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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I'm just saying, it's probably best to just... not argue with Boney over plants and the phrasing he's using? Boney doesn't often make it clear when he wants a topic to end, but if I'm not misreading him, he's not exactly enthusiastic about continuing to argue the point.

Boney gets the feeling that he's obligated to answer anyone that tries to argue with him, and let me tell you that it isn't helpful to argue with him over such a weirdly benign topic.
 
NuclearConsensus said:
So... not at all? :p
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If they've been properly socialized and you know what they like, it's a lot easier than you might think. If they haven't, anyone that tried it will probably end up bleeding.

Ninbefor said:
Are they part of a shared overall continuum? Sure.
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Cool, this was the exact point I was making, that plants exist on the extreme lower end of the same continuum, so introducing magic to the equation can move them further along at that continuum. So if you can go ahead and point me towards whoever it is that is arguing that 'plant responses aren't meaningfully distinct from human emotions', we can be skeptical at them together.
 
You know, something I've noticed ever since Mathilde and Panoramia dated, is that she turned out to be far more practical and action oriented than I thought. I was initially under the assumption that she would be the mushy/sappy type, and maybe that's because of our first impressions all the way back in the K8P expedition where Panoramia was squealing every two minutes. Now though, Panoramia is so much more wizened that it's baffling to think that she used to be like that.

I wonder if Panoramia looks back at what she was like and blushes in embarrasment. It's kind of like early Stirland Mathilde. Mathilde had already set into a groove by K8P, having largely stepped beyond her initial awkwardness (some of the goofiness remained, but she wasn't nearly as dorky). Panoramia's K8P expedition was the equivalent of Stirland for her.

I think it's for the best that Panoramia evolved from "Kyaaa indrect kiss", but it's pretty funny to think about now.
 
Codex said:
Then there's the technical talk. Lots of terms I have no knowledge of that makes me suspect that either Boney's done a frankly ludicrous amount of research or that he's somehow acquainted with Biology/ecology to a far greater degree than I anticipated.
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Around here, they teach this stuff in middle school biology, so I hadn't even considered it might be different elsewhere.

Then again, half the country is a giant forest so it's a bit more relevant.

Boney said:
Which dives you deep into the rather existential debate of where one draws the line, and whether there's even a line to be drawn at all that isn't based on pure anthropocentrism. We like to think that we're more than a sum of autonomic responses to external stimuli, but a worrying amount of research would beg to differ.
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Aside from never having seen any research that claims that claims people are just large automatic response piles, I also have to ask if that is even the right source to draw on for that kind of stuff.

Philosopher: I wonder if there is more to a person than the eye can see.
Scientist: So I looked really hard and I saw nothing of the sort. Hope that answers your question.
Philosopher: No, it doesn't. Where you listening?

I do agree with you on plants though, they have a lot more going on than people give them credit for, no matter what arbitrary sound combination we choose to attach to it in the end.

Also interesting: Ravens. Whatever line for sapient one wants to choose, they are clearly over it. At least for any definitions that don't require culture, but that's messed up anyway.

Boney said:
If they've been properly socialized and you know what they like, it's a lot easier than you might think. If they haven't, anyone that tried it will probably end up bleeding.
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Actually you can even parley with unsocialised cats. It's just mostly "lets stay away from each other and not waste energy fighting" stuff. Which is still great when meeting a feral cat in an alleyway.

Codex said:
You know, something I've noticed ever since Mathilde and Panoramia dated, is that she turned out to be far more practical and action oriented than I thought. I was initially under the assumption that she would be the mushy/sappy type, and maybe that's because of our first impressions all the way back in the K8P expedition where Panoramia was squealing every two minutes. Now though, Panoramia is so much more wizened that it's baffling to think that she used to be like that.

I wonder if Panoramia looks back at what she was like and blushes in embarrasment. It's kind of like early Stirland Mathilde. Mathilde had already set into a groove by K8P, having largely stepped beyond her initial awkwardness (some of the goofiness remained, but she wasn't nearly as dorky). Panoramia's K8P expedition was the equivalent of Stirland for her.

I think it's for the best that Panoramia evolved from "Kyaaa indrect kiss", but it's pretty funny to think about now.
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I never really got that vibe since one of the first things she did was drag up deadly poisons.

