Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Sparsebeard]

Here is the thing, these are the kind of people who react to someone peeking beneath their magical protection by killing civilians in job lots, in recompense for that alone they deserve the torch, I do not care what they are doing here, or do be more exact I do not care enough to tell the Kislevites, no it's cool forget your murdered citizens. It would at this point be wholly unacceptable to the state of Kiselv to let these people pass, recall the spiel last update about protecting their land

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I understand the point about wanting Athen Loren to pay for murdering civilians. But if the result is a weakening of two non-chaos factions when a war with chaos could break out at any time...

It's the kind of hard decisions a Grey Wizard needs to do. And what is irking me is more the fact that we don't know what is happening in those woods so blundering is so easy. Our present course of action of bringing Boris might even make things much worst if our actions end up butterfying him dead by bringing him into a deadly trap that he wouldn't have made it into without our help.

Not that I'm saying our current actions aren't good, only that no scouting seems much more risky (to Boris, Kislev, the World and Mathilde herself). A strong Kislev might be just as important to the Old World's safety than the Waystone Project, perhaps even more in the short term.

We might not be totally ready to scout spirit infested forests... but it seems we are still the best option availlable by far. And since the other option is to enter the forest blindly anyway (but with a very visible warhost), I'd prefer to have some idea of what is waiting for us.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Even if the Elves have a good reason to invade another nations sovereign territory, murder innocent villagers and lure the local nobleman into a trap, that still doesn't make any of the above actually okay or permissable.

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Though it does have to be said that honestly not understanding why such actions are permissible is why Athen Loren doesn't get along with anyone.

Even the dark elf's are better at Dip, if only because they know how to pretend.

 

[DragonParadox]

I understand the point about wanting Athen Loren to pay for murdering civilians. But if the result is a weakening of two non-chaos factions when a war with chaos could break out at any time...

It's the kind of hard decisions a Grey Wizard needs to do. And what is irking me is more the fact that we don't know what is happening in those woods so blundering is so easy. Our present course of action of bringing Boris might een make things much worst if our actions end up butterfying him dead by bringing him into a deadly trap that he wouldn't have made it into without our help.

Not that I'm saying our current actios aren't good, only that no scouting seems much more risky (to Boris, Kislev, the World and Mathilde herself). A strong Kislev might be just as important to the Old World's safety than the Waystone Project, perhaps even more in the short term.

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The thing is this is not our decision, this is Kislev's decision because they are their murdered civilians and Kiselv is not interested in the abstract good of 'non-Chaos' but in maintaining its own sovereign territory and not tree -murdered citizens. We do not have the power to make peace and peace will not be made.

As for this potentially killing Boris, canon character or less I care less about the indeterminate chance of him dying then I do about the very high chance of Mathilde dying trying to play infiltration games with Drycha in the woods. If the world can survive without Karl Franz it can live without Boris Ursus. I am not going to vote to put Mathilde's head on the chopping block because he might maybe die.

 

[Mopman43]

If we want to make sure Boris doesn't die, than vote to stick by him when the fighting starts.

Mathilde has thoroughly prepared for this kinda thing.

 

[mathymancer]

If you're desperate for information on the motives of Athel Loren, vote to find the Boyar. It's unlikely that merely seeing their forces will grant us some insight into why they are here, while it is much more likely - though by no means guaranteed - that questioning the man they are apparently trying to trap will tell us something. It's also far less likely to get Mathilde killed.

Also, from a practical perspective, '[ ] Find the Boyar' has slightly more than twice as many votes as '[ ] Scout the Shirokij', so it has a better shot of actually winnig.
...though in all likelihood neither will win, since '[ ] Investigate the missing leyline' has twice as many votes as '[ ] Find the Boyar'.

 

[Alratan]

Consider that if this is Drycha it's very unlikely there are any Asrai here; as she hates them and would kill them.

 

[DragonParadox]

Consider that if this is Drycha it's very unlikely there are any Asrai here; as she hates them and would kill them.

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Yup, we would have to somehow talk to the murder trees. I mean I guess she speaks elvish, so that is the very bottom of the barrel basics of diplomacy covered, whether she would deign to speak to a human under any circumstances is anyone's guess, but I am going to bet no.

 

[K von Carstein]

Also, a weakened Kislev is dangerous for the whole world. If Boris dies due to our reluctance to take risks, it throws much in the air. And as I mentionned, it's not even as if not scouting will neccessarily be less dangerous to Mathilde since we'll probably be accompagny the Kislev warhost into the forest. Which, if we do it blindly, might actually be more dangerous than scouting.

