Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
WRT your second point - normally Protector is about robingooding it in the woods, eating the rich or instigating social reforms, not killing vampires and retaking Karaks. Ranald is the Protector of the oppressed against the oppressors, not from things that go bump in the night or external threats. So that part of Mathilde's character actually isn't very Protector-y.
Mathilde's relationship with the Protector is probably deeply colored by how a prejudiced mob almost lynched her as a helpless innocent before a watchman invoked the law to protect her. So later on in life, she tends to view the Protector's ideal of keeping little people from being brutalized by those stronger than them as enforcing just laws to protect outcasts from the torches and pitchforks, or defending the less martially-inclined from monsters that want to eat them.
 
If nothing else, killing Vampires is at maximum like, half-a-step removed from just killing some noble.

They're literally a metaphor for the worst excesses of nobility.
 
If nothing else, killing Vampires is at maximum like, half-a-step removed from just killing some noble.

They're literally a metaphor for the worst excesses of nobility.
They are immortal nobles, who can accumulate generations worth of peasants having their sweat and blood (sometimes literally) taxed from them :V

So geez, I wonder why Ranald had one of his favorite rising stars grind her early levels against them
 
Was that ever addressed? Or is Lady Magister Webber still tormented by her early days mistakes, and internally cringes every time she blinks and remembers the whole "Lamia incident"? :V
Honestly? even if they stayed I don't think shame would have been her reaction, she got entrapped by factors completly outside her control, and the only reason she did not act directly against them was that the Vampires at the border was a more pressing concern.

The last memory she will have of the conspiracy is Van Hel delivering her the means to free herself from it while showing he knew about her divided loyalties and wanted to help. As well as her passing the list on the her mentor and engaging is some family friendly father and daughter conspiracy unraveling. Pretty up there in how that chapter of her life could have been closed.

If anything if she still had the Ciphers I would think her reaction would be grim satisfaction and a bit of a familiar and worn sorrow.

They are immortal nobles, who can accumulate generations worth of peasants having their sweat and blood (sometimes literally) taxed from them :V
Shameless linking one of my favorite webcomics just because it is open on the other tab and had an amazingly relevant comic.
 
Last edited:
Re: vampire children, Nefereta specifically canonically gave birth to vampire children way back in the day, and the reason the other original vampires didn't bother was described as "because they wanted immediate assets, not assets that took a decade and a half to be useful" rather than "because they stayed babies forever" so while it's POSSIBLE it's different for vampires that are turned are different in that regard it seems strongly implied to me that vampires would keep GROWING UP despite not AGING (they are strictly speaking two different biological processes, interfering with one doesn't have to interfere with the other.)
 
Re: vampire children, Nefereta specifically canonically gave birth to vampire children way back in the day, and the reason the other original vampires didn't bother was described as "because they wanted immediate assets, not assets that took a decade and a half to be useful" rather than "because they stayed babies forever" so while it's POSSIBLE it's different for vampires that are turned are different in that regard it seems strongly implied to me that vampires would keep GROWING UP despite not AGING (they are strictly speaking two different biological processes, interfering with one doesn't have to interfere with the other.)
I think there's a fair bit of wiggle-room in how to interpret the Liber Necris.

As far as quest-canon goes though, we can be reasonably sure that Vampires can have (mostly?) human children. Because Drycha came to Kislev because Boyar Kalashnivik has Nehekharan ancestry (that is, vampiric) and she thought Boris was the Boyar because he had it as well- he's descended from Katarin the Bloody.
 
I have nothing to comment on your points per se, but I would like to note that I find it funny how a quest that began with a premise of "Divided Loyalties" produced such an institution-loyal character
Hmm, my perspective is this: You pretty much have to explicitly set out to create a disloyal character, enforced by mechanics, because loyalty is seen as a virtue and people just like virtuous characters more. And a lack of loyalty is an especially unlikable character trait.

