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Ok, so one last plea for giving the money to Zhufbar.

I feel like having Zhurbar send a small army + a full team of elite miners and get nothing of the loot while the council gets every valuable for sending a single priest is the kind of injustice grudges are built on. Giving a fair pay for a service rendered is central to the dwarven mindset and there is no doubt that the dwarves did much much more than Ionel (who was one of the least crucial member of the team).

Now, the dwarves almost certainly will rationalize that either Karaz Akor owes a debt to Mathilde that they are repaying, that crossing grudges is payment in itself or that it's their duty to help Mathilde defeat an enemy of the dwarves. And all of that is true, of course.

But what is also true is that Mathilde (and K8P) are the real benefactors, not Karaz Ankor in general or Zhufbar in particular. We are basicly using Zhufbar for our own gain (and K8P's library) with incidental positive effect for Stirland and to a much lesser degree Zhufbar.

Paying Zhufbar just makes sense, it's not about them already having money. All dwarf holds are wealthy, they still ask for payment for services rendered and are very unhappy if left unpaid. Just look at how mad Belegar was for Thorgrimm "stealing" magic that he had no idea existed a minute beforehand and had no use for from "his" waystones. Sure, the council might need the money more, but it's a very undwarven way to pay your employees.

Since Mathilde has been declared a dwarf, she has as much of a duty to Karaz Ankor than any other dwarves so it doesn't make sense that she benefits materially from the expecition while other dwarves get nada.

And ultimately, it's much easier (and cheaper) to buy a gift for Ionel in our purchases round like with we did for Baba Brazinga than to do so for the Ironbreakers and the miners who helped us.

Not that I expect any kind of argument to budge trends this late in the discussion, but this post seems rather insightful overall.

As far as I can tell, the argument for the council is trusting Kasmir's opinion of these relative unknowns and hoping that the donation makes a difference for an organization that is just starting, while the argument against the dwarves is that although they did the most work by far they don't deserve and/or need the money because Zufbar is very rich already.

So, as a follow up question, is there info about the place that would let us know whether the workers in the expedition are actually wealthy themselves? Because I am thinking of working class people not getting paid because they.happen to come from a place with many super-rich residents and that leaves a bad aftertaste.
 
So, as a follow up question, is there info about the place that would let us know whether the workers in the expedition are actually wealthy themselves? Because I am thinking of working class people not getting paid because they.happen to come from a place with many super-rich residents and that leaves a bad aftertaste.
They are Ironbreakers. They literally wear arms that could beggar nobles just to own pieces of.

One retrieved Gromril plate was big enough deal that it got brought to the council meeting at K8P lol.

Either way, Dwarfs weren't considered not because they don't deserve gold, but because their hook to get here was to satisfy outstanding grudges and we have delivered that.

Grudges from that lot always need to be struck out the hard way since they can't be relied upon to properly die, so it'd be worth it for that alone before we even account for the possibility of recovering Dwarven treasures or fallen."
 
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So, as a follow up question, is there info about the place that would let us know whether the workers in the expedition are actually wealthy themselves? Because I am thinking of working class people not getting paid because they.happen to come from a place with many super-rich residents and that leaves a bad aftertaste.
Miners and Ironbreakers are highly valued positions. I wouldn't say Dwarf society doesn't have income inequality, but these types of people are some of the least likely workers to be underpaid.
 
They are Ironbreakers. They literally wear arms that could beggar nobles just to own pieces of.

One retrieved Gromril plate was big enough deal that it got brought to the council meeting at K8P lol.

Either way, Dwarfs weren't considered not because they don't deserve gold, but because their hook to get here was to satisfy outstanding grudges and we have delivered that.
The Gromril doesn't belong to them, it belongs to the hold. One of the K8P Dwarf Clans were Ironbreakers in the hold they settled in, but when they returned to K8P they had to give up their armor to the hold to go to K8P. They didn't own the armor despite being the ones who used it.
 
