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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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King Arthur said:
You know, it hadn't occurred to me before, but as far as our potential mission of "do something about the Iron Orcs" goes ... I wonder how hard it'd be to use their heresy against Mork and Gork to trigger the other Greenskins in the area to act against them for us????
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That would be the Orcs and Goblins inhabiting the Massif Orcal. Thing is, even if they got sufficiently riled up by the Iron Orcs' existence, to get to Carcassonne they'd have to cross the entire breadth of Quenelles, and they wouldn't do so with anything resembling speed or focus. And then, to actually get to the mountain ranges inhabited by the Iron Orcs, they'd fight through all of Carcassonne, too. So, the end result would be two Bretonnian provinces lying in ruin for a possible end to the Iron Orcs, which would in all likelyhood be replaced as a threat by the WAAAAGH! that killed them for good.

Personally, I can't see the Bretonnians taking the suggestion of such a course of action all that well, to put it mildly.

Honestly, getting the dwarf holds of the Vaults to tunnel all the way to underneath the Iron Orcs, piling up several centuries' worth of blasting charges and then aggressively remodeling the land border between Estalia and Bretonnia would probably be a more efficient method for rooting them out.
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
That would be the Orcs and Goblins inhabiting the Massif Orcal. Thing is, even if they got sufficiently riled up by the Iron Orcs' existence, to get to Carcassonne they'd have to cross the entire breadth of Quenelles, and they wouldn't do so with anything resembling speed or focus. And then, to actually get to the mountain ranges inhabited by the Iron Orcs, they'd fight through all of Carcassonne, too. So, the end result would be two Bretonnian provinces lying in ruin for a possible end to the Iron Orcs, which would in all likelyhood be replaced as a threat by the WAAAAGH! that killed them for good.

Personally, I can't see the Bretonnians taking the suggestion of such a course of action all that well, to put it mildly.
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I mean, there's going to be Orcs and Goblins in the Vaults, too.
 
Mopman43 said:
I mean, there's going to be Orcs and Goblins in the Vaults, too.
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Considering that even small dwarf Holds can eke out a mostly stable existence there, it isn't terribly likely for them to be in sufficient numbers for rooting out dug-in pseudo-Black Orcs, let alone on a campaign that takes them far from their home territories. And that still leaves the possible problem of a Warboss capable of destroying the Iron Orcs ballooning into a full-on WAAAGH!
 
I have with me an 8th Edition Greenskins concentration map:
This map is around 2522 IC and DL has had its fair share of butterflies changing things, so it shouldn't be taken at face value. Nevertheless, the tribes closest to the Irrana Mountains seems to be the Necksnappers in the Vaults and the Broken Nose in the Apuccini Mountains.

Necksnappers, not a good idea. They're led by Morglum Necksnapper, a Black Orc Warboss who used to be a character in 4th Edition but was relegated to a mention in the timelines here and there in later Editions. Still, he was the representative of the Black Orcs in the Orcs and Goblins books before Grimgor was a thing.
 
Codex said:
I have with me an 8th Edition Greenskins concentration map:
This map is around 2522 IC and DL has had its fair share of butterflies changing things, so it shouldn't be taken at face value. Nevertheless, the tribes closest to the Irrana Mountains seems to be the Necksnappers in the Vaults and the Broken Nose in the Apuccini Mountains.

Necksnappers, not a good idea. They're led by Morglum Necksnapper, a Black Orc Warboss who used to be a character in 4th Edition but was relegated to a mention in the timelines here and there in later Editions. Still, he was the representative of the Black Orcs in the Orcs and Goblins books before Grimgor was a thing.
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I feel like if Necksnapper was anywhere he'd be in the Dark Lands, given we're right around when he gave the Bretonnians the defeat in Death Pass that ended their Errantry War.

That Errantry War ended early in-quest of course, but that's the best clue I'm aware of for where he'd be.
 
The problem with using Orcs against Orcs is really just a variation on the problem of using Orcs against anything. Namely that even in the best case you've replaced your previous problem with an Orc problem, unless you have a massive army to mop up in which case you might as well not have bothered. But Orcs against Orcs is the worst, because if the Warbosses decide to duel each other quickly your two problems might end up fusing into a single larger problem.

This is very much a case of 'conventional wisdom is correct, just don't do this thing'.
 