Also, the meaning of Divided Loyalty has shifted. In the Stirland arc, it really was that Mathilde was torn between options, and having to decide just how loyal she was. But since then, it's much more about genuinely held but occasionally contradicting loyalties, and how to balance them. Note how the embazzling mechanic and the council report mechanics dropped. Because the question those mechanics asked has been answered as Mathilde's character evolved, and her station changed.
 
Hmm, my perspective is this: You pretty much have to explicitly set out to create a disloyal character, enforced by mechanics, because loyalty is seen as a virtue and people just like virtuous characters more. And a lack of loyalty is an especially unlikable character trait.

You can have disloyalty if the quester's boss is Officially Bad, so that one of the players' tasks is to somehow get away from their dangerous boss. Like a Worm quest where you start out working for Coil.

Or, speaking of Worm, you can set the quest in a sufficiently crapsack world that there's officially No Way To Save Everybody. But that sounds like not much fun to play: quests are mostly about being able to do things, not about being helpless.

I agree with your main point, though. Inside a story, it's really hard to justify being cold to others who have been kind to the protagonist. Even "villain POV" stories work hard to minimize the number of genuinely nice characters the POV both gets to know well and then screws over. Usually Villain POVs are mean to nice strangers, not to nice people they actually know well.
 
Last edited:
I have nothing to comment on your points per se, but I would like to note that I find it funny how a quest that began with a premise of "Divided Loyalties" produced such an institution-loyal character.
Yeah, the thing about Mathilde and her divided loyalties is that it kinda results explicitly from being too loyal. She gives it… not freely, per se, but easily to those who earn it and would back every single one to the hilt if possible. Loyalty can never truly serve two masters, but damn if Mathilde isn't willing to try. Hence why she so often looks for things that can benefit multiple groups at the same time.

Mathilde's a bit like a harem protagonist, except with institutions and bosses instead of love interests. She just has too much loyalty to spread around.
Shameless linking one of my favorite webcomics just because it is open on the other tab and had an amazingly relevant comic.
"Pitter Patter, let's get at 'er" is still one of the best lines I've ever read.
 
Last edited:
We do arrive at a much more natural sense of divided loyalties regardless - we owe allegiance to multiple nominally allied groups which value dramatically different things. And you can't fulfill them all.
 
Honestly, this makes complete sense to me for a quest about Divided Loyalties- your loyalties can't be divided if you don't have any, after all.

I doubt it was happenstance that our first boss was someone it was so very easy to develop loyalties to.
 
Mathilde Weber character analysis
I expanded on my Mathilde analysis. Added a "Worthiness" and "Connections" section as parts 4 and 6 respectively, moving Curiosity to part 5. I previously touched on the worthiness and value of connections in the "Loyalty" section. If there's anything that seems off, feedback would be appreciated!
1: Bravery
- Mathilde is willing to put her life and soul on the line to accomplish her goals, though she always tries to stack the deck when doing so.
- She's also got a daring sort of empathy, willing to and even eager to understand and connect to people that others would find too dangerous or too alien. She even describes "dangerous" as one of the traits that she's (romantically) attracted to.
- Very Gambler.

2: "We did it. We changed the world we live in."
- Mathilde wants to change the world into something better for the people living in it.
- She said this line to the memory of Abelhelm in a very book-endy moment, and later echoed it to Johann.
- This motivation probably comes heavily from her backstory in nearly being burnt as a child, and her survival only being made possible because Magnus changed the world into one where that didn't have to happen. But there's still so many wrongs to right...
- Very Protector.

3: Loyalty
- Mathilde is overwhelmingly loyal to people and institutions she believes in.
- This also probably stems from her backstory. Traumatic experience, rejected by her community and family, only saved by the grace of one authority figure and then taken in by the Grey College.
- The Grey College is also very good at instilling a strong sense of loyalty in its Wizards.
- It helps that she's been fairly successful in finding people worthy of her loyalty.
- Notably, Mathilde's loyalty is not only a powerful motivator, it is also the main thing that can stop her other powerful motivations in their tracks. See: The refusal to wield Dhar, admitting to humiliating mistakes like accidentally knocking out an ally with a magic dart, turning back at Karag Dum for the sake of the Expedition even though there was more to learn... but most notably of all, the sacrifice of the Divine AV, which was the greatest challenge of her loyalty that she has thus far encountered, and that vote's outcome firmly established that Mathilde's loyalty is the ultimate veto of her actions.