The Gromril doesn't belong to them, it belongs to the hold. One of the K8P Dwarf Clans were Ironbreakers in the hold they settled in, but when they returned to K8P they had to give up their armor to the hold to go to K8P. They didn't own the armor despite being the ones who used it.
Thats a fair point and i was just about to edit my post before you replied.

Someone who is trusted with suit of armor that costs a year worth of GDP of Hochland is unlikely to be pauper.
 
While I can't answer the rest of your question, I can point out that a few years is practically nothing to an elf, and they were concerned about Malekith rolling up while they played extra silly buggers with his kingdom. Also Morathi was still there to smack everyone that got too uppity. So they just didn't.
It was a full century that he was in the Realm of Chaos, that's certainly not nothing, even to elves.
 
It was a full century that he was in the Realm of Chaos, that's certainly not nothing, even to elves.
I'm pretty sure there was all sorts of chaos in the Dark Elf polities, especially Naggarond, and I think 6th Edition has more stories that go in depth about it and Kouran Darkhand's efforts to pit the Dark Elf Lords against each other to prevent any of them from getting too powerful until Malekith came back and took control. I forgot the details, but I think it involved a lot of Lords dying. But that's just standard fare for Druchii stories. You don't have one unless it involves copious amounts of murder, Druchii included.

Also, by god my memory is starting to slip. I couldn't even remember Kouran Darkhand's name without looking it up. The me of several months ago would be very disappointed.
 
It was a full century that he was in the Realm of Chaos, that's certainly not nothing, even to elves.
It is a considerable span of time, yes. That could be shown as an example of how deeply afraid the other Dark Elves are of Malekith, that last being seen getting tossed into the Realm of Chaos and being gone for a full century isn't enough to convince them that he won't be coming back, ready to make a new rug out of the one he finds sitting on his throne.
 
So, as a follow up question, is there info about the place that would let us know whether the workers in the expedition are actually wealthy themselves? Because I am thinking of working class people not getting paid because they.happen to come from a place with many super-rich residents and that leaves a bad aftertaste.

When we had that not-date with Johann, we learned that whilst dwarves believe everyone should contribute to the prosperity and wellbeing of the hold, that actually goes two ways, and the hold will care for the less wealthy or able of its citizens should the need arise.

This is indirectly why Thorek is mad at the imperial dwarves of Middenheim—the wealthy clans stayed in the empire and got richer, whilst the poorer clans were forced to migrate across the continent, and remain destitute to this day. The clans who stayed behind should be using their wealth to support the refugee clans, which doesn't appear to be a thing that's happening (or if it is happening, it's clearly not enough).

So the Ironbreakers, miners, and rangers leaving Drakenhof without any loot won't mean they will receive nothing—at the very least, they will be paid war-wages and combat bonuses for this (probably paid for from the royal clan's finances), and if that wasn't enough money to begin with there is a strong social support network at home to keep them happy. Considering that Zhufbar is not just a "Major Hold", but also the engineering hold, there is enough wealth for the Karak to support everybody who lives there, especially if they are willing to pull their weight by signing up for deadly combat missions.
 
When we had that not-date with Johann, we learned that whilst dwarves believe everyone should contribute to the prosperity and wellbeing of the hold, that actually goes two ways, and the hold will care for the less wealthy or able of its citizens should the need arise.
The Dwarf's honor (whether it's nature or nurture) makes abusing the system very unpalatable.

It's like a self reinforcing social safety net.

Because the alternative is everyone dying.
 
Not that I expect any kind of argument to budge trends this late in the discussion, but this post seems rather insightful overall.

As far as I can tell, the argument for the council is trusting Kasmir's opinion of these relative unknowns and hoping that the donation makes a difference for an organization that is just starting, while the argument against the dwarves is that although they did the most work by far they don't deserve and/or need the money because Zufbar is very rich already.

