Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Resonant]

This is an assumption you are making. You do understand that, right? We don't know if it's the grey college bubble or the battle magic destruction that is the usual behavior, since we don't know either of the two spells.

We don't even know if one of the two behaviors is "usual", or if they are both riffs off of a third base state.

All I am asking for is epistemic humility. Don't present your assumptions as facts.



The, uh, same paragraphs in which he was cautioning is about how much we barely understand the surface levels of this sort of a secret? That statement?

Because it feels a LOT like you are taking what he cautioned is to read as personal speculation on the part of our patriarch and presenting it as inarguable fact.


Please, please, please just ease up on the "this is OBVIOUS" attitude for stuff we don't know really? It's an aggravating way of "discussing" things.

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I'm directly quoting WoG so how is that ambiguous? Boney has stated before that we cannot use the Shadow Realm to fast-travel because it doesn't have a bubble like the Grey College does, because it's normally an infinite hellspace of Destruction.

The natural state of the 'shadow realm' is thin enough to crush air. It needs to be manually altered for something to occupy in and remain intact, as Teclis did for the Grey College.

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Here, have the exact quote on the "natural state" of the shadow realm. This was previously already answered by boney, so it's not an unclear topic to argue over. They are facts because the QM has made it so.

 

[naths]

Making sure that Mathilde or Heidi aren't Alric's or Mira's next hobby.

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please elaborate?
I dont see why Mira would make trouble for us just because we gave her more than she requested.
and regarding Alric, isnt it better to not openly interfere if that is what we are worried about?

like, im really serious here. I would like to understand the reasoning behind the 'let's bring in Mira/the empress into our investigation' support in this thread.
I am feeling like I am missing some context here, so would somebody please explain this?

 

[DragonParadox]

The, uh, same paragraphs in which he was cautioning is about how much we barely understand the surface levels of this sort of a secret? That statement?

Because it feels a LOT like you are taking what he cautioned is to read as personal speculation on the part of our patriarch and presenting it as inarguable fact.


Please, please, please just ease up on the "this is OBVIOUS" attitude for stuff we don't know really? It's an aggravating way of "discussing" things.

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It was a random aside about not wanting to learn the spell at all because of fear of throwing one into the warp, not an in depth conversation about the nature of Ulgu. Reproducing the information we were given by the closest thing we have to a expert seemed reasonable to do especially as I did not recall precisely which LM had even told us before other commentators chimed in and did not think it was relevant enough to hunt down the update. If you did feel like going in depth on that that is entirely fine by me, but I would enjoy this quest considerably less if I had to hedge all statements like I was writing a scientific paper all the time so I cannot promise to do so.

 

[IronFist]

And the biggest villain of all: Abelhelm.
He managed to hurt her so much it still twinges even now.

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Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more

 

[Jreengus]

That can't be how it'll work. Even if Boney makes us repick, that means picking both games the system since those are our only two options. The obvious result of this is that the correct one will be written last while the wrong one is presented prior. That was my whole point of it being wasted, certainty of the correct one over available Actions. We're not pressured for time that this was necessary.

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Picking both doesn't game anything, since I haven't specified which action to take first in the plan Boney will either pick based on Mathildes assumptions or flip a coin or something. Either way I doubt he would deliberately pick an the order to either screw us or to help us.

 

[Glau]

Here, have the exact quote on the "natural state" of the shadow realm. This was previously already answered by boney, so it's not an unclear topic to argue over.

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Ah. A buried word of God post. Go figure. Doesn't really change the problem with the pit of shades metaphor though.

How does it actually work to be able to pull things in? If there's no space for them to be brought into in the first place then we have a blade or a wall. Not a pit. Certainly nothing that would, you know, have any space for things to fall into.

And so that's my core problem. There's something weird going on with the metaphor, which strongly implies that the pit works by things falling into it, and the dimension that cuts things as they touch it because not even air can fit inside.


I hope this is clear.

 

[Altom]

I think that surveling both is a good idea, but also, I think we need to get more info from the mansion
So voting with approval votes/ Also, as one can see from my vote there are 2 different plans called "plan ritual centre"

[x] Plan Look and Learn
- [x] Surveil the spa Unfahigers
- [x] Surveil the hunting lodge Unfahigers
- [x] Ransak Krieglitz Manor

[x] Plan: Ritual Centre
- [x] Surveil the spa Unfahigers
- [x] Surveil the hunting lodge Unfahigers
- [x] Research: Underworld Turbulence
[x] Plan: Ritual Centre
- [x] Surveil the spa Unfahigers
- [x] Surveil the hunting lodge Unfahigers
- [x] Research: Alberich's life
[x] Play to our Strengths.
- [x] Surveil the spa Unfahigers
- [x] Approach the hunting lodge Unfahigers
- [x] Ransack Krieglitz Manor

 

[Codex]

Ah. A buried word of God post. Go figure. Doesn't really change the problem with the pit of shades metaphor though.