4: Worthiness
- In her backstory, Mathilde had the worth of her life violently and traumatically dismissed by her community and family, only to be saved by the grace of one authority figure and then through being taken in by the Grey College.
- Likely as a result of this, Mathilde has a very strong urge to prove her own worth. It feeds her ambition, makes her want to matter, for her life to mean something.
- Approval, praise, gratitude, and admiration all fulfill an emotional need for Mathilde, I reckon - especially from an authority figure she's loyal to. Meowthilde demands headpats for the latest Weird Thing she dragged in, and all that.
- This also probably contributes to how much satisfaction she gets from playing the impressive smug all-knowing Grey Wizard. "Ulgu makes mystics and showmen", indeed.

5: Curiosity
- Mathilde always wants to learn, to understand, to seek out mysteries - and she is not inclined towards closing her mind to possibilities unless they would come into conflict with her loyalties.
- This stems in part from Ulgu.("Is this a Grey Wizard thing? You just seek out the biggest question you can and bang yourself against it like a moth against a lantern so you have a constant source of confusion at hand?" "To Hysh, it is the moment of realization that is most satisfying, and the rest is simply the thrill of the hunt. To Ulgu, the seeking itself must energize.")
- Also, from being adopted by and in turn adopting the values of one of the Colleges of Magic.
- Plus her eagerness to prove herself... (look what i figured out, be proud of me!)
- Plus her desire to change the world... (look what i figured out, this is gonna save lives!)
- And likely, from the fact that her childhood trauma stems from people being close-minded.

6: Connections
- When kid Mathilde's magic was revealed, she became other, an outcast, and lost her connections to her family and community. Then the Grey College took her in and made her a part of something again, and she was taught to be an instrument of the Empire's will - a part of a greater whole.
- Mathilde believes strongly in the value and importance of the interconnectedness of various institutions/groups, both in strengthening those connections and creating new ones.
- This shapes her loyalty into something much broader. In her speech to the EIC she talked about how the Empire as a whole was vital to all institutions and people within it, and I think she similarly views the Empire as part of a greater whole that her loyalty to the Empire extends to. Hence, her easy willingness to help Dwarves, Kislev, and so on.
- This worldview is heavily reinforced by the fact that Mathilde has seen very many successes thanks to the connections between various institutions and groups and people, sometimes ones she has herself created or reinvigorated. Overpowered gear, valuable allies, many headpats, everything about K8P and its inhabitants, the Eye of Gazul, the We, the Duckling Club(and later WEB-MAT)... and now, the Waystone Project and the Library.
 
Last edited:
In general, voters tend towards trying to make their PCs good guys unless there's specifically mechanics preventing it. Since loyalty is typically seen as a virtue, threads will often try to go above and beyond for bosses worthy of respect. That respectability seems to come from a combination of being similarly devoted to selflessness and looking out for the greater good of the general populace, and knowing what they're doing and how they're going to get there or at least being willing to listen to advice (particularly that of the PC), though that also applies in general.
 
Last edited:
From my prolonged experience in Questing, people in quests generally try to make a character act out their most "ideal" selves for whatever archetype that character is - regardless of the sacrifices the character themselves would need to make, since the in-character motivations to be safe and comfortable naturally take a backseat to out-of-character motivations to read about someone interesting and admirable.

This is generally heavily biased by the characters own perspectives - as long as the narration treats something as virtuous, questgoers will strongly push for it, even if from an alternate perspective what is being pushed is monstrous.
 
If nothing else, killing Vampires is at maximum like, half-a-step removed from just killing some noble.

They're literally a metaphor for the worst excesses of nobility.