So she got very lethals and serious as a person in my eyes very fast, no matter how fangirly she got.
 
Codex said:
You know, something I've noticed ever since Mathilde and Panoramia dated, is that she turned out to be far more practical and action oriented than I thought.
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Even back then Panoramia struck me as pretty active and proactive, as I recall willing to go alone to forage in a giant-spider-infested, goblin forest for the possibility of useful plants. Or to sit in a puddle on her own all afternoon in the midst of greenskin-patrolled lands, force-growing those same Black Lotuses/Loti. And she lamented how slow the progress of the Ostermark Mordeim(?) campaign was.
 
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Codex said:
You know, something I've noticed ever since Mathilde and Panoramia dated, is that she turned out to be far more practical and action oriented than I thought. I was initially under the assumption that she would be the mushy/sappy type, and maybe that's because of our first impressions all the way back in the K8P expedition where Panoramia was squealing every two minutes. Now though, Panoramia is so much more wizened that it's baffling to think that she used to be like that.

I wonder if Panoramia looks back at what she was like and blushes in embarrasment. It's kind of like early Stirland Mathilde. Mathilde had already set into a groove by K8P, having largely stepped beyond her initial awkwardness (some of the goofiness remained, but she wasn't nearly as dorky). Panoramia's K8P expedition was the equivalent of Stirland for her.

I think it's for the best that Panoramia evolved from "Kyaaa indrect kiss", but it's pretty funny to think about now.
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There's an element of that, but a big part of it is her role in society. In the Mordheim campaign and the Karak Eight Peaks Expedition, she was rejecting her place in the Jade Order and looking for a new one for herself, and what she found was that of a mediocre siege weapon to people who didn't trust magic. But after K8P was established she became an irreplaceable farming consultant to people who held farming to be extremely important and who quickly came to completely trust her insight, and after that she started interacting with Mathilde as much more of an equal.

Burned_Cookie said:
Aside from never having seen any research that claims that claims people are just large automatic response piles, I also have to ask if that is even the right source to draw on for that kind of stuff.

Philosopher: I wonder if there is more to a person than the eye can see.
Scientist: So I looked really hard and I saw nothing of the sort. Hope that answers your question.
Philosopher: No, it doesn't. Where you listening?

I do agree with you on plants though, they have a lot more going on than people give them credit for, no matter what arbitrary sound combination we choose to attach to it in the end.
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I am extremely far from an expert on the subject, but this sort of thing is the sort of research I stumble across that makes me firmly resolve to stop reading that sort of research because it gives me existential heebie jeebies.

Burned_Cookie said:
Also interesting: Ravens. Whatever line for sapient one wants to choose, they are clearly over it. At least for any definitions that don't require culture, but that's messed up anyway.
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Octopi too, and their equivalent of a central nervous system is distributed through their tentacles.
 
Boney said:
the most magical and benign forest within the Empire's borders
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Glorious worldbuilding.
Botanical, cultural and political.

We will never have the AP to check but I have to wonder how aware the Nordland lumberjacks were of the unusual nature of the trees they chopped. On the one hand trees with firing platforms seem noteworthy. On the other if they never saw trees from other places they might just assume it is normal.

Also cute nerds being cute, but that was a given.

"Ooh, commensalist magic. I wonder, does that indicate an inefficiency in the base design that the interweaving manages to bypass, or is it a cunning use of harmonious design?
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…ok, why the heck have we not speculated on interweaving spells?

Perhaps it hasn't been the most conventionally romantic day, but you wouldn't change anything about it.
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Bah, conventional is a coward's word.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Around here, they teach this stuff in middle school biology, so I hadn't even considered it might be different elsewhere.

Then again, half the country is a giant forest so it's a bit more relevant.
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I live in a desert. Only tree that grows here naturally are Palm trees, primarily date trees.

I think forests are magical environments. I don't think I've ever been in a genuine one my whole life. Plants are alien to me. Biology has always been a byword for "let's study animals and humans" and never anything else while I was in school.
 
Codex said:
I live in a desert. Only tree that grows here naturally are Palm trees, primarily date trees. I think forests are magical environments. I don't think I've ever been in a genuine one my whole life. Plants are alien to me. Biology has always been a byword for "let's study animals and humans" and never anything else while I was in school.
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You're Bahraini, right? There's a lot of countries you can pop over to visa-free with some beautiful natural forests. Never too late!
 
