Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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- Chicago
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Basically just nitrating glycerin, right? I'm unsure. I know that haber-bosch ammonia was key to doing it IRL, but I'm not sure if it is needed to do at all.
Mercury fulminate.
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- Chicago
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- She/They
Wikipedia says:
"Mercury(II) fulminate is prepared by dissolving mercury in nitric acid and adding ethanol to the solution."
So I'm guessing that the dwarves may already have it- Mercury and ethanol we've already seen on screen, and nitric acid (HNO3) is apparently used to identify low-carat gold, so I'm guessing the dwarves have it too. Looks like you can get it with some low-tech processing of copper salts:
"In the laboratory, nitric acid can be made by thermal decomposition of copper(II) nitrate, producing nitrogen dioxide and oxygen gases, which are then passed through water to give nitric acid."
Given the way mercury fulminate apparently degrades over time though, I can see dwarves avoiding using it in weapons.
- Location
- Netherlands
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- She/Her
I realize this was probably just a casual one-off remark and not intended to be anything to take too seriously, but it sent my brain down a thinky road and now Thoughts Have Invaded My Brain And I Need To Share Them, so...
I wouldn't necessarily say it's impossible. I think that there's a good chance Mathilde could pull it off.
Mathilde has an incredible understanding of Dhar, has a belt that burns Dhar, has incredible Windsight and exceedingly precise control, a divine artifact that can improve her luck, access to a bunch of Dwarf-made rooms to increase casting safety in various ways, a trait specifically for the purposes of manipulating Winds with other Winds, a wide variety of other tools available so she doesn't have to solely rely on therefore overuse Dhar, and a great deal of paranoia regarding safety measures.
Hubris, maybe, but I don't think there's ever been anyone who had both the motivation and this many advantages to prevent their corruption by Dhar before actually getting started with it.
The Ulgu-Dhar tongs are an example of one Dhar technique that Mathilde thought posed minimal risk to the caster.
So yeah, personally, I actually think that Mathilde has a very good chance of not being directly negatively affected by wielding Dhar.
Indirectly, though, consciously crossing that line and breaking the Articles would weigh very heavily on her, plus she's never actually liked Dhar, always describing it in the most negative of terms in her internal narration.
And, perhaps most importantly, I don't think Mathilde/the thread has ever felt like she/we actually needed Dhar to accomplish her/our goals. There have always been other roads available, other methods of self empowerment. And I don't expect that to change unless things go really, really wrong.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The Belt does it right off. That's all you need. At least in terms of the direct effects of Dhar, the unhealthy mindset from wielding Dhar is, I think, a separate matter, though also more surmountable.
I don't want to.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
It's not just about the corruptive effects of Dhar, but also the effects of the mindset needed to wield it. Mathilde doesn't have a belt thay defends against that.
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah.
Like, the thing to keep in mind about all magic is that while there is variance within the single Winds to an they do have a pure expression:
Ulgu's purest expression is Gandalf the Gray, Aqshy's Gandalf the White (ironically enough), and Hysh's is Dr. Fate (when he's not written by weirdos).
Meanwhile Dhar makes you fall somewhere on the Saruman-Palpatine scale of being a dictatorial villain.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Personally, I don't want to even consider using anything more than the Second Secret of Dhar for anything less grave than an undead army marching upon our allies - you know, the exact same scenario in which the Grand Theogonist prevented the Empire from being conquered by vampires.
Even with the belt and a bucketload of caution the biggest risk is that it can compromise Mathilde. Not 'oh it will drive her irrevocably insane upon the first casting no matter how small', I mean that it'd be breaking her own principles.
Mathilde refused to use Dhar while Abelhelm was dying, and again after she found out he had left her the Liber Mortis and his body was still warm. Before and after that, she repeatedly expressed disdain for the crudeness, ugliness, uninventive nature of Dhar and its users. She has repeatedly put the good of the people she is loyal to above her own benefit - getting not only the evidence of Alka-Seltzer's Necromancer College but also the trade ledgers when she could have secured a bunch of books on Necromancy, the undead, Dhar, etc. She has repeatedly insisted on staying as close as reasonable to the spirit of the Articles.
She refused to use Dhar in the midst of despair, I don't want to entertain doing it in arrogance.
Nagash's Art cannot be safely wielded by even the best of mortals.