How does it actually work to be able to pull things in? If there's no space for them to be brought into in the first place then we have a blade or a wall. Not a pit. Certainly nothing that would, you know, have any space for things to fall into.

And so that's my core problem. There's something weird going on with the metaphor, which strongly implies that the pit works by things falling into it, and the dimension that cuts things as they touch it because not even air can fit inside.


I hope this is clear.

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The Doylist reasoning for this is that Pit of Shades was more of a Pit in earlier editions and then became a bit more ambigous in 8th Edition.

I can't help you with the Watson part.

 

[mathymancer]

None of the leading plans have us interrogate or approach any Unfahigers. Why not [ ] Approach the hunting lodge Unfahigers? We'll probably get the information that surveiling them will give, and possibly more.

So I think I'll approval vote for
[X] Play to our Strengths.
But really what I want is Ritual Centre with 'Surveil the hunting lodge Unfahigers' changed to 'Approach the hunting lodge Unfahigers'

 

[Jreengus]

None of the leading plans have us interrogate or approach any Unfahigers. Why not [ ] Approach the hunting lodge Unfahigers? We'll probably get the information that surveiling them will give, and possibly more.

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My logic is that if the centre of the ritual is at the spa all approaching the hunting lodge people does is potentially tip off Alric, especially if we approach them then ignore them because the actual targets are elsewhere. It would be easy for them to assume we have abandoned them like Alric did and for one to try and trade knowledge of our involvement to Alric for his protection.

 

[Swantree]

Picking both doesn't game anything, since I haven't specified which action to take first in the plan Boney will either pick based on Mathildes assumptions or flip a coin or something. Either way I doubt he would deliberately pick an the order to either screw us or to help us.

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Okay, I think I need another way to interpret your prior post then.

This post

That can't be how it'll work. Even if Boney makes us repick, that means picking both games the system since those are our only two options. The obvious result of this is that the correct one will be written last while the wrong one is presented prior. That was my whole point of it being wasted, certainty of the correct one over available Actions. We're not pressured for time that this was necessary.

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Is responding to this section.

@Boney can you confirm that if the surveil option Mathilde decides to do second becomes redundant after the first surveil she will skip that action and let us pick to do something else?

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From my basis, there are two options. But in yours there are three, them being Hunting, Spa, or Alric.

You said that if one was already correct, can we effectively refund the AP for the other surveillance. Yes I am paraphrasing, but I understood this as the connotations.

I see this as gaming the system because this effectively does the same as doing just one of them, but having better odds. Because if you do hit, then you get an extra AP at no cost.

I proposed that Boney would still take the AP because the implied cost would be the certain waste of an AP for certainty and swiftness, with the benefit being higher odds of hitting.

You stated you doubt he would do this because this would be deliberately screwing us. I think this is a fair point. I do think in my opinion that the chance that Boney would give us extra AP because we hit is very much impossible.

 

[Sparsebeard]

While I'm not sure about bringing in the Empress this is the closest to what I want :

[x] Plan: Interested Parties

 

[Tobtorp]

My logic is that if the centre of the ritual is at the spa all approaching the hunting lodge people does is potentially tip off Alric, especially if we approach them then ignore them because the actual targets are elsewhere. It would be easy for them to assume we have abandoned them like Alric did and for one to try and trade knowledge of our involvement to Alric for his protection.

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Why would that tip of alric? He's holed up in the spa and hasn't come out in ages AFAIK. And the hunting lodge unfahigers are the ones who he is not interested in. He maybe could find out about us later on but at that point we should be away again, and he does not have the political capital (if he doesn't get it from this attempt) to do anything about us.

 

[pucflek]

I think Pit of Shadows is called Pit of Shadows because it looks like a hole. You know whats another word for hole? A pit. They are not mutually interchangeable words in every context, but its not that much of a leap tbh.

 

[Swantree]

Why would that tip of alric? He's holed up in the spa and hasn't come out in ages AFAIK. And the hunting lodge unfahigers are the ones who he is not interested in. He maybe could find out about us later on but at that point we should be away again, and he does not have the political capital (if he doesn't get it from this attempt) to do anything about us.

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We don't actually know where Alric is. While he might not care about the Hunting Lodge, he still needs to find a way to deal with either the ritual, or the effects of it. His plan should include observing the Hunting Lodge since the circumstances point to them being the next victims.

 

[mathymancer]

My logic is that if the centre of the ritual is at the spa all approaching the hunting lodge people does is potentially tip off Alric, especially if we approach them then ignore them because the actual targets are elsewhere. It would be easy for them to assume we have abandoned them like Alric did and for one to try and trade knowledge of our involvement to Alric for his protection.

