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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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kingreaper said:
So here's my problem with taking:
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact: Kurgan enchanted weapons
over
-[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[ ] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep

As I see it there are three likely outcomes to studying the Kurgan Weapons:

1) They're subtly evil. We destroy them.
2) They're regular enchantments. We have a couple of enchanted weapons to do something with.
3) They're unusual enchantments. Making any use of the insights we gain goes on the shelf of "we'll get to it eventually" under Arcane AV, Windherding, Branarhune etc.

At best we're getting a few (likely minor) enchanted weapons, and another mystery that we'll do nothing with.

Meanwhile Windherding gets us a specific enchanted item, alongside developing a unique magical technique (and it is a skill, not a trait, so it's almost certain to be teachable to the right students) that's both relevant to waystones and extremely useful for future projects of the imperial colleges of magic.

From my POV it looks like the best case for the Kurgan weapons is just barely equal to the expected outcome for windherding.
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You're discounting the fact that for efficiency's sake we want to use all our WEBMAT employees on the same turn. We've been told that if we leave someone idle for a turn, we should use them the next two; one can imagine that it might be useful next turn to leave all our WEBMAT employees idle so we can make use of Overwork and get a ton of stuff done that only Mathilde can do. Leaving Max idle this turn requires us to use him next turn.

Chewing through our backlog bit by bit isn't bad at all. My hope is that the Kurgan investigation will work like the Cathayan Jet or the Moulder equipment and we donate it for CF. If it's super weird, so what? We looted it for a reason.
 
Why are we so keen to get the framework action done when it's far from certain that we've gathered enough knowhow from the human side to lure out the dwarfs' and elves' most valuable secrets?


[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
 
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picklepikkl said:
You're discounting the fact that for efficiency's sake we want to use all our WEBMAT employees on the same turn. We've been told that if we leave someone idle for a turn, we should use them the next two; one can imagine that it might be useful next turn to leave all our WEBMAT employees idle so we can make use of Overwork and get a ton of stuff done that only Mathilde can do. Leaving Max idle this turn requires us to use him next turn.

Chewing through our backlog bit by bit isn't bad at all. My hope is that the Kurgan investigation will work like the Cathayan Jet or the Moulder equipment and we donate it for CF. If it's super weird, so what? We looted it for a reason.
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We've had something useful for Max to do every turn since he first started working under us - I don't think we need to be so cautious about the possibility that next turn might be the first time that we don't have use for a skilled investigator, super-scribe, who we're considering training as a gyrocopter pilot and is decent in a fight.

And in the unlikely event that we're so absolutely blown-off-our-feet (by stuff that doesn't involve adventures, research, training or paper-writing) that we can't do anything with Max, I'm pretty sure that after a decade of constant work he won't be too disappointed. It's not like Egrimm where we're still building the relationship now, Max has already been through a lot with us.
Briefvoice said:
Yeah, but now compare either one against learning rituals, something that seems likely to be of importance when it comes to understanding how Waystones are enchanted because (at least for humans) only ritual magic has that much power.
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I don't think it's possible to compare them with the same level of directness.

I feel like windherding is closer to "making an item that controls the flow of all eight winds" than rituals are, but rituals do have a lot of versatility and it's entirely plausible that Waystones need both (with Elves providing the windherding with relative ease because they can do all eight parts with one person) - not to mention that ritual lessons would probably include some knowledge of how to pull on leylines and/or waystones, and (going by WFRP 2e) might even involve producing the same effect no matter what wind you channel, which is definitely relevant to both windherding and the way waystones work.

The comparison is simply more cloudy because the results are more different - it's like trying to compare sword training to studying Eonir politics.
 
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Siual said:
Why are we so keen to get the framework action done when it's far from certain that we've gathered enough knowhow from the human side to lure out the dwarfs' and elves' most valuable secrets?
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Because of this quote:

With the cooperation of the Order of Light and the Order of Life secured, if not yet fully paid for, you now have quite an array of contributors, including inheritors of each of the major parties that was present for the raising of the Old World's Runestones - Thorek for the Dwarves, Lord Hatalath for the Elves, and Elrisse and Tochter for the humans. While there's undoubtedly still value to be found among other groups, this foundation should bring enough perspectives to the table that a groundwork established here and now should be able to incorporate all of those you're likely to be able to bring in in the future. Part of you does want to bring in practically every magical tradition on the continent before you begin, but that's hardly practical.
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And the plan you're voting for doesn't bring in any additional knowhow from the human side anyway. It has "Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Frost)" as opposed to recruiting Kislev witches or the Hedgewise or whatever.
 