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I recall we had a lot of discussion on Rite of Way and its tactical/strategic consequences, and how much of an impact it could really have when restricted to Battle Wizards.

Question for the thread: If Rite of Way were to be codified, would that make the Laurelorn-Middenland trade route viable? After all, codifying a spell allows any magic user of sufficient skill to learn it, and that includes the Eonir. And while it would still be restricted to specialized magic users capable of battle magic, I imagine that for the Eonir, that number is going to be higher than what the Greys can muster.

To recap the trade issue: Laurelorn wants to trade, and Middenland wants to trade, but the most direct route is blocked by a swamp and Laurelorn doesn't want to build a road through it due to its strategic value. Rite of Way is a BM-level Ulgu spell that temporarily makes terrain temporarily traversable, for as long as the spell is maintained, for up to a regiment of infantry (2500) or a cohort of cavalry (500). In theory, RoW could address the difficulties of traveling through swampland without compromising its ability to act as a defensive barrier.
 
ReImagined said:
I recall we had a lot of discussion on Rite of Way and its tactical/strategic consequences, and how much of an impact it could really have when restricted to Battle Wizards.

Question for the thread: If Rite of Way were to be codified, would that make the Laurelorn-Middenland trade route viable? After all, codifying a spell allows any magic user of sufficient skill to learn it, and that includes the Eonir. And while it would still be restricted to specialized magic users capable of battle magic, I imagine that for the Eonir, that number is going to be higher than what the Greys can muster.

To recap the trade issue: Laurelorn wants to trade, and Middenland wants to trade, but the most direct route is blocked by a swamp and Laurelorn doesn't want to build a road through it due to its strategic value. Rite of Way is a BM-level Ulgu spell that temporarily makes terrain temporarily traversable, for as long as the spell is maintained, for up to a regiment of infantry (2500) or a cohort of cavalry (500). In theory, RoW could address the difficulties of traveling through swampland without compromising its ability to act as a defensive barrier.
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One big issue with that is that I think human magic is to elf magic as Umgi engineering is to Dawi engineering. I can't find the quotes right now but I'm pretty sure Boney said that when elves do spell creation it's the work of years and the theoretical underpinning of the spell is extremely well understood. Needless to say, that was not the case with Rite of Way. I think any Eonir would need to be pretty deep in the kickflip zone to even consider learning it.

Even setting that aside, just because the number of casters capable of casting battle magic is higher for the Eonir doesn't mean they aren't a valuable resource. Such a caster would have to accompany any trading caravan for miles, keeping up a battle magic spell for hours, and any caster capable of doing that on a regular basis probably has better things to do. If codifying Rite of Way goes really well and it ends up being Fiendishly Complex or something (is that even a possibility?) that would be less of a problem, but still.
 
A tower that casts Rite of Way might be a possibility. Activate the tower when you need a magical road running through the swamp, and turn it off when you need the swamp as a defensive feature. Sort of like a drawbridge.

You could hook it up to a waystone to power it as well.

The only issue is do we put it on the elven side of the border or the human side?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
A tower that casts Rite of Way might be a possibility. Activate the tower when you need a magical road running through the swamp, and turn it off when you need the swamp as a defensive feature. Sort of like a drawbridge.

You could hook it up to a waystone to power it as well.

The only issue is do we put it on the elven side of the border or the human side?
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I suspect that legally it would have to be on the human side, but happy to be corrected.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
I suspect that legally it would have to be on the human side, but happy to be corrected.
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But that means the humans have a highway into the heart of Laurelorn that they can switch on and off at a whim, which is a massive military advantage. The whole point of the swamp is that it keeps enemy armies out—a human controlled tower of Rite of Way nullifies that, and you might as well as build a normal road at that point.
 
Diplomatically two linked towers sound the most appropriate. At this point in time the Eonir wouldn't want Middenland to have an independently deployable military grade highway and the Empire would be miffed if we handed this tech to Laurelorn for them to freely reverse engineer.

