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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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For what it's worth, I do very much expect that any battle magic we roll on our own will probably be marginally less effective than any basically equivalent battle magic we grab out of the armory, just because there have probably been a lot more wizard-hours put into selecting, improving, fine-tuning those than the ones we make.

That's most only an issue if what we want out of a battle magic spell is direct damage or simple debuffs, and it may not be enough to outweigh the major buffs we get to casting mist spells, but I think it should be considered.
 
Saidoro said:
For what it's worth, I do very much expect that any battle magic we roll on our own will probably be marginally less effective than any basically equivalent battle magic we grab out of the armory, just because there have probably been a lot more wizard-hours put into selecting, improving, fine-tuning those than the ones we make.

That's most only an issue if what we want out of a battle magic spell is direct damage or simple debuffs, and it may not be enough to outweigh the major buffs we get to casting mist spells, but I think it should be considered.
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Mathilde is a 29 learning, 9 magic Lady Magister. I do not believe that any battle magic spell we create will be inferior by default. I concede that there is a risk of it turning out worse, simply because that's how dice rolls work, but there is a significant chance of it being equal or better.

We also get various situational bonuses to spell creation: +5 (Library: Ulgu), +20 (Room of Dusk and Dawn), +20*2 (Gambler). We're rolling with a minimum of 34 on most dice rolls, and potentially 50+ many others. Hell, we even got a +10 (leaning from mistakes) modifier at one point when making Rite of Way.

And since I've just reviewed our creation of Rite of Way, the hardest part of that was developing a way for the fog to act as a medium for the spell—something that Mathilde eventually developed. A fog based death spell would most likely use that same process. We would be repurposing a spell we already know, rather than starting from scratch. We'd pretty much just be gutting out the skywalk enchantment and replacing it with a burning shadows, or a throttling, or even a roiling shadows if we're feeling fancy.

And okay, maybe the dice go against us, or maybe the ulgu fog cloud doesn't like being paired with a destructive spell, or something else happens—but I still think we have damn good odds to make a battle magic spell that is not only effective, but also thematic and safe to cast.
 
A big motivation behind developing new spells is the desire to utilize the warrior of the fog trait. I think it might be cool to investigate the feasibility of making an enemy be lost in the fog of war so to speak. A few different options to take it that fit vaguely within existing ulgu effects. It could be literally losing them by say moving them physically or it could be making them be forgotten. Maybe it's a bit too large of a stretch of the trait, but I feel like we could get more juice out of it with some effort.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Ah yes, the eternal argument of "known variable good, unknown variable bad". Even if we assume that "Mathilde's Death Fog" is less damaging than Pit of Shades, the fact is that if you gather enough Ulgu in one place then no matter what the spell is, a lot of people are going to die, and thanks to our staff one of those people won't be us as long as it is a mist based spell.

As a general rule, Battle Magic is never safe to cast, but the Staff of Mistery's specific rule of "downgrading" the difficulty of spells trumps that, and I don't think it's a good idea to disregard that just because it might be less deadly.
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I mean, I do get your point, but Pit of Shades is literally "avoid this or die". Like, it's not really possible to scale past that.
 
Candesce said:
But I'm not going to vote to go study already-existing battle magic at the Colleges. I simply don't care. We have better things to do than be battlefield artillery.
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The spells are an expression of existing principles and i am not sure how we are to study the principles without really looking into it.

Pit of Shades is supposedly a controlled failed attempt at connecting/creating a Liminal realm by force for example, so understanding it and how exactly it goes wrong could offer valuable insights. Besides, i don't exactly want to learn Pit of Shades to be a battlefield artillery except when strictly necessary. I just think it has value in killing extremely tough targets in sabotage/assassination scenarios.
 
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Tasoli said:
Like sure but I have to ask. We saw bunch of people throw down with BM in the Magister Patriarch thunderdome. What makes us so much lesser that we can't do what they do?
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They're leveraging their unique capabilities:
SuperSonicSound said:
Out of interest do Elite battle wizards have special traits to make them less likely to insta-gib themselves or is that asking for the curtain to be pulled back to much?
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Boney said:
Some might have traits, others masteries, others still would have just had good luck.
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The sorts of wizards who survive and thrive long enough to graduate to Lord/Lady Magister in order to gain the right to challenge Dragomas, and who are willing to throw down with Battle Magic, are overwhelmingly going to be the ones who have picked up various things that make Battle Magic safer to cast. For us, that's our staff. Wizards who became Battle Wizards at the same time Mathilde became a Journeywoman and then followed that track probably have traits from their education and masteries from their spell usage. Melkoth, for instance, almost certainly has the ability to throw his signature spell around relatively casually, and Dragomas wouldn't pull the "turn into a dragon" trick so often if he weren't capable of doing so relatively safely.