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The hunting lodge group is probably desperate enough that if we tell them not to mention anything to Alric - who, remember, left them to fend for themselves - they'll agree.
Honestly I don't think running to Alric to tell him about the new person is likely, and I think we can approach them in disguise if we're that worried.

And even if they are not the targets, they might know something. We don't have a lot of time and I think we should go for whatever will give us the maximum amount of information. Also, it's what Regimand says he would have done, so I trust him to help us be smart about it.

 

[Lampshade]

I'll admit I hadn't considered that picking right could completely invalidate the other option but I assume in that case Boney would let us repick the second option...

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That can't be how it'll work. ...

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I don't see any logical conflict between arguing that the second investigation is redundant and voting for plans that include it.

 

[Jreengus]

Okay, I think I need another way to interpret your prior post then.

This post

Is responding to this section.

From my basis, there are two options. But in yours there are three, them being Hunting, Spa, or Alric.

You said that if one was already correct, can we effectively refund the AP for the other surveillance. Yes I am paraphrasing, but I understood this as the connotations.

I see this as gaming the system because this effectively does the same as doing just one of them, but having better odds. Because if you do hit, then you get an extra AP at no cost.

I proposed that Boney would still take the AP because the implied cost would be the certain waste of an AP for certainty and swiftness, with the benefit being higher odds of hitting.

You stated you doubt he would do this because this would be deliberately screwing us. I think this is a fair point. I do think in my opinion that the chance that Boney would give us extra AP because we hit is very much impossible.

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I'm not 100% on what you are saying here so to be clear here is my interpretation of what will happen if my plan wins:

1. Boney will decide an order for the actions based on Mathilde's priority
2. Mathilde will work through that list in order.
3. If after completing one action a later action becomes completely redundant Mathilde will skip it and next turn will have three actions.

So for example lets say Mathilde prioritises the non-surveilance action first and decides to go Spa second then lodge third. the three possible options are:

1. Spa Centre: Mathilde does the other action, surveils the Spa and realises it is the centre and that hunting lodge cannot be involved, next turn starts early with three actions to spend.
2. Hunting Lodge Centre: Mathilde does the other action, surveils the Spa and clears it, surveils the hunting lodge, next turn starts on schedule.
3. Albric Centre: Mathilde does the other action, surveils the Spa and clears it, surveils the hunting lodge and clears it, next turn starts on schedule.

We are not getting any advantage in picking both surveils, beyond simply cancelling the disadvantage that comes from having to preplan a chunk of three weeks by not being a mindless automaton slaved to their preprogrammed calendar.

Why would that tip of alric? He's holed up in the spa and hasn't come out in ages AFAIK. And the hunting lodge unfahigers are the ones who he is not interested in. He maybe could find out about us later on but at that point we should be away again, and he does not have the political capital (if he doesn't get it from this attempt) to do anything about us.

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The risk of a tip off is from one of the hunting lodgers trading info to Alric to get into the spa. Something that increases if we let them know we are here then ignore them because we know they aren't the target.

 

[Rafin]

The default assumption that nonhumans can't talk or think is one that wouldn't really take hold in the Empire, not when it has Dwarves and Halflings and Elves and Ogres and sometimes the goats grow arms and try to pillage your cities.

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Well, all the "good" races (from an Old World Human perspective) are very similar looking to Humans. They are all hairless apes for one. They all have the same skin color variations or less (except for the greenish Elves who are also harder to talk to and understand). Humanoids with features similar to non-apes are near universally considered Beastmen.

So while Lizardmen are probably seen as sentient, I could easily see a massive preexisting bias against them and an underestimating of, if not their power and ability, then at least their value as reliable allies.

Though I might have missed a part of the discussion. I am only talking about how your average Imperial leadership might see them. Not how Mathilde or other sufficiently educated wizards would.

She embezzled, she stole, she lied, she stole information as a spymaster. Mathilde didn't really literally see Stirland as her purpose, duty, or life's work.

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As someone who was around back then and keeping in mind that Mathilde's motivation and mindset at least in part reflect the thread and its discussions between chapters, I have to disagree.

Mathilde would have embezzled either way, because of her crippling debt. She did all those things you mentioned as a Spymaster, but not because she didn't consider her job important. She did it because she didn't want to die. And yet when it came to the Spymaster job, a genuine motivation to aid Stirland and make Abelhelm happy was usually the top priority. Mathilde spent well below average actions on her own completely unrelated pet projects, instead putting time and effort into Stirland. I don't know if she saw it as her eternal purpose or singular life's work, but why should that be the bar? It was a job, if an important one. And she didn't only do it well, she would have continued to do it well for the foreseeable future if Roswita hadn't fired her.