So, as a follow up question, is there info about the place that would let us know whether the workers in the expedition are actually wealthy themselves? Because I am thinking of working class people not getting paid because they.happen to come from a place with many super-rich residents and that leaves a bad aftertaste.
We've been explicitly told that no one is going to care if Mathilde decides to take everything herself, they'll just be pleased if they do get something.
 
I admit, most of my warhammer fantasy knowledge is from the total war games and assorted fanfic. Is the witchwood and the presence of wood elves around naggaroth purely made up for the game or is it a thing elsewhere too?
 
I admit, most of my warhammer fantasy knowledge is from the total war games and assorted fanfic. Is the witchwood and the presence of wood elves around naggaroth purely made up for the game or is it a thing elsewhere too?
The Wood Elves invaded Naggaroth once through the Worldroots (Morathi was responsible for the death of Ariel's sister) but I don't think there'd be any permanent presence.
 
I admit, most of my warhammer fantasy knowledge is from the total war games and assorted fanfic. Is the witchwood and the presence of wood elves around naggaroth purely made up for the game or is it a thing elsewhere too?
Ariel and Orion teleported to Naggaroth to kick Morathi's ass once, so they can definitely get there. The Witchwood brings a different forest to mind, as it's the Nordlander title for Laurelorn. If you want to see Naggaroth's forests, here's a map:
As you can see, a couple of forests. Forest of Arnheim, Glooming Wood, Twisted Glade, Shadow Wood, Deadwood etc.

Far as I know there is no Wood Elf population in there, but as the World Roots still maintain some active branches in Naggaroth that's not much of an obstacle if the Asrai want to kick some Druchii ass:
I'd like to thank past me for the effort she put into collating all those maps all that while ago. It's really paid dividends. I can just tag people with maps without having to spend 30 minutes struggling. It's great.
 
The easiest way to fix things is to just posit that the average Druchii isn't a sadistic murder-fiend in the same way that the average Roman citizen wasn't a Caligula or a Crassus. They pay their taxes and love their kids and go to edgy church and like to see some bloodsport at the arena every now and then and their extended family pools funds to buy a slave to sacrifice to mollify the Gods once a year or so.

I also kinda imagined there was some sort of "Working towards the Fuhrer" thing where even though everyone at the top is struggling, being corrupt, and undoubtedly weakening the overall effort, they do so in a way that still hearkens to obeying the Elf On Top and not going "too far."

It's still a form of self-sabotage but it turns out that Empires of all kinds, but especially those led by mass-murdering monsters, are kinda... a little self-defeating. Or a lot.
 
Not that I expect any kind of argument to budge trends this late in the discussion, but this post seems rather insightful overall.

As far as I can tell, the argument for the council is trusting Kasmir's opinion of these relative unknowns and hoping that the donation makes a difference for an organization that is just starting, while the argument against the dwarves is that although they did the most work by far they don't deserve and/or need the money because Zufbar is very rich already.

So, as a follow up question, is there info about the place that would let us know whether the workers in the expedition are actually wealthy themselves? Because I am thinking of working class people not getting paid because they.happen to come from a place with many super-rich residents and that leaves a bad aftertaste.
These are ironbreakers and expeditionary miners. They are probably very well paid...
 
After reading Boney's possible example of druichi culture I am thinking of that Druichi captain who fleeced Mathilde and how he went home and maybe bought his family members a farm or some slaves. Like that raid is what has brought his family wealth a and prosperity. I still want to kill him but it really would show a different side of the druichi.
 
After reading Boney's possible example of druichi culture I am thinking of that Druichi captain who fleeced Mathilde and how he went home and maybe bought his family members a farm or some slaves. Like that raid is what has brought his family wealth a and prosperity. I still want to kill him but it really would show a different side of the druichi.

Of course, within that different side is the twist at the tail. He went back to his wife and kids and then bought them living, thinking beings to help serve them on pain of beating and torture to make their lives easier so that they don't have to work as much.

But it is a more "normal" sort of evil, being the willing and happy beneficiary of an incredibly unjust system rather than some Arch-Devil of betrayal and sadism.
 
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