We're not lesser. Our unique capability is different. If we want Mathilde to throw down with Battle Magic on the regular and survive, we should leverage that unique capability.

(Personally I like the idea @Alratan has of collaring some Apparitions and then incorporating them into a horrifying battlefield death zone, but that's a long-term goal, both in quest time and IRL, since it represents an outlay of, conservatively, 6 AP.)
 
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picklepikkl said:
The sorts of wizards who survive and thrive long enough to graduate to Lord/Lady Magister in order to gain the right to challenge Algard, and who are willing to throw down with Battle Magic, are overwhelmingly going to be the ones who have picked up various things that make Battle Magic safer to cast. For us, that's our staff. Wizards who became Battle Wizards at the same time Mathilde became a Journeywoman and then followed that track probably have traits from their education and masteries from their spell usage. Melkoth, for instance, almost certainly has the ability to throw his signature spell around relatively casually, and Algard wouldn't pull the "turn into a dragon" trick so often if he weren't capable of doing so relatively safely.
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You mean Dragomas, right? Pretty sure turning into a dragon isn't in the Grey spellbook.
 
picklepikkl said:
For us, that's our staff.
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Yeah we are not picking more tricks without at least learning and using BM. Which is even more reason to learn them to see if we can figure out ways to make them safer. For all we know there are traits and masteries just waiting for us to use BM to get and make them safer.
 
Honestly, I would like to learn Pit of Shades/Penumbral Pendulum from Algard.
The liminal realms sound really cool to me and I would like to see more of that.

And having some spells that can turn the tide of battle would also help.
 
HanChenYou said:
Isn't Dragonflask an enchantment of a Bright Wizard battle magic spell?
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As I recall, it is in fact. That said it's based on Fireball, which is one of the weakest battle magic spells available...possibly the absolute weakest in terms of direct damage spells. The Ulgu battle magic spells being discussed are both a lot more powerful.

For comparison, in WHFB 8th Ed., Fireball is 1d6 Str 4 hits...which is decent (it can also be boosted to 2d6 hits, though I don't know if that applies to the Dragonflask). Penumbral Pendulum, meanwhile, does a Str 10 hit inflicting d3 Wounds to every individual thing in a line, and Pit of Shades insta-kills anything that falls into it (there's an initiative check to avoid that fate...but that's the only defense possible).

Both those are a lot more tricky to cast than Fireball is, of course.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Mathilde is a 29 learning, 9 magic Lady Magister. I do not believe that any battle magic spell we create will be inferior by default. I concede that there is a risk of it turning out worse, simply because that's how dice rolls work, but there is a significant chance of it being equal or better.

We also get various situational bonuses to spell creation: +5 (Library: Ulgu), +20 (Room of Dusk and Dawn), +20*2 (Gambler). We're rolling with a minimum of 34 on most dice rolls, and potentially 50+ many others. Hell, we even got a +10 (leaning from mistakes) modifier at one point when making Rite of Way.

And since I've just reviewed our creation of Rite of Way, the hardest part of that was developing a way for the fog to act as a medium for the spell—something that Mathilde eventually developed. A fog based death spell would most likely use that same process. We would be repurposing a spell we already know, rather than starting from scratch. We'd pretty much just be gutting out the skywalk enchantment and replacing it with a burning shadows, or a throttling, or even a roiling shadows if we're feeling fancy.

And okay, maybe the dice go against us, or maybe the ulgu fog cloud doesn't like being paired with a destructive spell, or something else happens—but I still think we have damn good odds to make a battle magic spell that is not only effective, but also thematic and safe to cast.
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Yes, and the existing battle spells were made with whatever bonuses one gets for having dozens of lord magisters and hundreds of battle mages use and potentially incrementally improve on them for centuries. (Plus whatever the elves did before that.) Institutional knowledge is a big deal.
 
picklepikkl said:
(Personally I like the idea @Alratan has of collaring some Apparitions and then incorporating them into a horrifying battlefield death zone, but that's a long-term goal, both in quest time and IRL, since it represents an outlay of, conservatively, 6 AP.)
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[:V] Field test
Test her ingenuity and necessary survival skills while working out the kinks in your new horrifying battlefield death fog spell.
 