[X] Plan Starting up debt free

It's worth noting that for Egrimm, who has been under Alric's thumb as a political pawn for far too long, having the chance to thwart his former boss might be pretty cartharic. It's politics yes, but its also sticking it to the guy who has been Egrimm's academical jailor for quite some time.

Also lets not forget that Alric is quite the savvy schemer, even when some of his most recent ploys didn't quite work out. Not making use of Egrimms personal insights into Alrics M.O. would be a severe underestimation of Alrics capability to potentially outplay us.
 
[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan Starting up debt free, Windherd Edition
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages, Windherd Edition

It would seem I have become a single issue voter.
 
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WFRP 4e: Empire in Ruins Companion, page 66
C. -3000 IC
[The Lord of Change] Sheerargetru was one of many Daemons who made their home in what would become the kingdom of Nehekhara. There the Daemon tempted, corrupted and warped all that it touched, ever fearful of the weapon it knew to be its bane. The Daemon persisted there for an age, creating a minor cult of its own. Ultimately an alliance of desert gods lead by Ptra, whose cleansing light was anathema to all servants of the Ruinous Powers, rallied against the Daemons. Sheerargetru and all its kin were driven from the desert and fled to the far north.
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I saw "alliance of gods fighting daemons" and that made me think of DL's theological mysteries, especially the stories of the ones of the gods seeming to walk the world and do stuff. Notable as this is 2500 years after the Coming of Chaos. The book came out literally this month so I doubt it fits into Divided Loyalties but I still think it's a neat bit of lore.
 
So... at this point, I'm really feeling more concerned with not sending Egrimm after Alric than anything else. Also: Currently, only my plan doesn't do that and is in high contention. That is... not good. :confused:

I'm very willing to make/vote for plans, plan variants, or even edit my own plan. Whatever it takes so we don't end up instigating some kind of complete disaster between Egrimm and Alric. I know some people are voting to prioritize windherding, or rituals, or other actions. Would people be willing to vote for a variant of my plan that switches things around to do one(?) of those actions instead?
Waela said:
Adding an approval vote (and keeping the full vote for Way of Stones 'cause it looks like it might become hard to find otherwise).
[X] Way of Stones
-[X] MAX: Learn to pilot the Gyrocopter along with Mathilde
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with one or more members of WEB-MAT (EGRIMM)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Ward of Frost)
-[x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[x] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[X] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood. (NEW)
-[X] Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (Bretonnia)
-[X] The Gambler: Lay the Foundations

[X] Plan Starting up debt free
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You can see all the current plan votes in the vote tally. In the top right of the page is a "Thread Tools" dropdown menu, inside of which is "Vote tally". Clicking that will show you the most recent vote tally someone's run, which will almost always be of the currently running vote. You can also run your own vote tally - I believe this guide is up-to-date enough, though I think it doesn't cover the some of the new (and more complicated) features. Not that those get used much.
Aranfan said:
[X] Plan Starting up debt free

finally we get to learn rituals. I have wanted to do this forever.
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I might be misremembering, but I thought just doing the [] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. action only means Max learns Rituals. Does Mathilde also get to tag along too?
 
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[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan: Jyn+debt free
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[X] Plan Starting up debt free, Windherd Edition

Feel like it a terrible idea to have the former protege of alric who has a incredibly complicated relationship with alric. Who has consdiently told us how great it is to be away from all the college politics, to be away from alric. Starting to emerge from alric shadow make his own identity outside of alric. We just established that we are gonna be a good boss with that we aren't gonna force him to do things he wouldn't want too. Then we go do this bring back all of that and prob reverse a lot of the progress he has made and our relationship too.
 
I feel people are reaching rather hard with the "Egrimm is torn between two paths" Interpretation. The relationship is not that complicated, he really, really does not like the guy, does not want him to succeed, is already spending time with his contacts in the college keeping tabs on him and happily passing on that information to us, etc.

He also doesn't want to shout that to the rooftops of the light college. We can speculate on why, but based on everything else he's said, it seems to me the natural cause is because he's concerned he would look like an ungrateful backstabber to his peers. Not because he in his heart of hearts still has loyalties to Alric.
 
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Derpmind said:
Egrimm's relationship with Alric is an absolute mess. He's his former mentor, his hated boss, his wise teacher, his coddling parent-figure, his rightful Patriarch, his incompetent has-been, and likely someone who's both saved his life and put him in deadly danger. Egrimm rightfully needs a professional therapist. Unfortunately, the best we might manage is finding a Sigmund Freud expy, if anyone.