As an example of the thread's/Mathilde's dedication to Stirland, after Abelhelm's death and the soon returning normal half-year turns one of our top priorities was either making sure Abelhelm's progeny gets to inherit smoothly (in case other factions wanted to preempt that in another Elector Meet) or to push for someone from within the current Council of Stirland. Mathilde did ultimately commit massive theft from Stirland (far outstripping that little embezzlement that was near expected of her), but she did it in petty revenge for being fired, not because she didn't care about the job in the first place.

Also, if being a spy/mole for another party was enough to disqualify an advisor from truly being considered as holding their job then Stirland pretty much didn't have a council in his reign. Only two advisors and double that in moles.

 

[Tobtorp]

We don't actually know where Alric is. While he might not care about the Hunting Lodge, he still needs to find a way to deal with either the ritual, or the effects of it. His plan should include observing the Hunting Lodge since the circumstances point to them being the next victims.

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Nope, we know he's holed up with the actually influencial members of the dynasty in the spa.

Regimand has tailored today's disguise to Alys, and today she is meeting with a plain-looking and middle-aged clerk with ink-stained fingers and an unfortunate taste in hats. "Found them," he says as soon as Cloak Activity forms around the two of you. "The current head of the family and the members in his favour are holed up with Alric in Bad Dankerode, on the external southeastern flank of the Taalbaston."

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[Resonant]

Ah. A buried word of God post. Go figure. Doesn't really change the problem with the pit of shades metaphor though.

How does it actually work to be able to pull things in? If there's no space for them to be brought into in the first place then we have a blade or a wall. Not a pit. Certainly nothing that would, you know, have any space for things to fall into.

And so that's my core problem. There's something weird going on with the metaphor, which strongly implies that the pit works by things falling into it, and the dimension that cuts things as they touch it because not even air can fit inside.


I hope this is clear.

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It's an infinitely tiny strip of space separating the material realm from the Aethyr. Opening a portal creates a suction force from air pressure as it tries to fill the intervening gap. There is technically space to pull things in, just that it's atomically small.

 

[silentorphan]

Also, if being a spy/mole for another party was enough to disqualify an advisor from truly being considered as holding their job then Stirland pretty much didn't have a council in his reign. Only two advisors and double that in moles.

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Didn't Mathilde admit that outright to Roswita later on? Not exactly moles, just...tools. Or mutually beneficial partners? (Apparently Abelhelm's charisma stat was higher than I remember?)

"Did you think it was an accident?" She turns to look at you. "Wilhelmina was his friend. Anton was..." you search for words that won't besmirch your friend. "Unsuited. Kasmir was a spy for the Grand Theogonist. Schultz was loyal to Talabecland. The first Marshal was an embezzler."

"And you?" she says, with an unexpected verbal thrust that would have done her father proud.

"I was a tool of the Lahmians," you say simply, and her eyes widen. "I can't explain Anton, but the rest was all your father's work. He spent years arguing with Kasmir before he finally saw sense. Schultz's loyalty was bought by never touching trade on the northern border. De Verezzo he shot in the head, and if you've ever wondered what that stain on the table of the Council Room is, it's him. And for the entire time I knew him, his contacts in the Witch Hunters were dismantling the conspiracy that had me entrapped." You nod at her hip, where a Dwarf boarding axe hung. "That's your weapon as a warrior. The Council is your weapon as a ruler. If you don't hone it, it will fail you, and you will die."

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[mathymancer]

1. Spa Centre: Mathilde does the other action, surveils the Spa and realises it is the centre and that hunting lodge cannot be involved, next turn starts early with three actions to spend.
2. Hunting Lodge Centre: Mathilde does the other action, surveils the Spa and clears it, surveils the hunting lodge, next turn starts on schedule.
3. Albric Centre: Mathilde does the other action, surveils the Spa and clears it, surveils the hunting lodge and clears it, next turn starts on schedule.

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This assumes that one and only one group of Unfahigers is a part of the ritual, which we have no reason to assume. It might be the case, it might not:

"So their metaphysical location would be on them instead of on their 'home', so it'd be either at the spa or at the lodge, or both."

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And since we can't be sure Mathilde will check both if we vote to check both.

 

[Tobtorp]

Didn't Mathilde admit that outright to Roswita later on? Not exactly moles, just...tools. Or mutually beneficial partners? (Apparently Abelhelm's charisma stat was higher than I remember?)

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Fuck, you made me miss abelhelm again...

 

[Gap]

[x] Plan: Ritual Centre
-[x] Surveil the spa Unfahigers
-[x] Surveil the hunting lodge Unfahigers
-[x] Research: Alberich's life