the Norscan Dwarves and became king on that hope, only for them to get wiped out as well. Why should he have expected Belegar to do any better than his father or grandfather did?

 

[Codex]

None of the Karaks had ever been retaken though. Not Karak Ungor, not Karak Eight Peaks, not Karak Azgal, none of them. Heck, he found the Norscan Dwarves and became king on that hope, only for them to get wiped out as well. Why should he have expected Belegar to do any better than his father or grandfather did?

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Azgal was retaken for a while. Most of its wealth was plundered and the Dragon (Smaug) was killed, but eventually it was abandoned and taken over by Night Goblins.

 

[pucflek]

And the only, slim, hope of getting them back online was to have them back under Dawi control again. That was an actionable decision in face of extinction. For all he knew, they'd auto-reconnect when the Peaks were retaken. Oh, right.

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Thats... a lot to gamble on something that he could not have known. Might suspect is not something you gamble your ever dwindling forces on. Forces that might still easily lose even if you do send them.

For all he knew, they'd auto-reconnect when the Peaks were retaken. Oh, right.

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Its nice judging someones decisions in the past when you have confirmation bias, and information that the man simply did not possess.

 

[Alliterate]

Thats... a lot to gamble on something that he could not have known.

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Not a lot in the face of certain extinction, I'd contend.
I'm not hating on Thorgrim. Just saying he was a poor leader to his people.
And then, even after we retook three Peaks and a Citadel, still near nothing.