Even with the belt and a bucketload of caution the biggest risk is that it can compromise Mathilde. Not 'oh it will drive her irrevocably insane upon the first casting no matter how small', I mean that it'd be breaking her own principles.
Mathilde refused to use Dhar while Abelhelm was dying, and again after she found out he had left her the Liber Mortis and his body was still warm. Before and after that, she repeatedly expressed disdain for the crudeness, ugliness, uninventive nature of Dhar and its users. She has repeatedly put the good of the people she is loyal to above her own benefit - getting not only the evidence of Alka-Seltzer's Necromancer College but also the trade ledgers when she could have secured a bunch of books on Necromancy, the undead, Dhar, etc. She has repeatedly insisted on staying as close as reasonable to the spirit of the Articles.
She refused to use Dhar in the midst of despair, I don't want to entertain doing it in arrogance.
Nagash's Art cannot be safely wielded by even the best of mortals.
13th Bee
Worker
- Location
- Tennessee, USA.
Uh, no. That's what the wadding is for. Remember that musket balls were also usually undersized compared to the bore and would have the exact same potential issue, so they had a solution.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'd guess bad things. Which is why it'd be vital to use Ulgu as an intermediary and use Mathilde's many advantages here to prevent the bad-stuff from actually getting in her soul.
Also, I just want to say that while I'm talking about this stuff, I'm not exactly advocating we just go ahead and start doing Dhar stuff. I just find the what if of it all really compelling. Like a devil whispering in your ear, all seductive promises of "you could be different and better than all those that came before, history doesn't have to repeat itself". The potential hubris of it all.
My common sense says that "But what if this time could be different?" is the most hubris-y thought in existence and has probably been thought very frequently immediately prior to horrible disaster, but at the same time I can't deny there's some part of me that's been a little seduced by that thought.
I've written and deleted like 10+ paragraphs here because I'm constantly second guessing like everything I think regarding this topic in either direction. So uh, yeah. Please don't take my posts on this as trying to advocate for a position or push the thread in a certain direction or something, I just find this a really compelling part of the story and like thinking about it?
Also it would be pretty funny if after butterflying Egrimm into taking a chill pill Mathilde stole his role as #1 college trained Black Magister
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I don't see Mathilde going full Dhar ending at all well, but I do see it ending spectacularly. With the amount of relevant traits, equipment, and knowledge she has, she could probably make End Times Gelt look like an absolute chump scratching at the mere surface of Dhar's full potential.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
Raises finger, pauses, lowers itSooooo youre saying we have to become immortal first
...I mean, I could actually be convinced on that regard. If Mathilde ever reaches the point where she can achieve immortality without the usage of Dhar, then she's probably past the point of worrying about that. Like, if she ever gets to the point of being a goddess or whatever her apocryphal self is in that one Age of Sigmar omake, then maybe it can be done? At that point you might be past hubris.
But honestly, if she does manage to get there then she might not even need to use Dhar, you know? A bit of a Catch-22.
infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
I'd almost rather not ever use Dhar, even as a last resort. If anyone finds out about it, Mathilde turns from a hero to Dwarf and Human alike into a reviled traitor.
It wouldn't matter if she only did it once.
It wouldn't matter if it had no direct negative consequences.
It wouldn't matter if she was completely uncorrupted by the end of it.
The Empire cannot afford to forgive or tolerate a Necromancer, because it'd inspire dozens of other mages to try and imitate Mathilde. Mages who would inevitably go insane and cause chaos and destruction among the forces of Order. And if word got out that one of the Empire's most well-known and trusted Wizards betrayed the laws of Sigmar's empire, then it becomes a massive PR nightmare for magic-users as a whole. And I don't want to think of what it'd do to the perception of Wizards in the Karaz Ankor, for the most respected human Wizard to be revealed as an oath-breaker and Necromancer.
I can't imagine a scenario where Mathilde gets revealed as a Dark mage without it ultimately resulting in a huge blow for Order.
On a completely different note, while glancing at the now-outdated Dwarf Rep mechanic, I saw this:
It wouldn't matter if she only did it once.
It wouldn't matter if it had no direct negative consequences.
It wouldn't matter if she was completely uncorrupted by the end of it.