My point being, the best thing Mathilde can do for Egrimm is keeping him away from Alric so he can work through his feeling and hopefully move on. The worst thing she can do is pushing him back into that total mess and asking him to firmly betray Alric - even if it's "only" investigating him for his political rival. It's asking for some bad juju.
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I respect your opinion here, but I don't see this take on Egrimm's feelings towards Alric as being anything like this clearly established in the text. Maybe I'm just overlooking something, but elsewise it seems like this is just armchair psychoanalysis. And that's not enough to sway my preferences here.
kingreaper said:
As I see it there are three likely outcomes to studying the Kurgan Weapons:

1) They're subtly evil. We destroy them.
2) They're regular enchantments. We have a couple of enchanted weapons to do something with.
3) They're unusual enchantments. Making any use of the insights we gain goes on the shelf of "we'll get to it eventually" under Arcane AV, Windherding, Branarhune etc.

At best we're getting a few (likely minor) enchanted weapons, and another mystery that we'll do nothing with.

Meanwhile Windherding gets us a specific enchanted item, alongside developing a unique magical technique (and it is a skill, not a trait, so it's almost certain to be teachable to the right students) that's both relevant to waystones and extremely useful for future projects of the imperial colleges of magic.

From my POV it looks like the best case for the Kurgan weapons is just barely equal to the expected outcome for windherding.
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Hm, good point. I'll approval vote for:

[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
 
Thomasfoolery said:
He also doesn't want to shout that to the rooftops of the light college. We can speculate on why, but based on everything else he's said, it seems to me the natural cause is because he's concerned he would look like an ungrateful backstabber to his peers. Not because he in his heart of hearts still has loyalties to Alric.
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I've been rereading the first meeting, and I feel like there's a good chance that he feels like his original decision to obey Alric is set in stone - that were Magister Patriarch Alric to give him orders again he would (reluctantly) obey them.
Boney said:
He raises an eyebrow at the sudden change of subject, then shakes his head. "My decision was not whether or not to venture into the Chaos Wastes, or whether or not to assist the Dwarves. My choice was whether to serve my Magister Patriarch and former Master, or not. And I made that decision quite some time ago."
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He may well have sworn an oath that he is utterly unwilling to break - Hysh is a wind of certainty, stability and hierarchy after all, so it attracting (and moulding) people who will not even consider breaking a solemn vow is to be expected.

The question is whether that oath binds him to the Magister Patriarch, which Alric currently is not, or to Alric himself.

And, of course, if it binds him to Alric it raises the further question of why Alric isn't making use of him now; so I suspect it's only as Magister Patriarch that Alric that has that level of power over him.

EDIT: I mean, it's probably just the oath that all wizards swear isn't it? Mathilde thinks of the fact that serving the ideals of the Empire comes before the Magister Patriarch in her college as a massive loophole she could use if needed, but a Light Wizard is unlikely to think of it that way.
 
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Is this a bad time to point out that "trying to help Alric" isn't the only way Egrimm could be a poor choice?

This situation is personal to him. Having him along means there's opportunities for Egrimm to go too far or fuck up because he really wants to catch Alric in something.

We pretty intentionally picked not to sabotage Alric, because we weren't willing to commit to something that might not be to the Empire's benefit. What do we think the consequences will be if Mathilde and Egrimm disagree about how bad a given bit of sabotage will be for the Empire?
 
kingreaper said:
I've been rereading the first meeting, and I feel like there's a good chance that he feels like his original decision to obey Algard is set in stone - that were Magister Patriarch Algard to give him orders again he would (reluctantly) obey them.

He may well have sworn an oath that he is utterly unwilling to break - Hysh is a wind of certainty, stability and hierarchy after all, so it attracting (and moulding) people who will not even consider breaking a solemn vow is to be expected.

The question is whether that oath binds him to the Magister Patriarch, which Algard currently is not, or to Algard himself.

And, of course, if it binds him to Algard it raises the further question of why Algard isn't making use of him now; so I suspect it's only as Magister Patriarch that Algard that has that level of power over him.

EDIT: I mean, it's probably just the oath that all wizards swear isn't it? Mathilde thinks of the fact that serving the ideals of the Empire comes before the Magister Patriarch in her college as a massive loophole she could use if needed, but a Light Wizard is unlikely to think of it that way.
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Alric is Alric, not Algard, who is the Magister Patriarch of the Greys.
 
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