Man now I'm thinking of that one joke about how vampire conferences get real awkward when the vampire who's a metaphor for being LGBT meets the vampire who's a metaphor for robber barons.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the thing about Mathilde and her divided loyalties is that it kinda results explicitly from being too loyal. She gives it… not freely, per se, but easily to those who earn it and would back every single one to the hilt if possible. Loyalty can never truly serve two masters, but damn if Mathilde isn't willing to try. Hence why she so often looks for things that can benefit multiple groups at the same time.

Mathilde's a bit like a harem protagonist, except with institutions and bosses instead of love interests. She just has too much loyalty to spread around.

"Pitter Patter, let's get at 'er" is still one of the best lines I've ever read.
To be fair, we picked Dwarves.

And we just kept exceeding expectations so...
 
@Codex, after reading your good and correct comments regarding "this child is secretly a thousand year-old vampire so I'm not a pedophile" tropes and after reading the quoted text about the 12 year-old Warhammer vampire, I went looking for good ways to handle vampire children.
I'm shocked to say that Twilight of all franchises seems to have handled this the best, with its vampire children who are incredibly cute/good-looking and inspire absurd levels of devotion instantly, but who never emotionally grow up and are inevitably bugfuck insane monsters who ruin everything for everyone around them. Just the biggest "fuck you" to vampire loli fans, it's sort of hilarious.

Please don't talk to me about Renesmee, she's technically not a proper vampire so I'm ignoring that she even exists. Trying to figure out the symbolism there while writing this post was an experience I do not want to repeat.

Then you also have a couple of LGBT robber baron vampires stuck in the middle feeling very awkward.
Girlboss, Girlqueen, Girlrobberbaron ;)
 
The third line of the Ninth Commandment of Caine, according to the Erciyes Fragments: "Embrace not the young, for they will surely bring folly to your line."

Even the guy that rivals 40k's Emperor for bad parenting skills is able to see that vampire kids is a terrible idea.
 
bugfuck insane monsters who ruin everything for everyone around them. Just the biggest "fuck you" to vampire loli fans, it's sort of hilarious.

Eh, I suspect a lot of vampire fans enjoy the full range from weird-sexy to weird-awful. I enjoy both action movies and military history, and I promise, only one of those makes fighting look like fun.

I do find "vampire == sex object" kind of dull most of the time. But that's not because I hate people's kinks for small, large, or immortal breasts. I just hate authors rounding off immortality, and all its fascinating complications, to a mere "hey, they're pretty, the POV should have sex with them."

Immortality - generations of change and experience gone by - and all the writer can highlight is their looks?

There's some real sad vampire writing out there.

(And, to be clear, there's just as much sad writing in the largely female-aimed romances as the largely male-aimed harem mangas. Yes, I get that he's handsome and dangerous and he wants her, but can you please show me his personality?...)
 
Last edited:
I mean, I assume vampire loli fans average about as much interest in chatting up actual kids as people with rape fantasies have in actually being raped, or as people with roller-coaster habits have for actual uncontrolled falling, or as Grand Theft Auto players have for actually stealing your car.

Transgression is fun in fiction *because* it would be appalling in real life. The cognitive dissonance is the point. Otherwise we'd be playing Safe Rented Auto driving games, and this quest's RPG wouldn't be Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, it'd be Slice Of Life Farming In Idyllic Past Roleplay.
This is not the place to be discussing fantasy pedophilia. I recommend reconsidering following this thread of conversation to its conclusion.
 
In general, voters tend towards trying to make their PCs good guys unless there's specifically mechanics preventing it. Since loyalty is typically seen as a virtue, threads will often try to go above and beyond for bosses worthy of respect. That respectability seems to come from a combination of being similarly devoted to selflessness and looking out for the greater good of the general populace, and knowing what they're doing and how they're going to get there or at least willing to listen to advice (particularly that of the PC), though that also applies in general.

Yeah and that is I think the reason why actually villain quests fail so often. I have not in all the years I have been following Warhammer quests seen a single chaos quest make it to more than 20 pages and a handful of updates.
 
Back
Top