The Empire cannot afford to forgive or tolerate a Necromancer, because it'd inspire dozens of other mages to try and imitate Mathilde. Mages who would inevitably go insane and cause chaos and destruction among the forces of Order. And if word got out that one of the Empire's most well-known and trusted Wizards betrayed the laws of Sigmar's empire, then it becomes a massive PR nightmare for magic-users as a whole. And I don't want to think of what it'd do to the perception of Wizards in the Karaz Ankor, for the most respected human Wizard to be revealed as an oath-breaker and Necromancer.
I can't imagine a scenario where Mathilde gets revealed as a Dark mage without it ultimately resulting in a huge blow for Order.
On a completely different note, while glancing at the now-outdated Dwarf Rep mechanic, I saw this:
Do you guys think there's anything in there that could help the Waystone Project, even if it's "just" getting to look at examples of ancient enchantments?
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- Location
- Canada
There might be elf stuff that's relevant to the project, but I would be surprised if the pheonix crown specifically was one such thing. And if there is anything useful I think Thorek is probably in a better position to know about it than we are, and would likely have no objections to showing it to the project. He's either going to be getting frustrated at his inability to share information, or to be aware that other parties will be getting frustrated at his inability to share information, and providing elf knowledge would be a way to fix that without breaking his oaths.
To elaborate, where Ulgu requires a mindset of Ambivalence, Uncertainty and Confusion, to shape Dhar requires Ambition, and Cruelty(as well as a whole bunch of other stuff, but we know it works for Druchii).
Its the kind of mindset which makes it really easy to conclude that you know better and you shouldn't let things stop you from getting more power.
There's probably a stable state somewhere, but we only got the one brainpan, and the first step impairs your judgement.
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- Chicago
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Much easier with one large ball than a bunch of smaller ones that can roll around eachother. You just need to sew the wadding shut around it for that to work though.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
How so? Gandalf the White isn't particularly brash or anything.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Yeah, I'll admit that this thought, right here, is a pretty big influence on me. It's simply that I'm the sort driven by my desire to find entirely new points of view to inject into conversation. Thus, I think to myself... "Why destroy yourself with long-told dangers any half-baked fool may think to try, when you can instead toy with doom in a manner that only the greatest experts of the world could even attempt? Why be tempted by the darkness, that infects all around it and so inevitably lessens the world, when there is something else? Something so much... higher."
So yes, I mull and theorize on what High Magic and Qhaysh may be, how their themes might work, because I want I want Mathilde to gun for High Magic. If not precisely the High Magic of the Elves and Slann, then certainly a thing that can be called the Heights of Magic. Likewise I am very deeply aware this is a thing where humility and arrogance walk hand in hand: It's necessary to respect the reality that is for what it is, and with it all the difficulties and impossibilities that lie ahead, but I refuse to believe the goal itself is impossible. Even if I must twist thoughts like water to rectify these things.
For the moment, my thoughts on the matter are mostly focused on the potential of Windherding: If a single human hand cannot touch Qhaysh, then perhaps eight together, can; Tongs showed us that outright control is in the realm of Dhar, but simple influence? We saw later that same turn with Eike that that is not beyond us. There is simply the question of how far it can go once it is mastered. Actually getting there is just a matter of showing the same care that Mathilde has with all other aspects of multi-wind practices and artifacts.
(And yeah, I'm aware this probably reads a little weird and aggrandized. It is late and I am very definitely at the point of being just-before-bedtime loopy and talkative. Meh, maybe the point suffers a bit, but talking like this is fun right now.)
I vaguely recall reading Boneypost stating that in theory 8 wizards with Windherding and good teamwork can pull off Quash. Could someone *cough* @picklepikkl *cough* double check for me please?
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
There is some thematic link between Gandalf and Aqshy. The ring Gandalf carries is Narya, the Ring of Fire, and it's described as having the ability to rekindle hope and courage– something which Gandalf does a lot throughout the story. That sounds like the more emotional aspect of Aqshy.
But on the whole I'd agree that Gandalf the White isn't particularly a paragon of Aqshy. Among other things, he's very understated for a wizard, although admittedly he's in a setting where magic is almost by definition understated. Gandalf the White strikes me more as Hysh than anything, since most of his actions revolve around healing, protection, and destruction of supernatural evils.
- Location
- Utrecht
Mystical Aqshy also has courage and boldness under its umbrella, which is what gandalf does with the ring of fire.
When he beat the ringwraiths of weathertop, he did it by charring the top of the hill with lots and lots of fire.
He also does pyrotechnics on the side as a hobby.
Edit: That's gandalf the grey though. Gandalf the white is hysh.