Boney said:
I am extremely far from an expert on the subject, but this sort of thing is the sort of research I stumble across that makes me firmly resolve to stop reading that sort of research because it gives me existential heebie jeebies.
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That approach seems very flawed, as it is a simple physical task. Push button and save image is a task id rather give a computer than a human, so I'd make sense to boot that to the more simpler part of the brain.

But while I strongly disagree with the conclusions they are drawing, me having aknee jerk reflex doesn't invalidate my existence either, that is some very interesting data, thanks for linking it.

Boney said:
Octopi too, and their equivalent of a central nervous system is distributed through their tentacles.
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Aren't they the ones with the giant axions? I may be confusing my sea critters though, my understanding of the oceans is surface level only.

…

Get it, because water has a surface?

…

I'll sea myself out. :p

Codex said:
think forests are magical environments. I don't think I've ever been in a genuine one my whole life. Plants are alien to me. Biology has always been a byword for "let's study animals and humans" and never anything else while I was in school.
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An uncultivated forest is a magical environment. Theres so much stuff that can do the strangest things and if you touch the wrong part you may loose a finger.

But sadly, or luckily depending on your perspective, our forests have been pacified.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Around here, they teach this stuff in middle school biology, so I hadn't even considered it might be different elsewhere.

Then again, half the country is a giant forest so it's a bit more relevant.
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Codex said:
I live in a desert. Only tree that grows here naturally are Palm trees, primarily date trees.

I think forests are magical environments. I don't think I've ever been in a genuine one my whole life. Plants are alien to me. Biology has always been a byword for "let's study animals and humans" and never anything else while I was in school.
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I learned the biology of tropical Oceania, which is why I keep thinking things like mudskippers and mangroves are universal. This sort of thing is why I made it so you need to stack books from different cultures to get more than a +5 bonus.

Angelform said:
We will never have the AP to check but I have to wonder how aware the Nordland lumberjacks were of the unusual nature of the trees they chopped. On the one hand trees with firing platforms seem noteworthy. On the other if they never saw trees from other places they might just assume it is normal.
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The Old World's forests are a tad more exotic than the ones on Earth. Bloodsedge tries to grab people with their branches to dissolve them with the acid released by its trunk, Grave Grass fires giant spikes upwards if stepped on, and feral Allure flowers can grow large enough to take off an unwary hand. Compared to most Old World forests, logging in Laurelorn was much more 'normal', straightforward, safe, and profitable.

Burned_Cookie said:
That approach seems very flawed, as it is a simple physical task. Push button and save image is a task id rather give a computer than a human, so I'd make sense to boot that to the more simpler part of the brain.

But while I strongly disagree with the conclusions they are drawing, me having aknee jerk reflex doesn't invalidate my existence either, that is some very interesting data, thanks for linking it.
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The idea that the conscious mind is a mere observer that has tricked itself into thinking it's in control is one that I find more convincing than it probably deserves if I think about it too much, which is most likely a result of personal baggage rather than how objectively likely it might be.

Burned_Cookie said:
Aren't they the ones with the giant axions? I may be confusing my sea critters though, my understanding of the oceans is surface level only.

…

Get it, because water has a surface?

…

I'll sea myself out. :p
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Axials, maybe? I think axions is a physics thing.
 
Boney said:
Axials, maybe? I think axions is a physics thing.
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Axons, actually, I typod. (Because of the physics thing actually, wikipedia says those have something to do with the sun?)

Codex said:
Anime is one of the most contentious subjects on the web. You say one opinion and people will turn you into sliced bread soon after.
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How dare you make such a ludicrous claim!

[50 page rant on why it's not contentious at all and clearly my position is the only true one]

:p
 
Boney said:
I don't see what science fiction has to do with it.
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It comes from going with the argument the other way. What is the difference between the ability of a sunflower to follow the passage of sun through the sky, and the very same ability of a solar panel module? Same purpose, same stimulus, same result. If one can be classified as emotion, surely so can the other? And that's some of the simple robots we routinely build.

(I also can be rather dense to certain external stimuli and often do not understand if my interlocutor wants do drop the topic. Sorry?)
 
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