I'd be interested in a sub-battle magic spell to let someone take on the appearance of the Dämmerlichtreiter. Obviously, the idea would be to follow up with an enchanted item.

Spell: The Dämmerlichtreiter Rides Forth
Relevant Spells: Shadowsteed (Mastery - Shadowrider), Dread Aspect (Mastery - Roiling Shadows)
Relevant Traits: Master Swordswoman, Knight
Relevant Apparition: Rider in Red

The Dämmerlichtreiter stalks the land once again; striking down the cruel and evil beings that dare oppose her. Casting this spell transforms the caster as the shadows envelop them and mist obscures their form. They take on the facade of the Dämmerlichtreiter and gain a portion of her abilities in battle. Her enemies shall know the dread of the Dämmerlichtreiter's approach once again.

Essentially a buff spell that allows the target to take on the guise of a terrifying mounted knight. I'm not sure if such a spell would actually provide any direct boost to martial prowess, but the fear of a horse and rider charging toward an enemy may make the difference in any case.

Roiling Shadows would be the example I'd go to for a more direct combat boost.

Edit: For the sake of explains my thinking on the traits.
Master Swordswoman: The fear created by recognising the skill of the opponent by their bearing and actions.
Knight: The fear and confusion built by fame and prestige as the legend of a warrior proceeds them and convinces the unprepared warrior that they have lost before the battle has begun.
 
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Alliterate said:
[:V] Field test
Test her ingenuity and necessary survival skills while working out the kinks in your new horrifying battlefield death fog spell.
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This reminds me we should talk to Thorek sometime about training multiple apprentices. Turn WebMat into a university internship system with dozens willing to risk their lives for a letter of recommendation.
 
I want to learn other BM spells, but for a specific reason: Boney said that magic is like muscle, and to develop it, you have to challenge yourself. Downgraded difficulty on Fog magic makes me think that it does not actually challenge Mathilde unless she overcasts it. As such, I think we should try and learn a BM spell which will help us get even more magically jacked.
 
I would not mind learning a bit more BM, but for practical purposes I'd honestly rather restrict that to the next easiest thing to learn: Steed of Shadows. It's useful, and given Mathilde's predisposition, I could see her maybe getting a Mastery out of it.
 
Glau said:
Or, you know, build off of that- a battle magic spell that wraps a unit in ulgu- and mindholes anyone who sees them as long as it is being channeled.
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I like this idea. Instead of trying to do damage with the fog, try to confuse/distract/disorient (mindhole to make targets forget orders in fog?)
Not inflicting damage, but inflicting chaos and confusion.
Some kind of fog of forgetfulness, misguiding miasma
 
Drood said:
I like this idea. Instead of trying to do damage with the fog, try to confuse/distract/disorient (mindhole to make targets forget orders in fog?)
Not inflicting damage, but inflicting chaos and confusion.
Some kind of fog of forgetfulness, misguiding miasma
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Even if we cannot make it confuse people, or do anything else extra, battle-magic scale fog production still seems like the sort of thing that could change the course of a battle. I imagine suddenly having your sight lines blocked would probably not do good things to an army's ability to fight.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
Even if we cannot make it confuse people, or do anything else extra, battle-magic scale fog production still seems like the sort of thing that could change the course of a battle. I imagine suddenly having your sight lines blocked would probably not do good things to an army's ability to fight.
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It's Sealord Aislinn's favorite tactic.
 
adaer said:
It's also kinda fun to have a lady magister who presumably has the reputation of being a massively destructive blunt instrument among the less informed wizards mainly developing logistical spells and complex meta-magic, like the array.

For people who actually know how Matty does things, namely "figure out how hard you can hit, then manipulate the situation to make sure it'll be sufficient and properly aimed" her focus on creating force multipliers makes perfect sense.
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The reason for that in-universe misunderstanding is, Mathilde is often blunt not because she is stupid or incapable of elegance or subterfuge, but because she is extremely practical and addicted to efficiency. Remember when her solution for the Magister test was to quickdraw?

A person like that would, naturally, be a good engineer. Also, hated by Tzeench.
 
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storryeater said:
The reason for that in-universe misunderstanding is, Mathilde is often blunt not because she is stupid or incapable of elegance or subterfuge, but because she is extremely practical and addicted to efficiency. Remember when her solution for the Magister test was to quickdraw?

A person like that would, naturally, be a good engineer. Also, hated by Tzeench.
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Tzeentch must be quite conflicted. On the one hand she causes so much change. On the other hand, what you said. Now I'm picturing a Tsundere Tzeentch.
 
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