Edit: Forgot the part where Tor Lithanel has banned all building.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
But that means the humans have a highway into the heart of Laurelorn that they can switch on and off at a whim, which is a massive military advantage. The whole point of the swamp is that it keeps enemy armies out—a human controlled tower of Rite of Way nullifies that, and you might as well as build a normal road at that point.
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I agree. However, if the tower were on the otherside we would be providing a quick route over the natural defences of Middenland - one that would be controlled by a policy distinct to the empire. If we were to build such a tower wouldn't we fall foul of the articles? (Fully prepared to be corrected on this: in which case much of my argument is moot.)
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
I agree. However, if the tower were on the otherside we would be providing a quick route over the natural defences of Middenland - one that would be controlled by a policy distinct to the empire. If we were to build such a tower wouldn't we fall foul of the articles? (Fully prepared to be corrected on this: in which case much of my argument is moot.)
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I don't think the Articles specifically prohibit giving magic to other nations—otherwise the Tower of Gazul would be a breach—but giving military and economic aid to a potential enemy might be against the "Laws and Customs of Sigmar's Empire". On the other hand, we might be required to give that aid to allies of the Empire for the same reason.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I don't think the Articles specifically prohibit giving magic to other nations—otherwise the Tower of Gazul would be a breach—but giving military and economic aid to a potential enemy might be against the "Laws and Customs of Sigmar's Empire". On the other hand, we might be required to give that aid to allies of the Empire for the same reason.
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So I think if such a tower is constructed, there should be at least two such towers: one for each side, with their corresponding routes meeting in the middle. I don't think this will make the swamp less secure, since while the length of the swamp is lessened, it is only done so at one specific point, creating a natural chokepoint.
 
VoiceOfTheRiders said:
So I think if such a tower is constructed, there should be at least two such towers: one for each side, with their corresponding routes meeting in the middle. I don't think this will make the swamp less secure, since while the length of the swamp is lessened, it is only done so at one specific point, creating a natural chokepoint.
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Perhaps instead of two big towers a chain of smaller borderposts/trees that maintain a stretch of road. Easier to sabotage, but also easier to disable in a war situation.
 
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mathymancer said:
One big issue with that is that I think human magic is to elf magic as Umgi engineering is to Dawi engineering. I can't find the quotes right now but I'm pretty sure Boney said that when elves do spell creation it's the work of years and the theoretical underpinning of the spell is extremely well understood. Needless to say, that was not the case with Rite of Way. I think any Eonir would need to be pretty deep in the kickflip zone to even consider learning it.

Even setting that aside, just because the number of casters capable of casting battle magic is higher for the Eonir doesn't mean they aren't a valuable resource. Such a caster would have to accompany any trading caravan for miles, keeping up a battle magic spell for hours, and any caster capable of doing that on a regular basis probably has better things to do. If codifying Rite of Way goes really well and it ends up being Fiendishly Complex or something (is that even a possibility?) that would be less of a problem, but still.
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I think we should also keep in mind that swamps are just generally dangerous in Warhammer, yes this one less than most, but I am not sure you would want to get your Battle Mages walking across a specific stretch of borderlands in a predictable manner. That sounds like a great way to get ambushed.
 
Viburnum Lantana, or Wayfaring Tree, is commonly found growing close to paths in the UK. Its wood has been used for making arrows, and it has beautiful cream flower umbels at this time of year, as well as bright red berries in the autumn, turning black as the season progresses. The berries are poisonous. Seems perfect for such a road.
 
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Burnsworthy said:
Viburnum Lantana, or Wayfaring Tree, is commonly found growing close to paths in the UK. It's wood has been used for making arrows, and it has beautiful cream flower umbels at this time of year, as well as bright red berries in the autumn, turning black as the season progresses. The berries are poisonous. Seems perfect for such a road.
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Huh, I live in the UK and never knew this.
Tbh I'm going to show this to my mum, she'd find it interesting to
 
The Wayfarer's Path

Across the Schadensumpf, rising out of the swamps like gnarled and crooked signposts to nowhere, stand a number of trees called Wayfarers. Wreathed in mist and rich in Ulgu, these trees are simply the visible nodes of a maze-like network of magical paths stretching across the mire between Middenland and Laurelorn. Though there are many trees, there is only one safe path, which changes in an unpredictable pattern, spelling certain doom to to those who cross without up-to-date knowledge of the right way. A 'calendar' of sorts, describing these changes can be found in each of the starting points on the Middenland side, but it is written in a complex cipher which requires two halves of a key to solve - one held by the humans, the other by the elves. Only with both keys can prospective traders and travellers map out the route for any specific day, lest they find themselves victim to the defenses of the forest people, whether natural or otherwise.

Just a idea building on some of the existing discussion on an equitable swamp route.
 
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