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Yes, but a dead Mathilde is the end of the quest.

I disagree with that. During the assault, there's many bodies to throw between us and the enemy. The scouting would be done alone, against a well-prepared enemy very good at using Ulgu, on grounds they're naturally adapted too. Going there with many armed men us definitely safer than alone.

 

[Doordox]

Yes, but a dead Mathilde is the end of the quest.

I disagree with that. During the assault, there's many bodies to throw between us and the enemy. The scouting would be done alone, against a well-prepared enemy very good at using Ulgu, on grounds they're naturally adapted too. Going there with many armed men us definitely safer than alone.

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Mathilde scouted alone plenty of times during the retaking of 8 Peaks - she's more than shown that she can take care of herself when travelling solo.

 

[DragonParadox]

Mathilde scouted alone plenty of times during the retaking of 8 Peaks - she's more than shown that she can take care of herself when travelling solo.

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A tunnel is not a forest I gave this comparison before, but I think it is worth doing again, without lack of experience in dealing with the terrain that would be as if we had arrived in K8P and found out that the overall Skaven commander was Deathmaster Snitch. What do you do in that case?

I would argue that the answer should not be 'we can take them' and then go out alone to face the enemy.

 

[Valmond]

Mathilde has the best change of surviving a scouting trip into the forests.
Best is not the same as good, and is probably largely influenced by her ability to fight when discovered.
These are not merely elves who live in a forest, they are a forest, we are talking of going into a forest to scout what almost literal trees are doing when we have little to no experience with actual forests.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Yes, but a dead Mathilde is the end of the quest.

I disagree with that. During the assault, there's many bodies to throw between us and the enemy. The scouting would be done alone, against a well-prepared enemy very good at using Ulgu, on grounds they're naturally adapted too. Going there with many armed men us definitely safer than alone.

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I can definitively understand both those points even if I disagree.

But leading conventionnal forces in a forest with entrenched super-guerrilla forces already is dangereous. Doing so without any scouting seems almost suicidal. If the enemy just lets us get deep into the forest then starts picking us appart without exposing themselves we are in trouble.

On the other hand, if we can know more about the enemy's type of troops, any stationnary targets that the enemy must defend, what the hell is happening with beastmen, etc. It gives us a much better chance to have a workable plan.

Another alternative would be to try to convince the Kislevites to wait until they have truly overwhelming forces but even then, it's still leading an army into a forest filled with guerrilla forces blindly.

 

[Codex]

Greenskins and Skaven are not magically attuned to rocky environments and capable of melding themselves to rock and transporting between walls at the blink of an eye. Dryads and Forest Spirits are perfectly in tune with forests, and the place we'd be going into is a magical creepy forest that has a warhost full of them.

The situations are not the same. You can't even compare the environmental superiority of a Forest Spirit in a Magic Forest vs Greenskins and Skaven in a mountain Dwarf Hold.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Mathilde scouted alone plenty of times during the retaking of 8 Peaks - she's more than shown that she can take care of herself when travelling solo.

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Ultimately, the problem is that lady mathy and the battle field and in the command tent is worth more then Masister Mathy was.

If we hand the stats of the retaking of 8 peak, I would probably vote for scouting. That's were we could do the most good. Scouting was are thing, and not that much else

But we are just to useful in To many ways to risk in a scout action now. We are an battle wizard, not a great one, but a battle wizards, a logistic dream with Rite of way, a good commander, and a great researcher.

Mathy is just with to much to risk scouting behind enemy lines now.

 

[DragonParadox]

I can definitively understand both those points even if I disagree.

But leading conventionnal forces in a forest with entrenched super-guerrilla forces already is dangereous. Doing so without any scouting seems almost suicidal. If the enemy just lets us get deep into the forest then starts picking us appart without exposing themselves we are in trouble.

On the other hand, if we can know more about the enemy's type of troops, any stationnary targets that the enemy must defend, what the hell is happening with beastmen, etc. It gives us a much better chance to have a workable plan.

Another alternative would be to try to convince the Kislevites to wait until they have truly overwhelming forces but even then, it's still leading an army into a forest filled with guerrilla forces blindly.

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The thing is we are not leading the force, the Kislevites are and we do not have the pull to stop them, all we can do is help or leave. If they all die well they did it by their own will and in defense of their land.

 

[K von Carstein]

Mathilde scouted alone plenty of times during the retaking of 8 Peaks - she's more than shown that she can take care of herself when travelling solo.

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That was tunnels and urban settlements. The enemy was either orcs or Skavens (who were busy fighting among themselves).

Here it's a forest that's already dangerous by itself, and now filled with enemies that can disguise themselves as trees. They're led by a powerful Ulgu caster (probably older than the Colleges), potentially a named one. The situation is very different than in K8P.

 

[Valmond]

I suspect we could walk through half of the enemy army without even seeing them if they chose to remain stealthy.
Like, how are we supposed to recognice one tree from another?
Sure some of them will be magical, but with a demigod tree spirit in the forest a non magical tree is going to look lot like a magical tree with all the background magic.

 

[Doordox]

Fair play to all, you've convinced me! Scouting seems too risky compared to what else we could be doing, given everyone's very well reasoned arguments about sneaky murder-trees. Let's bring all of her organizational skills to bear, then.

 

[DragonParadox]

That was tunnels and urban settlements. The enemy was either orcs or Skavens (who were busy fighting among themselves).

Here it's a forest that's already dangerous by itself, and now filled with enemies that can disguise themselves as trees. They're led by a powerful Ulgu caster (probably older than the Colleges), potentially a named one. The situation is very different than in K8P.

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I am pretty sure that Drycha is at least 4000 years old given that she was there when the Asrai became Asrai and she could be literally as old as Athel Loren which means predating the coming of the Old Ones in their silver ships tens of thousands of years ago.

Don't ask me how a primordial forest was able to live on the ice ball that was pre-Old Ones Warhammer World ask GW.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Also, what happened with the Hag Witches? Are they all dead/missing/we don't know? It seems like they might have more pieces of the puzzle, but it would be in Athen Loren's interest to silence them.

Perhaps we could try to get their or the Hedgefolk's support (although I don't know how we'd convience the Hedgefolk...) in getting more info on what is happening in the forest.

 

[Mopman43]

I am pretty sure that Drycha is at least 4000 years old given that she was there when the Asrai became Asrai and she could be literally as old as Athel Loren which means predating the coming of the Old Ones in their silver ships tens of thousands of years ago.

Don't ask me how a primordial forest was able to live on the ice ball that was pre-Old Ones Warhammer World ask GW.

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Was the forest there before the Old Ones?

My understanding was that the timeline went Ice Ball -> Old Ones -> Planet Warms -> Giant Forest

 

[Codex]

I am pretty sure that Drycha is at least 4000 years old given that she was there when the Asrai became Asrai and she could be literally as old as Athel Loren which means predating the coming of the Old Ones in their silver ships tens of thousands of years ago.

Don't ask me how a primordial forest was able to live on the ice ball that was pre-Old Ones Warhammer World ask GW.

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I'm pretty sure she's not that old. The grand majority of those old enough to exist before the Old Ones are dead. The only mentioned ones that survived the Coming of Chaos were the Trio of Ancients, Adanhu, Coeddil and Durthu. Adanhu's dead, so really only Durthu and Coeddil. There used to be Oakheart in Avelorn back in 6th Edition, but he was retconned in the new lore so that Durthu is actually Oakheart now, that's just the name that Avelornians use for him.

 

[Mopman43]

Was the forest there before the Old Ones?

My understanding was that the timeline went Ice Ball -> Old Ones -> Planet Warms -> Giant Forest

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According to the 8th edition Wood Elves book:

Long ago, before the coming of Chaos, before even the rise of the Elves, a great forest took root upon the world. Like much that came to exist in that halcyon time, the forest was the work of the mysterious Old Ones, who planted its seeds and saplings as part of their grand experiment.

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So yeah, roughly right.

 

[K von Carstein]

I'm pretty sure she's not that old. The grand majority of those old enough to exist before the Old Ones are dead. The only mentioned ones that survived the Coming of Chaos were the Trio of Ancients, Adanhu, Coeddil and Durthu. Adanhu's dead, so really only Durthu and Coeddil. There used to be Oakheart in Avelorn back in 6th Edition, but he was retconned in the new lore so that Durthu is actually Oakheart now, that's just the name that Avelornians use for him.

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So what beings preceding the OO survived till the present? Durthu and Coeddil, all the dragon-ogres, maybe some dragons and creatures in the abyss? I don't see more, at least without counting the Choas Gods.

 

[DragonParadox]

So what beings preceding the OO survived till the present? Durthu and Coeddil, all the dragon-ogres, maybe some dragons and creatures in the abyss? I don't see more, at least without counting the Choas Gods.

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There is Triton, the last of the Prometheans.